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Erin Bates @ermbates
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Earlier on #eNCA403 from the @StateCaptureCom with Dan Moyane and crossing back to @UvekaR. Mzwanele Manyi resumes this morning, at his third day of speaking under oath. Proceedings are now in session.
#StateCaptureInquiry Chairperson Deputy Chief Justice Raymond Zondo says he will address issues around the inquiry later on. Advocate Vincent Maleka greets Manyi who says, “Morning Mr Maleka, before we start...” Manyi says he wrote to the inquiry on some housekeeping issues.
#StateCaptureInquiry “Mr Maleka’s posture actually confirmed my fears,” says Manyi. He says Maleka’s posture was prosecutorial, not inquisitorial and claims he is being treated as an accused, “here I am here treated as a hostile witness, so to speak” and he does not know why.
#StateCaptureInquiry “I need to understand why it is an issue here,” says Manyi on private emails he sent after leaving the public sector, seemingly in reference to his mention in the #GuptaLeaks. Manyi says he sent lots of people CVs as a private person, why it is of interest.
#StateCaptureInquiry Manyi has told Zondo that he wrote to the inquiry to raise a concern about Maleka’s past work in litigation in opposition to the #Guptas and he feared that this would have bearing on Maleka’s approach to him. Manyi says that fear was confirmed yesterday.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo thanks Manyi for raising his concerns and details the approach of the legal team, saying they do not have clients and one must assess if the questions are in service of getting to the bottom of the truth or crossing a line, it can be difficult.
#StateCaptureInquiry I will apply my mind to whatever concerns you raise, says Zondo after encouraging Manyi to raise concerns in real time on a case by case basis. I am committed to doing what I can to make sure they experience fairness, adds Zondo talking of witnesses.
“I got a very different treatment than others here,” says Manyi. He has, it is true, been allowed to speak undirected and lead his own evidence without questions at times. He has arguably given very different testimony (in format, let us leave substance to one side) than others.
#StateCaptureInquiry “I can assure Mr Manyi, Chair, that I did not appoint myself to this Commission,” says Maleka. “As and when we raise questions before you [...] we are subject to tight controls from you, Chair.”
#StateCaptureInquiry “I can place on record that I have acted for a number of people who have been accused of doing impropriety before you,” says Maleka. Maleka adds that Manyi had approached Maleka to represent HIM but Maleka was not available at the time.
#StateCaptureInquiry “I have been put up on this stand as as if I was a criminal who was lying,” says Manyi adding that others “poetry” has not been interrogated. He requests that Maleka recuse himself. Zondo says that it quite an involved process.
#StateCaptureInquiry “If Mr Manyi feels uncomfortable then we should follow due process,” says Maleka. Zondo says, in that case, “I think we would have to stop with your evidence at this stage.” Zondo says he knows Manyi is not legally assisted, he many need that or explanation.
#StateCaptureInquiry Manyi says this process should be open to the man on the street, not only those who have money for legal representation. Zondo says that if he has a pro bono lawyer who is satisfactory, will he entertain it. Manyi agreed and Zondo makes a public call for one.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says this will require an affidavit with facts relevant to Manyi’s call for Maleka to recuse himself. “The legal team may want to prepare something in writing in response,” says Zondo. Manyi will be entitled to this, it may be discussed at a later date.
#StateCaptureInquiry Manyi asks Zondo if Maleka is the only person who can ask the written questions Manyi received, is that what Zondo is saying. Zondo says not, then by mistake calls Mr Maleka “Mr Malema” which prompts some brief perhaps needed light relief to proceedings.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says we can take one approach: there must be an application first and it must be dealt with properly and decided, which would mean adjourning Manyi’s evidence, which might take us to when we resume next year.
#StateCaptureInquiry The other option to explore is to say, well, if he has an objection to you but somebody else within the team can do the job, given some time, it may be for practical purposes, able to consider, without deciding on merits of Manyi’s call for Maleka’s recusal
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says perhaps they should step down so the head of the inquiry’s legal team can provide input and discussions may take place, meanwhile they can move on to the next witness, which is not what Zondo says he would prefer.
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka would like to put two things on record: (i.) You are confronted off the mark with an application for my recusal, based on allegations about my professional integrity, and (ii.) this could set a precedent that witnesses get to dictate who questions them
#StateCaptureInquiry Manyi says Maleka crosses a line yesterday and interrogated him. He then starts addressing in some detail his testimony and evidence on GCIS financing for ‘The New Age’ despite raising a complaint about Maleka’s leading of evidence. Zondo eventually steps in.
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka says the next witness is ready. @zizikodwa of the @MYANC said earlier Gwede Mantashe is ready to speak. We adjourn until 10:15 so Maleka can consult with his leader, Advocate Paul Pretorius.
