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THREAD: Bill C-71 Canadian Senate Standing Committee on Security and National Defence (SECD) to hear from witnesses today.

Agenda + Link to Live Webcast:
sencanada.ca/en/committees/…

CPAC TV Livestream:
cpac.ca/en/direct/sen2…

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
1st speaker from prohibitionist group says violent people use tools to hurt people. Doesn't address any clause in Bill C-71.

2nd speaker from prohibitionist group says violent people use tools to hurt people. Doesn't address any clause in Bill C-71.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
3rd speaker Saunders is also spokeswoman for Doctors for Protection From Facts. (She is 3rd speaker from doctors' group to be invited by Senate on Bill C-71.)

Saunders says some people hurt themselves and others.

Doesn't address any clause in Bill C-71.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
4th witness Vasquez doesn't address Bill C-71.

5th witness Benabdallah doesn't address Bill C-71.


1st panel recap: It sucks that violent people shoot people.

All panelists avoid discussing Bill C-71.

Reminder: Bill C-71 isn't about crime or violence.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Saunders repeats Canadian Paediatric Society goal to imprison Olympic pistol competitors and other sport shooters who don't surrender their handguns. (aka handgun ban).

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Senator Jaffer says violence has social causes, asks Benabdallah if C-71 would have stopped anything.

Benabdallah says yes, but doesn't say how Bill C-71 would help.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
The meme that U.S. registers all gun sales ...?

This is a nifty in-depth report from 2016:

gq.com/story/inside-f…
Senator Pratte @apratte asks Saunders about what some people view as "overly broad" definitions in her study that counted "youth" up to 24, and BB/airsoft as "firearms."

Saunders replies without answering question.

Reminder: C-71 doesn't cover airsoft.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Great to see several people live-tweeting Senate Bill C-71 hearing. Draws attention, builds knowledge, shows how many people care.

@ThatLibertyGuy
@TWilsonOttawa
@HarryLime3

Who else?

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
#AdvanceTheLine
Friendly Public Service Announcement:

Laws don't protect people. People do. Especially people with powerful weapons.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Prohibitionist witness 2 says people who break the law break the law.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Very frustrating that debate focuses only on costs of gun ownership, not benefits.

Death and injury by bullet is ~1,000 Canadians per year. That really sucks. Mainly deliberate, some accidents.

What about the tens of thousands of people whose lives are saved by guns?

#StopC71
If the goal is to save lives and prevent injury:
- Ban cigarettes
- Ban alcohol
- Ban sugar/junk food
- Ban hockey
- ...
Panel 2 opens with Dave Partanen of Silverdale Gun Club @GunSilverdale (near Niagara Falls in Ontario).

- "We are not the enemy."
- 25,000 users/year incl. police, security, etc.
- has donated $225,000 in past decade to charity

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Partanen of Silverdale Gun Club:

"We are not the problem, but we want to be part of the solution."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Marty Kerluck @theREALmartyk (Gun licence instructor)

- Member of Toronto Revolver Club. Open since 1905. Never had accident.
- Member of several clubs.
- Gives overview of how to get a licence, process to request RCMP approval, how to join shooting club.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Kerluck:
"This is simply a feel-good bill, designed to appease voters."

Criminals committing crimes don't have a firearm licence, he says.

Legal gun owners are the most-monitored and vetted people in society, he says.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Kerluck:

Section (12) of Bill C-71:
The 'open hole' exists to confiscate people's property for no reason.

"We don't shoot weapons. We don't have weapons. We have firearms. We don't shoot people. We shoot targets."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Partanen / Silverdale:

"Why not just make murder illegal?"

"The people who are out there shooting others don't care what the laws are right now."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Partanen of @GunSilverdale :

Happy to discuss and improve safety, but ... "C-71 is going in a completely wrong direction on that."

#WrongDirection
#WrongApproach
#WrongTarget

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Senator McPhedran cites stats on homicide that are ... much higher than anything I've ever heard. Also compares PAL holders out of total population vs. Adult population.

