Thread by @theBuoyantMan

This thread is about trading workshops that many twitter traders conduct and earn money off. You better take this thread seriously and save yourself money that you'd rather throw away on a one/two day workshop to build a skill that takes atleast a year of single minded focus.

Workshops are great. Not for those attending them though. Only for those conducting it. This is the case with 99% of them out there. Only one or two workshop trainers are actually pretty good at getting you a head-start in the world of trading. The rest are pure dog-shit.

I have been following quite a lot of trading related twitter accounts for the last couple of years, and have seen the kind of stuff they post. One guy bought cars, homes, with the kind of money he made through conducting workshops. It works out very well for them.

The problem with this though is that both sides are greedy. The trainer is greedy for risk-free money. The trainees are greedy to make a quick buck. The trainees mostly are under the assumption that a 1 or 2 day workshop will suddenly make them super-profitable.

The kind of laziness I see in people who go to workshops is UNBELIEVABLE. I definitely know many legit traders on twitter (and also those who are fake) get regular messages from guys asking for their trading system or their method or even irrelevant questions like size, pnl, roi.

A lot of these twitter based workshop trainers who call themselves traders post MTM screenshots just to lure the gullible ones. And I can't even fathom how some dumbfucks (can't help but call them that) fall for these screenshots from zerodha or NEST or whatever.

Here - I made 32 lakhs profit in Gold off of a 24 lakhs investment.

This is the actual status, actual holding. If I had the stock/derivative name, and all the numbers right - don't you think the previous screenshot would look flawless? I made some flaws on purpose. It's easy to make things flawless, especially on Kite with some html changes.

And, on Photoshop, it's easy to figure out the font and make edits on NEST screenshot or any other broker terminal screenshot, coz they all almost always use arcane freely available fonts, and it's easy to edit and make things look real on screenshot.

For the really smart but lazy traders, they'd often use two accounts where one hedges another, and post profits in one of the accounts. If you don't even know this kind of a dumb scheme/scam, you're absolutely doomed. How stupider can one get?

Some tra(iners)ders are smart enough to not be dumb, to make it believable, so they post losses also. But when you see their profits - it's almost always in lakhs. When you see their loss like once in a bluemoon, that's like 20-30k. Their comments sections are hilarious!

Hilarious because it just shows you how many wannabes and dumbfucks are out there believing in stuff like this which you can expose as scam with a little bit of research. Coming back to the point, almost all the workshops (except for one or two maybe) are worthless, useless.

I heard some workshops give you additional goodies like software packages that are actually CRACKED and not original, DAMN! I mean, i use cracked softwares and stuff too, but if I were to be a professional at that level, and if i decide to give software, I'd buy it properly.

Especially with respect to trading, you don't wanna use cracked softwares of anything, as you don't know what's cracked (pun intended), and what's unreliable. And, you don't need cracked software to trade/test, honestly. You can use simple google sheets to make basic systems.

Other traders use the concepts of marketing so well, by charging eye-popping fees (50k and upwards) for a one-day workshop, which makes people think there should be equivalent value while the trainer peddles basic stuff you can find on books with a library membership worth Rs.250

These trainers enrich themselves at the cost of the trainees, who even after training aren't profitable or aren't getting where they want (primarily coz most of them are lazy) and keep going to workshop after workshop, lose close to few lakhs on workshops before giving up fully.

Some people want the feeling of validation, ego-stroking for themselves, that they are attending workshops and they are "networking" and getting to know "high profile traders" fooling themselves into believing that they are taking effort/growing. Crock of shit belief that is.

Add to that, most of these guys paying 25000 or 50000 or 10000 for workshops can't afford to lose that money. It's one or two months income for them. What more? Sometimes these workshops teach stuff for people with 25L or above capital and these guys can't even put 5L capital.

So, make no mistake. Stock market is where wealth transfer happens from dumbfucks to street-smarts. Nowadays, this trading training also comes under wealth transfer, where a lot of dumbfucks transfer their "can't afford to" wealth to street smart people, even if it is sad.

