Surely the wickedness is in fact dependent on the effectiveness.
But if you think the wall is harming migrants somehow, then you presumably believe that walls work, right?
We already have physical barriers across a huge share of the border!
The symbol is already there!
This is just a debate about some extensions of it!
The question, the whole question, is, "Should we expand the border wall which already exists?"
If you want to shut the government down over $6 billion in ineffective spending, you're just an anarchist who never wants any government.
Waterboarding, which is torture, enacts its evil (pain) long before the desired outcome (information), and that outcome often does not manifest.
But precisely the fact that it's not effective convinces me that, in real terms, it's not a big deal.
Symbolic politics are awful and you should not participate in them!
But the Republicans who want the wall *believe it will work*; they're at least consistent.
is a totally fair argument!
But I just don't believe that's really the source of outrage. Sorry, you're lying if you tell me this is all about migrations of small desert mammals or something.
Okay first of all your fellow Americans aren't terrorists: something that must be said frequently to wacko America-haters on both sides of the aisle.
In which case your argument is, "We caused the shutdown as a tactical decision to influence future political process choices."
I don't regard shutdowns as existential crises. America will be fine. I am willing to accept the argument that causing a shutdown is an acceptable political strategy for short-run tactical goals.
"It's not about the wall, it's about demonstrating to the president that we are exactly as belligerent, determined, destructive, and insane as Republicans were when they were in opposition."
"It's the intent that matters!"
Oh give me a freaking break, you naive, petulant child. Grow the heck up. Intentions do not matter in politics. You think we got civil rights because everybody loved rainbows?
I don't support the wall.
I'm not even saying Democrats should cave.
I'm saying that the only rational justifications for holding out are:
1. Walls work
2. Tit-for-tat on Republican obstructionism
"But Lyman, this makes us look so evil to the world around us! We look like such jerks!"
I'm sorry but if you think the big complaint the world has against America is a *fence* then *facepalm*.