Says Hitler didn't disarm citizens.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Partanen of @GunSilverdale

Bill C-71
- gives RCMP power to prohibit any firearm
- leads to registration of every single firearm

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Marty Kerluck @theREALmartyk

Re Danforth media event last Friday:

Says he can't help but wonder:
"Is somebody behind the scenes paying for this?"

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
No senator has asked any prohibitionist about their tweets urging the government to imprison lawful, honest citizens and seize their property, have they?

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Kerluck @theREALmartyk

Discusses how police will confiscate valuable property after his death.

Referring to prohibition/confiscation of his SAN Swiss Arms rifle.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Senator Pratte says Bill C-71 doesn't ban firearms.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71

How about this:
thegunblog.ca/2018/05/16/rcm…
Senator @DonPlett : Asks about transfers/registrations, creates "connections registry."

Partanen: "Yes, that's exactly what it is."

Kerluck: "It is data collection, and it is a registry."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Partanen of Silverdale @GunSilverdale
- 3,000 members
- ~25,000 people walk through the door per year, roughly 500 per week.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Senator @SenatBoisvenu says he is concerned by how Bill C-71 will increase bureaucracy on already overloaded services (police, mental health, ...)

"Are we attacking the real problem?"

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Senator @SenatBoisvenu asks if Bill C-71 will create a "false sense of security"?

Partanen: "Exactly" ... It's a feel-good bill." (quotes Kerluck)

Says most public have no idea about the laws and regulations that are involved and in place in Canada.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Kerluck @theREALmartyk
- is an RCMP approved firearm verifier
- says seized guns shown by police are "Prohibited," modern, semi-autos. Must be smuggled. Not available in Canada.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
.@SenatorVictorOh asks if Bill C-71 penalties are enough for violent offenders.

Partanen: More emphasis should be on consequences of those actions, as well as prevention.

It's his birthday today!

#HappyBirthday

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Partanen of @GunSilverdale answering question from @SenatorVictorOh on violent offenders:

"C-71 needs to take a step back and look after what the real issues are and go after that, rather than going after the 'low-hanging fruit.'"

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Kerluck @theREALmartyk answering @SenatorVictorOh on ATTs to border, gunsmith:

"I fail to understand how that will affect gang violence in my city, in Toronto."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Senator David Richards: Bill C-71 seems to profile a group of people who do obey the law to stop a group of people who won't obey the law.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Kerluck @theREALmartyk
- teaches course designed by RCMP
- addresses causes of violence with firearms
- addresses moral issues, how to handle people encountering personal issue
- lock up guns, keep key hidden.

"It's something very important to me when I deliver the course."
Partanen of @GunSilverdale on whether to amend or scrap Bill C-71:

This is not an issue of firearms. "This is a matter of social and moral decay. We need to look at those factors."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Thank you to Partanen @GunSilverdale and Kerluck @theREALmartyk .

Tough questions and a few curve balls + booby traps.

You guys rocked it!

Happy 50th Birthday Dave Partanen!
🎂🥳🎉

#AdvanceTheLine
#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Panel 3 now.

Anybody who says background checks are useful for public safety, that is a CLAIM. It is NOT a fact.

- You need to SHOW it with evidence. It's not enough to repeat it.
- So many variables in how/when checks are done, what is checked, who checks, who assesses ...
If assessing suicide:
- Suicide dropped in many countries that never passed Canada's Firearms Act.
- Where's evidence to say drop is related to legislation?
- SSRI drugs have been a huge consideration.
- Suicide by bullet: 16%. Hanging: ~50%. Ban rope?

#StopC71
Kane says Bill C-71 will help prevent domestic violence.

- Doesn't say how.
- Doesn't know that if police want to take away all guns, it's a piece of cake: Revoke licence.
- Doesn't know that most wife beaters don't have a PAL.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Poster from Nazi Occupied France.

"Possession of all firearms is prohibited ..." ... unless we authorize you. (We authorize only Nazis & Friends.)
If what some of what we are hearing from Bill C-71 witnesses is true, and some of it is, it undermines the entire system of licensing and registration.

(RCMP is probably doing its best.)