The one or two trainers/traders who have good experience and are legit, conducting workshops - even their workshops are useless if you haven't done ground work which most people don't. Mostly they are useful as supplementary knowledge-acquisition.

This trading-training is a huge market today. People make crores of money conducting workshops left and right, all over the country, during weekends. There are arguments for and against these. I'll put forth my end of arguments. And let this thread be a wake up call for you.

1. Look at all the hedge fund managers out there and how hard they try to protect their systems/edges/data. Look at Renaissance which is the best performing HF and how secretive they are. What does this say about having edges in the market over a long time - in being profitable?

2. When word gets out about a system/edge or what they call "ALPHA" - many traders/HFs crowd the edge, and eventually the edge dies out and becomes unprofitable. Which is why when someone has an edge, they protect it and fight tooth and nail to keep it confidential.

3. Also, if someone has such an edge that makes them 600% or so on an annual basis (which goes down % wise as they scale up, but still - that's eye popping as number) in their best years, and 200-300% worst years, wouldn't they wanna scale up and compound more?

4. Also, a trader with such an edge or system, would be working on honing his/her system, or researching more systems that can bring them such results - spending most of their time outside trading either chilling in life, or researching/developing such systems.

5. So, if you can spend 50 weekends on testing and even if you could get one additional system non-correlated to your other strategies, giving fantastic results, you would earn more in a year than you can make conducting workshops for 5 years. What would a smart person do here?

6. Well, if you're smart, you'd put together such systems that can be up and running in different kind of markets, you'd then trade your own money and compound aggressively, or you'd go for OPM and set up funds (out of Singapore or Cayman or whatever) to manage HNI money.

7. And if you're such a highly profitable trader as you portray yourself to be on Twitter, you'd no wonder be able to network and find HNIs who look at your broker verified track record/statements/returns and invest in you and your strategies.

8. If you're able to say get 50 crores, and make even atleast 100% returns (when you're trading like 4-5 crores of your own money) and take 20% fees, you'd make 10 crores. Why wouldn't you want that? If that's 200 crores, you'd net 40 crores. Wouldn't a smart person do that?

9. Why would such a smart person who can make such eye popping returns conduct workshops? Maybe coz you would eventually fail and instead ask him to manage your money and send him your money to invest in his strategies and give you profit? That's one way to acquire clients!

Now, all these questions linger in my mind when I think of successful traders. There could be following reasons in their favor - giving them the benefit of doubt, to conduct workshops.

1. Fuck it, it's easy money, risk-free, and i could just share whatever i have learnt, and people get value or not, i get paid. It's a good gig.

2. I don't wanna manage other people's money and all the hassles that come with it, the regulatory stuff, the IT hassles, etc. I want to be peaceful and trade my own money - but it wouldn't hurt to acquire some risk-free capital. (usually guys with net capital under 50cr)

Coz it doesn't hurt to add 5-10% of your current capital, risk free. Right? Makes sense. You conduct 25 workshops, alternate weekends. 40 people show up to your workshop. You charge 50k. 20L per workshop and after costs, you net about 15-17L. You make about 3-4cr doing that.

Doesn't hurt to add 10% of your capital acquired risk free, when you're managing 30-40 crores. Or even buy a house or a luxury car with it. Good investments/indulgences. This is smart, nothing wrong, nothing illegal/amoral/unethical. This is BRILLIANT. Not for you though.

3. I really am passionate about teaching people, and people want to learn from me through overwhelming dms/requests. So, i am gonna charge a marginal fee for expenses and my time - and teach people whatever I learnt. Comes from a place of altruism (very few trainers/traders).

4. I am content with my current capital level. I like to teach and i don't wanna manage people's money. But i like to help out up and coming traders, love having conversations with them, but i also don't wanna give away my time for free. So, i get paid, and they learn something.

5. There are so many dumbfucks and it's easy to fool people and as long as there are fools, smart people like me can profit out of their foolishness. So, let's find ways to skim and scam people, post MTM screenshots - even doctor them, and bring people to workshop.

