Air Marshal Mel Hupfeld (@CAF_Australia) speaks to Air Marshal Geoff Brown (retired) of the @WilliamsFnd, about RAAF Strategic Intent and Future Capability. It’s a 3-part video starting with . 
This is a sort-of live tweet. This interview was probably shot weeks ago but released on August 3. I'll get through as much as I can tonight.
First let's meet our interviewee. @CAF_Australia joined the RAAF in 1980 and flew Mirages and Hornets, eventually commanding 75SQN during Op Bastille & Falconer over Iraq. He's pictured here w/ Gen Charles Q Brown, who just took the reins at @usairforce this week.
(@CAF_Australia can also play bagpipes. Extremely worth mentioning).
His interviewer is Air Marshal Geoff Brown, who retired from the Air Force in 2015. He too joined Air Force in 1980, flew tours on the Hornet & was OC of our F111 Wing before heading fighter and transport ops in Op Falconer in Iraq. He was CAF from 2012-15.
Here he is at Ex Pitch Black 98 when he was CO 3 Squadron, with a techo who is absolutely rocking the rolled up sleeves.
This iInterview is in lieu of @CAF_Australia giving keynote address at function this month. He has been in command of Air Force for 12 months.
@CAF_Australia opens by thanking predecessors for their areas of focus – Houston (people), Shepherd (operational), Binskin (operational/capability), Brown (platforms/systems), & Davies (integration).
@CAF_Australia: “When I came into the job, I tried to sit on my hands…this is a great Air Force, don’t break it” Time was spent looking/reviewing at the Air Force (rather than bringing immediate sweeping change)
Focus in that 12mnths: “What’s Air Force’s place in the joint force…& the importance of air power delivery & effects in the joint force (and whole of government)". The next step? “Where we’re going to.”
Brown: Top 5 priorities for RAAF? @CAF_Australia – 1st three key areas are “Enterprise risks – Workforce, ICT, and Infrastructure”. Workforce – develop our skills. ICT – Key part of our warfighting effort w/ Chief of Joint Capability.
Re: ICT, it's “Not just at the high end – it’s (also) in grey zone". And Infrastrucutre: “Ageing infrastructure from across the nation…and we fight from our garrisons”. We deploy aircraft from air bases direct to ops.
Infrastructure not just "permanent bases" but also covers Bare Bases (like Learmonth and Curtin) and mobile basing.
Fourth continuing priority is “our transition”. Halfway through delivering F35As, still delivering P8. More systems to come. “And that (transition) comes back to other things I was talking about – workforce, ICT, infrastructure.”
Fifth Priority: Culture and Behaviour, working in a continuously operating air force, and understanding implications of that in strategic environment.
Brown: Going back to workforce – 5-6yrs ago, it was an area I thought we could extract more capability from – What’s your thoughts on size of Air Force? @CAF_Australia: “It’s probably about the right size now for the capabilities we have”
@CAF_Australia: “I can see a potential for increasing tasking”. Ability to project force/persistence will require increased rates of effort – one key aspect there is workforce to maintain and sustain/repeat.
“If you want more ubiquity/presence, you need more platforms – but if you need more rates of effort, a lot of that is in workforce” (slight para-phrasing).
Looking at strategic environment – to see how circumstances may change – to look at how we may need to increase workforce. Believes there is more work to do in how much we can get out of people.
“Important we need to take advantage of things like AI where it makes sense to do so. We don’t want to be doing mundane number crunching” on finance or other tasks that can then free-up workforce.
Brown: “A lot of our crew ratios were set back in the 1980s in a very different environment”. Says reliability of platforms aren’t the limitation, it’s now crews that are our limits.
@CAF_Australia – Crew ratio for max sustained effort “that’s where we’ll drive home (whether) we have enough.”
Brown: RAAF has been well-positioned for industrial participation – “we’ve always had robust maintenance and repair” and manufacture of F35A parts. Now a move for more manufacturing, how do you see that manifesting?
@CAF_Australia: As long as we maintain rational and deliberate approach to prioritise for it. COVID-19 has demonstrated importance of supply chains – relying heavily on global supply chains, breakdowns there impacts our capability.
@CAF_Australia: As long as we maintain rational and deliberate approach to prioritise for it. COVID-19 has demonstrated importance of supply chains – relying heavily on global supply chains, breakdowns there impacts our capability.
@CAF_Australia “I would welcome any opportunity” to assure our supply chains resident within Australia industry.
@CAF_Australia I would still want to recognise a capability like F35A – exquisite capability – we’d always be looking to US, or KC30A to Europe – we’d be looking to buy those platforms off the shelf
CAF: Where we gain benefit is positioning Australian industry to be part of the supply chains that support those platforms.
CAF: “The F35A program…I started AIR6000 when I was a WGCDR, back in 1998”. His successor began preparing industry for involvement in 2000. “I’d argue that we were too late.”