The solution isn't the law. The problem is the law.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Logic Cuts All Ways

All PAL holders are human.
All humans are potential killers.
Therefore, all PAL holders are potential killers.

All doctors are human.
All humans are potential killers.
Therefore, all doctors are potential killers.

All Senators are human ...
Senator @DonPlett asks for statistics on instead of personal opinion.

Seems some panelists confuse temporality and causality.

#StopC71
#BillC71
Senator @DonPlett says rate of suicide by bullet is DROPPING while firearm ownership has risen. [licensing and ownership now at a record high].

Asks if rate has changed since "Long-Gun Registry" was cancelled.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Break until 14:45 Ottawa time.
Firearm licensing is self-selecting of "Good Guys."

If you plan to do bad things, you aren't going to hire the federal police to investigate you and track you (aka get a PAL).
Caillin Langmann @Dr_Langmann says many researchers have found NO relation between background checks and death by bullet.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Langmann: Much research shows no correlation between rates of firearm ownership and homicide/suicide by bullet.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
The problem is criminal violence, not guns.

"Bill C-71 misses the target completely."

"Bill C-71 will not increase public safety."

"It is an endangerment to public safety because it misdirects scarce public resources."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
"Moose kill more people in Canada than registered firearm-licence holders."

"The worst mass murder in Canada did not involve a firearm: gasoline."

"Hanging is the preferred method of committing suicide. ... Hanging is your problem."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Mauser (also Moose comment): @GaryMauser

Bill C-71 neglects the overwhelmingly positive contribution that PAL holders make to Canada.

"It is irrational to merely look at the downside of anything."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Above is Gary Mauser @GaryMauser
Mauser

"Not only have handguns remained the murder weapon of choice, but gang killings have increased. Gun bans by the evidence do not seem very useful."

"Bill C-71 falsely assumes criminals get their guns from lawful, domestic sources."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Mauser on ATTs:

"Requiring additional ATTs diverts scarce political [police?] resources."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Mauser @ @GaryMauser

"Bill C-71 is fundamentally misguided."

PAL holders are a public safety resources, not a threat.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Mauser @GaryMauser

"Hunters are the lion's share of wildlife conservation in Canada. ... Hunting is a serious and effective control of wildlife."

"There is a large industry that provides food for cities. ... Predators prey on this." Hunters help control.

#StopC71
Mauser @GaryMauser answering @SenatDagenais :

Advocates love to collect claims and not do proper research methods.

Senators must ask: How do speakers know what they claim to know?

Most of the medical research that comes before you is not based on science.

#StopC71
.@SenatDagenais "Personally I don't see anything in C-71 that will change the way criminals use firearms."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Senator @SenMarilou asks about NRA funding:

Mauser: "Almost all of my research is funded by the Canadian government."

Langmann: "None of my research has been funded by any firearm organization. I am not a member of any firearm organization."

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Mauser:

Gun Classification
"There are many technical experts in Canada with equal expertise to the RCMP."

Bill C-71
"It seems inordinately irresponsible to make the police the creators and the enforcers of this legislation."

#ProtectDemocracy
#StopC71
Langmann: No change in violence or homicide with or without ATTs.

#StopTheWaste
#StopC71
#KillBillC71
Langmann: If comparing PAL holders to non-PAL holders, must look at:
- Males
- Over 18

"When you do that comparison ... You find that Canadian firearm-licence holders are less likely to commit firearm homicide than Canadians who are unlicensed."

#StopC71
Irwin Cohen @IrwinMCohen

"Much more research is required ... before we can state this works and this doesn't work."

Rand Corporation research analyzed many studies, showed conclusions are inconclusive.

[Evidence-based policy requires evidence.]

#StopC71
Langmann on uselessness of gun classification:

Many firearms reclassified in 1990s. No signif change.
- U.S "Assault Weapons Ban" ... no change in homicide by bullet.

"In Canada, there is no proven benefit."

Better to direct funding to youth at risk.

#StopC71
Senators are asking GREAT questions. Hard questions.

What if they asked similar questions to all panelists, asked all panelists to back up their assertions with evidence?