[JUST IN] #StateCaptureInquiry Proceedings resume and Advocate Paul Pretorius says Manyi has decided to drop his call for Maleka to recuse himself. "I think the point has been made," says Manyi, adding he does not want to obstruct the work of the inquiry.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo now reads a statement on #EFF protests outside the inquiry venue, and certain statements on Minister Pravin Gordhan and Pretorius. "The statements included insults [...] it has been necessary to secure the transcript" of those statements, says Zondo.
#StateCaptureInquiry This Commission wants to make it clear that it is unacceptable to subject any witness to harassment or intimidation, says Zondo after noting that the inquiry does not want to get involved in political disputes between Gordhan and EFF leader Julius Malema.
#StateCaptureInquiry I have over a number of months called on past and present members of the National Executive, Directors General and other government officials with knowledge to come forward to assist the Commission with their work, says Zondo.
MT: #StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says any harassment of the personnel of this Commission is also unacceptable. He repeats that anybody who has a complaint against any personnel of the Commission is free to lodge their complaints with the Commission.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says it does not help the Commission or the country to withhold evidence of corruption or acts of #StateCapture which he or she believes is credible. If they do not hand it over, people will think it is not credible evidence able to withstand scrutiny.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says this inquiry will not consider evidence discussed outside the Commission if it is not tabled inside the Commission. It is "fully conscious" of the enormous task, and the time limit. "It will not allow itself to be obstructed."
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says, "For now the Commission will not be laying any complaints with the police." He says when the media published witness statements without his written permission, which is a criminal offence, the Commission did not lay any complaints.
#StateCaptureInquiry "But we will monitor the situation and the conduct of various people," says Zondo, adding adds those with complaints against members of the legal and investigative teams are free to lodge them, if there's any misconduct, the Commission will deal with it.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo affirms his confidence in the legal and investigation teams, and the head of the legal team, Pretorius.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo: One of the statements that was made last week in the protest that took place outside this building was a statement to the effect that this Commission decided to use this building without looking at the possibility of using government buildings.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says that he, following appointment, called for a government building as a venue. Indeed I was told that various government buildings were inspected but were not, for some reason or another, not suitable or not available. he says.
#StateCaptureInquiry "None of the places that were looked at was available or was suitable for the needs of the Commission," says Zondo. He concludes his statement, and Maleka resumes his questioning of Manyi. Maleka says yesterday concluded with government advertising spend.
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka says he would like to start elsewhere this morning (dealing with Manyi's transfer from the Department of Labour to GCIS). Zondo stops Maleka and says that Manhi earlier indicated he wanted to address an aspect of his testimony, which Manyi can do now.
#StateCaptureInquiry Manyi speaks about ad hoc agreements or "bilateral" advertising deals between government departments and publications like 'City Press' which fall outside the figures indicated in the papers tabled.
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka raises Manyi's submission on transfer which, Manyi argued, resolved questions regarding his move to GCIS. "I am afraid it did not resolve some questions we would like to ask you, if you don't mind," says Maleka. He raises a question on lawful transfer.
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka refers to legislation on transfer. Maleka says as he understands it, Manyi argued his transfer from the Department of Labour to GCIS was lawful, and Maleka then refers to the Public Service Act.
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka: The question simply was: this is not the first time you are seeing this provision you must have in your lifetime.
Manyi: This is not something you preoccupy yourself with.
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka says, "A lawful transfer under Section 12 (iii) would have required the consent of the affected Director General. Correct?" Manyi replies curtly, "Proceed." Zondo begins temperately, "Well, Mr Maleka..."
#StateCaptureInquiry "When I am asked a question as if there is only one answer, I just feel it is sort of inappropriate," says Manyi. He notes the "either" and "or" wording in a provision on transfer in Section 12 the Public Service Act.
#StateCaptureInquiry Manyi says "I can't speak for other people, I can only speak for myself" and that Section 12 (i) of the Public Service Act applies to him, not (ii) or (iii).
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka says, "Now, Mr Manyi, you would recall that your transfer took place in the context of the transfer of Mr Maseko out of the GCIS."
#StateCaptureInquiry "You cannot have the two heads of the GCIS at the same time. Correct," says Maleka. "No, in fact that is an obvious question, you can't [...] I am not understanding this question," says Manyi.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo asks Manyi if he knew of Themba Maseko's move. Manyi says "there is no way" to which Zondo replies Minister Collins Chabane could have mentioned it, Manyi says Chabane "was a very honourable person" and "I don't think he had an obligation to tell me"
#StateCaptureInquiry "You say you consented to the transfer," says Maleka. "Yes," replies Manyi. Maleka then refers to an exhibit, a letter. "I have not come across any indication in that letter that you consent to that transfer," says Maleka asking for explanation, clarity.