CAF: F35A has brought $1.7B – (Brown: Potentially up to $5B) – in work for Australian industry. “One thing that’s certain is Defence is not going out of business anytime soon” with uncertainty in strategic environment.
CAF: “What’s our imagination now of collaboration with industry”. Cites Boeing’s Loyal Wingman as an example but is cautious. “I like Loyal Wingman but I’m not after that platform in the glossy brochure – I’m after the systems.”
CAF: “The technology that underpins (Loyal Wingman) – how do we put a self-manoeuvring aircraft around an F35?” USAF and RAF are doing similar work.
Brown: Concept of Loyal Wingman being done “to a cost” is something he likes because it allows risk. @CAF_Australia: “Don’t be mistaken, the Loyal Wingman is not an F35 – it’s not got the capabilities that are resident in an F35”
CAF: Support and operating the Loyal Wingman on missions will be done by live people in accordance with laws of armed conflict. “That’s a lot of work to get done.” Welcomes the Australian industry role here.
CAF: Another part of Australian industry is emerging space domain. “We have to understand what government wants us to achieve” but says industry engagement here is exciting.
CAF: Australian industry involvement on Space can range from Space domain awareness to rocket engines and hypersonics – “limit of our imagination really.”
CAF: On Jericho – Wants One Stars (Air Commodore-level) to be the sponsors of programs here that can be agile and disruptive (Eamon: Have you seen our C-130J Demonstrator? 😉)
Brown: Back to F35A, one of our planes at Hill AFB (in US) has achieved 1000 flying hours. @CAF_Australia: We’re getting a good understanding of F35 from international customers. Approx 20 in Australia.
CAF: COVID has slowed us down (on deliveries) but mitigations in place and more to come shortly. Still finding ways to deploy people to bring home aircraft.
CAF: COVID may impact F35 IOC but program is coming along very well. “Getting aircraft in hands of operators…allows us to expand the envelope.”
CAF: Infrastructure for F35A is a key marker of success – “SQNs are moving into their new accommodation” w/ ICT & secure spaces – “I compare that to when I first started flying FA18s & we were working from WW2 buildings at Williamtown”
CAF: “We’ve got smart people in the program” and linking to the international community – “It is already a world-leading capability.”
Brown: “So you’ve got a happy bunch of fighter pilots?” @CAF_Australia: “Very.”
CAF: All other fighter crews (Hornet, Super Hornet, Growler) are still very passionate about systems they operate too – “What’s important is seeing how all those systems integrate”.
CAF: “We are integrating our Air Force (eg with Wedgetail) and integrating with Joint Force
Brown: “We both started flying the Hornet in the 90s”, when I left the Hornets looked the same but were a very different platform to the one I started on. That’s what we’ll see with the F35A?
@CAF_Australia: I started flying FA18 in 1986. “We jumped out of the Mirage and straight out of the Hornet, and started operating the Hornet as a Mirage with better weapons. We’re not doing that with F35.”
@CAF_Australia: “We are employing F35A as it’s designed to be employed”. Updates to FA18 throughout its life kept it contemporary – esp against threats it might face – has placed us well to deliver F35A
Brown: 100-year anniversary of Air Force in 2021 – have had to slide Avalon because of COVID – insight into what’s planned? @CAF_Australia: Avalon was (originally) going to be the curtain raiser.
CAF: Major celebration on March 31st (Air Force Birthday) with Colours Parade and new Colour for Air Force (COVID restrictions notwithstanding) followed by regional events.
CAF: “Throughout that year, looking to honour the service and sacrifice of those who came before us, and showcase current capabilities” and demonstrate transition to future force – “What will Air Force look like in next 100 years”.
Eamon: OK, CAF might have said something about ten C-17As in RAAF, earlier in conversation that’s been subsequently edited out, because he’s correcting himself to say we only have 8. Nice bit of banter about how “ten would be nice”.
CAF circles back around to platforms vs workforce balance. We have to prioritise capability (using “more C17As” as an example) in terms of how we balance the force.
CAF: We have 8x C17As, 12 C130Js, 10x C27Js – using Air Mobility as an example, the way we increase capacity (of that fleet) of can be through increasing workforce. Crew ratios are important part of capacity moving forward.
OK, that's the first video of this interview covered, and it took me a little longer than expected. I might re-attack Part 2 tomorrow night (that video is longer). Til then!
Correction, Air Marshal Brown was CAF from 2011-2015. Sorry to sell you short, Sir.
Welcome back! I'm Twitter-summarising Pt 2 of the interview with @CAF_Australia Air Marshal Mel Hupfeld by Air Marshal (retired) Geoff Brown for @WilliamsFnd. You can watch the interview at
Brown: CAF has always had air domain and now taken on the role of space. What’s Air Force’s vision here? @CAF_Australia: We’ve been a capability manager for space for quite some time.