#TrySomethingNew
#StopC71
Langmann (Paraphrase)

"As a physician, I am afraid that one day I might be forced to give our patient records." I don't want a patient to be afraid of talking to me because of information I may give away.

[Gives heartbreaking testimony of how system fails people who need help.]
Langmann: The program is already stressed. ... A number of people slip through. ... Increasing backlog, costs.

We are going to get a lot of false positives.

#StopC71
Langmann: "I have no really good way of judging whether someone is competent" (with firearms). No algorithms. No risk factors.

Most physicians won't sign off if asked to approve someone as a gun owner. Not worth the risk to them given all the unknowns.

#StopC71
Alison de Groot of @InfoCSAAA : Bill C-71 is "ill conceived and ideologically driven."

#StopC71
de Groot

[Paraphrase]

The govt is imposing new requirements/costs on companies, offsetting cost of new registry onto private sector.

#StopC71
Wes Winkel of @InfoCSAAA and @ellwoodepps

Says CSAAA wasn't consulted in drafting Bill C71.

[Many laws have failed to improve safety or reduce crime.]

"Without some changes, Bill C-71 will also fall into this category."

Says eager to work with govt on legislation.

#StopC71
Winkel on ATTs:

There should be no barrier to a licensed firearm owner to properly maintain a firearm in the interests of public safety.

#StopC71
Adam Caruana, General Manager of Firearms Outlet Canada @firearmsoutlet1

Bill C-71
- will prevent lawful people from practising lawful activities/sports, and doing lawful business
- overburden an already overburdened govt systems
- registry "additional security risk"

#StopC71
Matthew Hipwell of @wolv_supplies

Wolverine
- Started with 2 employees. Now 24+ people

Hipwell
- Former RCMP officer (17 years). Left in summer 2017.
- Former use of force instructor
- former RCMP Emergency Response Team assaulter and sniper

#StopC71
Hipwell

"The classification of firearms is open to opinion. There is no appeal process in place." ... It changes over time.

#StopC71
de Groot:

"Bill C-71 turns regulation of our product over to the RCMP."

Many industries have a regulator.

"In this case, the RCMP has carte blanche over our products with no formula for our industry to participate in that."

#CreateAccountability
#StopC71
Bill C-71 debates have done at least one good thing: They are educating tens of thousands of people of just how rotten/broken the regulations are, and how perverse their consequences are.

Why have we put up with this for so long?

#PublicPolicyFailure
#PublicSafetyScam
#StopC71
Violation of privacy and a huge security risk:
- When name, PAL, and guns are in a book on the gun store counter.
- when clubs/ranges have paper linking name, PAL, address.

Bill C-71 makes this much worse. It's a great way to REDUCE public safety.

#StopC71
This is how the prohibitionists operate:

1. Impose a small injustice. (Just the tip.)
2. Well, you're already doing 1. What's wrong with just a little more?
3. How about a little more?
4. Oh, was that too much? Too bad.

#NoCompromise
#StopC71
de Groot of CSAAA says sometimes the first a company finds out about regulatory/enforcement change is AFTER a shipment has arrived in the country.

Said earlier that companies face "exorbitant" costs when CBSA stores products.

#StopC71
Why have we accepted that it is legitimate for the federal police to regulate this industry?

RCMP Covers
- terrorists
- gangs
- mafia
- slave traders
- national security
- Olympic athletes
- duck hunters

#StopC71
Hipwell

C-71 is focusing on the law-abiding firearms owners. There is nothing that I see that is focusing on the criminal element.

#StopC71
Pratte @apratte says Bill C-71 doesn't allow the registration of "Non-restricted" firearms.

Tell that to the store next time you buy a shotgun and they want to register your details.

Tell it to the RCMP when they inspect you and you don't have the transfer record.

#StopC71
Bill C-71 says this must be recorded:

- reference number issued by the Registrar,
- day on which the reference number was issued,
- transferee’s licence number, and
- firearm’s make, model and type and, if any, its serial number; and

#StopC71

parl.ca/DocumentViewer…
Notice the difference in how gunnies vs. non-gunnies talk?