There are so many other reasons why people conduct workshops. But these are broadly the classification.

Now there are good amount of good trainers/bad trainers, good traders/fake traders. But there are very few smart trainees/workshop attendees.

Why do people go to workshops though? Most common thing that trainers say is that it helps cut their learning curve, but does it? It does, in some cases. For some people, it gives a headstart. For many, things just fly over their head. This brings me back to the most impt thing.

This is an interesting thing I learnt while i worked at PayPal with the Risk product dev team. If I am facing an issue or going through documentation to learn a product, etc., I used to go directly ask the seniors. Initially i thought there was nothing wrong with it, that i was

accelerating the problem-solving time, trying to get solution from those with experience at first itself. But no, almost all of them told me to try and figure it out by myself first, and if I hit a wall, then come to them.

I wondered, what kind of a moron says that, you want the problem solved, and these people have solutions - why don't I ask them? Then I got the answer through experience. If your first step is to go ask someone the end result of them doing the groundwork, you won't get it.

So, do the following things.

1. Go through Zerodha Varsity - pick up the basics, and strengthen your fundamentals.
2. Go through Chat With Traders podcast - pick up best practices, experiences of prior traders.
3. Go through better system trader podcast - for system trading.

4. Go through popular books on trading that you can find online. Read books/Watch Videos of Mark Douglas, Brett Steenbarger, Mark Minervini, Van Tharp, etc.
5. Go through forums like traderji.com - many different trading systems/methods laid out wonderfully.

6. If you want to pick stocks, go through Valuepickr forum and safalniveshak.
7. Read the TEACH A MAN TO FISH thread on traderji to learn about basic trend following systems.
8. WATCH and Observe the markets on whatever broker you have - every day.

9. Pick up probability & statistics from coursera or MIT OCW, or UCB/Harvard lectures on youtube.
10. Pick up programming from Udacity (if you wanna be a system trader).
11. Whatever you learn, go through charts to understand how the system works - get lots of screentime.

12. Once you have done all these, and you have backtested or seen some strategies work - you trade 1 lot, or smallest size you can - NOTHING CAN REPLACE LIVE TRADING - NO AMOUNT OF READING/WATCHING VIDEOS/PREPPING PSYCHOLOGY.

13. And after all these things, you still aren't profitable, then look at the agenda of the training session that these trainers offer - and see if it would be helpful to you.

14. Options basics, basic trend following, futures trading basics, discretionary intraday trading - picking stocks/derivatives to trade, trading breakouts, Value investing basics, etc., - you don't have to pay a dime for any workshops that do these if you go through the 12 steps.

15. Any workshops that sell systems - don't even bother. If their system was so profitable, they won't be selling it. Basic common sense. Don't be the one that is an example for "common sense isn't so common".

16. If you have done all these and yet you are hitting a brick wall & there's a legit trader out there conducting a high level training that opens your block with 1 or 2-day workshop, take it. Definitely helps. But vet the trainer and his track record before you even pay a dime.

Alas, such workshops/training is really rare. Like one or two maybe. And even that, if you have some basic smarts and common sense, you will get over the block given some time and reflection and journaling.

So, to conclude - there's no real substitute to hard work. Going through charts, screen time, getting your fundamental framework/theory strong, strengthening your basic math skills, and actually trading and figuring things out along the go by educating yourself is the way.

If you thought trading was supposed to be easy and someone will hand out to you a system for 25-50k rupees, and you will trade it successfully, make lakhs/crores, buy your lambo, rolls royce, and beach-view apartment in Juhu - you're in for a really rude wake up call.

Trading is the hardest way to earn easy money. PERIOD. You can't cut your learning curve with 99.99% of training/workshops out there. The 0.01% that do cut your learning curve - are actually hidden in plain sight and don't promote themselves as vigorously as the rest.

So, put in the work. Don't expect a hand out. Don't expect easy/quick money (comes easy, goes easier). Don't expect a one/two day workshop to completely change your trading and be instantly profitable or knowledgeable. Highest possibility nothing will change overnight.

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