#StateCaptureInquiry Manyi says there is something called a Presidential minute containing what Maleka seeks. "It will have that detail," says Manyi. Zondo says, "How did you convey your consent for the transfer. Was it in writing?" Manyi says he agreed on the spot with Chabane.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says to Maleka, "Well, I'm not sure, Mr Manyi might be able to assist you with that. He has said that as far as his transfer is concerned [...] he gave his consent verbally." Maleka asks if Chabane dealt with a public interest requirement for transfer.
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka closes a file. He introduces Manyi's remarks on writing to Pumla Williams regarding her testimony, including Manyi's remarks on a message to her, and refers Manyi to a different file.
#StateCaptureInquiry Manyi takes issue with Maleka's characterising. He says, I was setting the record straight. When you say criticise, I was not criticising here. I was dealing with the facts.
#StateCaptureInquiry "No, it is not a fair assumption. I did not watch the second day," says Manyi of the testimony of Williams. Maleka refers to a transcript of that testimony.
#StateCapatureInquiry "Ms Williams clarifies her evidence as follows, 'Chairperson, I did go and verify the fact. it is is true that the address by Mr Manyi [...] was on the 2nd of February," reads Maleka. Manyi insists it was 3 February 2011.
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka asks Manyi if he still doubts the testimony of Williams. Manyi says yes, as it was first january she said he was at GCIs, then February and the correction is still correct, he arrived on the THIRD of February in 2011.
#StateCaptureInquiry Manyi understands this is not court but he's now "getting all sorts of surprises" from Maleka. Zondo says Maleka read a small portion of testimony and Zondo "does not think it is that contentious" and he is not aware of anything that should make it big issue.
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka says he would like to move on. Manyi confirms he sent a message to Williams during the tea break on her first day of testimony.
#StateCaptureInquiry "When you sent that text to Ms Williams you were already aware and had received notice [...] that Ms Williams would be testifying. Correct?" says Maleka. "Yes, that is correct," replies Manyi. Maleka notes Manyi was informed of his right to present a version.
#StateCaptureInquiry Manyi on the message he sent to Williams says, "I didn't see this, actually, as a substantive issue, as it were." He later adds, "It is something that I thought needed to be corrected in real time." Manyi says "so I was not trying to distort" anything.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says, "Well, Mr Maleka [...] my prima facie view is that the explanation Mr Manyi has given is acceptable." Zondo says that with the time available perhaps they should seek Manyi's input on other matters. Maleka soon moves on.
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka speaks of Manyi depicting GCIS being a "corrupt empire" akin to VBS which Manyi was going to dismantle. "When you came in as the GCIS you reappointed Ms Williams as and to continue as the head of the bid adjudication committee," says Maleka. "Correct."
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka asks Manyi when Manyi concluded "that you had inherited a mini VBS bank" and Manyi says he did not presume anyone guilty but had to do some investigations to make sure "that we root out the malfeasance that was patently clear"
#stateCaptureInquiry Maleka repeats his question and Manyi says it was 2011, after some discussion, Manyi says it must have been toward the end of that year. Maleka continues to ask Manyi about the changes to the GCIS bid adjudication committee.
#StateCaptureInquiry "I think, Chair, this is a simplistic approach he is taking," says Manyi after Maleka asks him about a @TreasuryRSA directive on the appointments to the bid adjudication committee at GCIS.
@TreasuryRSA #StateCaptureInquiry "The changes that I brought in restructuring this committee they did not flout a regulation, they did not flout a law. [...] guideline is not a regulation [...] if you have something better you can improve on a guideline," says Manyi.
@TreasuryRSA #StateCapatureInquiry Maleka responds, in effect, we will deal with that later. He moves on to an inquiry investigation into two CVs Manyi received via email after he left government service.
@TreasuryRSA #StateCaptureInquiry "I needed to know what brings private conversations of people that are both not in government," says Manyi. Zondo agrees Manyi is raising a question of relevance, and says Maleka will explain. Maleka says the relevance of the private emails is on two levels.
@TreasuryRSA #StateCaptureInquiry Maleka says one of the emails is from Manyi to Ashu Chawla (in 2014) and includes the CV of a black woman, and the copy reads "as discussed with Tony" which Manyi confirms is Rajesh "Tony" Gupta. Manyi does not see the issue, or relevance.