- Tone
- Style
- Precision
- Specifics
- No emotional manipulation
- Not telling other people what they need
- Not telling other people how to live

#ThisIsMyTeam
Panel:

Bill C-71 doesn't compensate stores if guns they have in inventory are "Prohibited."

Devaluation. Can be tens of thousands of dollars ... for a single model ... at a single store.

#StopC71
Senator @DonPlett: How often does someone try to buy a PAL without a PAL?

Hipwell: "In our business you will not walk out of the store with a firearm without a valid PAL."

Caruana: Possession of a firearm licence is itself proof of its validity.

#StopC71
Caruana

I have never seen anyone purchase a firearm or ammunition without a valid licence.

#StopC71
de Groot on Bill C-71

Agreement in industry that ... "the bill does nothing to address its stated purpose."

#StopC71
Reminder: CSSA @CSSA_CILA calls Bill C-71

"The Firearm Owners Harassment Act."

myemail.constantcontact.com/Bill-C-71-----…

#StopHarassing
#StopC71
de Groot

In Canada: "Anybody producing firearms without a licence is doing so illegally."

#StopC71
Senator Richards: "I have six rifles and none of them are Canadian."

❤️ a fellow Gunnie ... but ... #RookieNumbers !
Winkel

RCMP uses undefined word "variant" as a way to prohibit firearms.

#StopC71
#KillBillC71
.@TonyDean_TO Split long guns vs. handguns?

Caruana: We probably have one of the widest selection of handguns and modern sporting rifles, which are AR-15s.
- "We sell quite a large volume. Probably close to 100 a week. Our business is based predominantly on Restricted firearms."
Winkel / Hipwell on Split

WInkel: 55% long guns, 45% handguns. That split gets closer and closer together every year (At Ellwood Epps)

Hipwell: We have seen a similar trend, increase in "Restricted" firearm sales.
- roughly 50-50, could be 60-40

#StopC71
de Groot

Most [54%?] CSAAA members say sport shooting is driving growth in sales vs. hunting.

"Sport shooting is definitely driving our industry."

#StopC71
Senate and others need to know: Zero overlap between lawful, legitimate gun owners and violent offenders.

- We don't know each other.
- We don't know about each other.
- We have zero contact.

Each PAL holder lives knowing they are one phone call away from prison.

#StopC71
Winkel on background checks

"Without the background check being done in a timely manner, we have no market to sell to."

#StopC71
End of panel with de Groot (CSAAA), Winkel (Ellwood Epps, CSAAA), Caruana (Firearm Outlet Canada), Hipwell (Wolverine Supplies).

#ThankYou for rocking it!

Happy to be a customer of all your stores. Can hardly wait to be a bigger customer.
Remember: Jooyoung Lee was quoted as saying AK-47 ammo (7.62 x 39) probably comes into Canada via smuggling.

It is available in stores.

#FactsMatter
#StopC71

globalnews.ca/news/4849745/w…
Senators should ask all panelists about their experience with firearms, firearm policy and firearm regulation in Canada.

#StopC71
Senate should ask witnesses on this panel if they have ever seen an RCMP form, e.g. for licence application, licence renewal, business, ... anything.

#StopC71
Reminder: Based on statistics and other things being equal, the biggest threats to public safety in the Senate Bill C-71 committee meeting are the people who don't have a gun licence and don't own guns.

#MirrorMirror
#StopC71
Half the panels could be summarized like this:

"I'd love to see violence stop."

Senator David Richards nails it. Again.

#StopC71
Some of the witnesses on this panel seem to be unfamiliar with RCMP Form 5592 and how the licensing system works. (But they are doing a great job, under the circumstances.)

"Application for a Possession and Acquisition Licence"

#StopC71

rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/form-…
Bill C-71 Senate Committee ends.

Much ❤️ for:
- Senators asking smart questions on new, complex, technical topics.
- Panelists.
- Twitter Gunnies for your support.

Video replay should be available later today.

sencanada.ca/en/committees/…

Transcript will take a few days.

#StopC71
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