@TreasuryRSA #StateCaptureInquiry Maleka says Manyi is not an employment agent, asks Manyi to confirm. Manyi replies that does not preclude him from sending emails and then adds, "I think that is totally a bankrupt question." Maleka refers to another email from 2014 to Nazeem Howa of Oakbay.
@TreasuryRSA #StateCaptureInquiry Manyi says that the second email's attachment is a business proposal and not a CV. Maleka apologises for the error and thanks Manyi for the correction. Manyi raises a question of relevance again. Maleka moves on to the liquidation of a media company.
@TreasuryRSA #StateCaptureInquiry Maleka asks Manyi about an application for the liquidation of 'The New Age' and the current status of it. Manyi says "it is being finalised tomorrow" and there is an auction tomorrow.
@TreasuryRSA #StateCaptureIqniury Manyi says "there is nothing sinister" in purchasing a loss- making business and people do so in order to turn them around. Maleka says "the record will show" illegality, that without government business this entity would not survive, absent of those elements
@TreasuryRSA #StateCaptureInquiry Maleka asks "who in government would have been so happy" with 'The New Age' arriving in the media space, especially in light of discussion of the bid adjudication committee. Manyi details his efforts to table, promote 'The New Age' in an "above board" manner.
@TreasuryRSA #StateCaptureInquiry Manyi says nothing untoward happened between 'The New Age' and GCIS when he was around and he takes issue with the idea, suggested he says by Williams, of Telmar software "being the be all and end all" of decisions on government advertising.
@TreasuryRSA #StateCaptureInquiry Manyi says that Telmar "does not take away other platforms, other approaches or platforms or opportunities to ensure you get the exposure that you are looking for" and you can also do it differently. Maleka says that is not correct.
@TreasuryRSA #StateCaptureInquiry Maleka refers to testimony of Williams. Zondo says it is important that Maleka convey his reasons for saying Manyi is incorrect to Manyi so that Manyi has opportunity to reply. Zondo repeats this to Manyi. Maleka reads from transcripts of Williams's testimony
#StateCaptureInquiry Maleka compares to files and there is a brief pause. Manyi then pipes up that it is not that straightforward. After some input from Zondo, Maleka begins reading from the transcript of testimony from Williams on cost effective advertising and conditions for it
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo asks Maleka if he is not looking for something that Maleka would put to Manyi to indicate the use of Telmar to determine where GCIS should place advertising was obligatory, whereas Manyi suggests it was optional.
#StateCaptureInquiry Manyi says that Telmar does not list community newspapers, for example, and circulation alone - which Telmar reflects - is inadequate. Maleka makes a note on obtaining further evidence from Manyi later on. Zondo then addresses a point Manyi raised earlier.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo thanks Manyi for his contribution, says Manyi may or may not be called back, and excuses him. "Thank you, Chair," says Manyi. He begins packing up his papers. We hear that next witness, Mantashe, may not take too long based on length of his statement.
#StateCaptureInquiry Zondo says let's take a 10 minute break, resume for 20 minutes and then take lunch at 13:00. He adjourns for ten minutes. Up next, Mineral Resources Minister and @MYANC National Chairperson Gwede Mantashe.
@MYANC #StateCaptureInquiry Mantashe, who speaks in his capacity as National Chairperson of the ANC, has been sworn in. He reads from a written statement, speaking of the challenges the governing party faced building a state out of the ashes of a racially divided country.
@MYANC #StateCaptureInquiry We must guard our victories, says Mantashe. He adds, "We should not shy away from our collective responsibility to protect our freedoms." He asks what values are we shaping for future generations, what are the lapses suffered.
@MYANC #StateCaptureInquiry He says the party will make submissions in four parts, starting today with why the ANC met the banks. At a future date he will respond to Barbara Hogan's allegations he improperly sought to use his political influence.
@MYANC #StateCaptureInquiry Mantashe says Jessie Duarte is willing to come before the inquiry at any stage to respond to allegations that she was involved in state capture.
@MYANC #StateCaptureInquiry Mantashe will address, at a later stage, an allegation by Hogan that he was exerting his political influence insisting on the appointment of Siyabonga Gama at Transnet, among other comments.
@MYANC #StateCaptureInquiry Mantashe says that President Cyril Ramaphosa will address why the ANC did not intervene and says the party "calls on all its members who may have information" relevant to the inquiry's Terms of Reference.
@MYANC #StateCaptureInquiry Mantashe now reads from the inquiry's terms. He has indicated that today's testimony will concern the party's engagements with banks over the closure of #Gupta-linked accounts.
@MYANC #StateCaptureInquiry "The ANC calls on all members to step up and answer to the allegations before the Commission," says Mantashe reading from his opening statement. We adjourn for lunch. Proceedings resume at 14:00.
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