CAF: (we have) access to the US capability but Australia’s geography allows us to contribute significantly to space awareness and control. Once you’ve got (space domain awareness) you can look at how you use space for benefit of national interest and nations in region
Hey @AussieSpaceGirl this is in your domain (lol see what I did there) and it’s right at the start of Pt 2 video (that’s me Eamon saying this, not @CAF_Australia giving you a shout out in the interview)
CAF: Use of space is quite unregulated so our understanding of how it’s being used gives us a better idea of how to be an international contributor
CAF: ADF Chief of Joint Capabilities is lead on space services like GPS. Space is not just military – it supports our way of life.
CAF: RAAF looking at what govt wants, what policy settings are, what industry and international partners need from space. Coordinated through what CDF wants.
CAF: Looking at starting the path in our Air Force Strategy to cover delivery of space power or space power effects. We’re a long way from delivering space power but it is coming. Time is not a luxury that we have.
Brown: General public perhaps unaware of impact on our life of space – biggest piece of free infrastructure is USAF GPS. From my time as CAF, challenge was having sufficient people working on space.
CAF: We have five lines of effort on our Air Force Strategy. First is delivering air power as part of joint force. 2nd is building skilled workforce. That’s a vital part of the space domain. We have to do a better job of how to build those skills in workforce.
Brown: Safe to say this is a priority area for RAAF? CAF: Priority area for joint force. Certainly a focus for Air Force. We have a number of the (areas) of key expertise. Command structures we have align with those needed for space.
CAF: We’ve already established the Australian Air and Space Operations Centre, linked into international partners. Important work here on educating people on space power - @WilliamsFnd can help here.
Brown: Moving on – Raise Train and Sustain for Joint Force, are we adequately set up to train with Fifth Gen? CAF: We’re getting there. 5th Gen is a very useful tagline for us. We’re almost now past 5th Gen and looking at what’s next.
CAF: Navy already in this space with looking at future submarines and frigates, Army already looking at how it ‘digitises’ its workforce.
CAF: How do we train? Looking at F35 and the virtual systems we’re bringing into place, “the only true way you can stress our training system…will be through virtual means”.
CAF: “The F35 is a very smart aeroplane. You can’t fool it by putting up notional adversaries. We have to be better at that….probably virtual means is one of the key areas
(Eamon: Funny story, I remember having this conversation with a @NellisAFB PAO about how F35 had an issue where it was essentially recognising Red Flag adversaries as ‘fake’ which is a really interesting rabbit hole to go down)
CAF: Certainly Live Virtual and Constructive characteristics will be essential to what we’ve called our Fifth Generation training to support our capabilities moving forward
CAF: That’s just F35 – I need to be able to do that with Army and Navy. How do we do that kind of training across joint force?
CAF: If we don’t win in current strategic environment….we will probably find ourselves in conflict and have to be good at high-end warfighting. Live Virtual and Constructive training needs to be done in competition space.
CAF: What else does F35 do (for government) beyond high-end warfighting? “There’s other things it can do as well.” Across wider Air Force, including air mobility, surveillance, Growlers EW and F35 – “it has such strategic effect….I don’t think we’ve realised that yet.”
CAF: Education piece here for Air Force strategy – “How do I explain air power value proposition” for what we can do for whole of government and joint force?
Brown: Importance of joint training – which has always been difficult – I was always taken with Waddington in UK, & the way they trained their joint teams before taking them to Afghanistan. Would it be ideal to have Army Air Force & Navy ops rooms in joint training environment?
CAF: There’s projects underway with Chief of Joint Capabilities. Project 9711 is coming to the heart of just that – how do we better deliver on that level of that training, and stress the force? Are they going to work (when tested).
CAF: How do we bring those capabilities into Joint Operations Command where CJOPS is bringing them into an operational space? How do we train/stress/test multi-domain command and control?
Brown: In my time (as CAF) while we emphasised our own individual training in services, we didn’t quite put enough effort into how we pulled it together.
CAF: We’ve got to build up our core skills. We’re Air Force but what we deliver is air and space power. We’ve got to e able to deliver that.
CAF: Another line of effort for Air Force is culture. What we’re also trying to build is people in Air Force with better understanding of strategic environment, and know how to engage their colleagues and be heard.
CAF: We have to be able to bring voice to Air Force so we can explain (to joint force) how we bring air power (and to whole of government).
CAF: I want COs to deliver at tactical level but understand implications of their work at strategic level; & look at their workforce, who we highly value for what they deliver in tactical space; but then look at others with characteristics & attributes to strategic environment.
CAF: This will make our people more competitive for roles in the joint force and bring more of that understanding into the RAAF.
CAF: If we put people into those positions then I get better advice as the Chief. Then I give advice to govt and CDF for what we can do; and if we want more to be done, this is the risk/resource cost. That makes us more effective as joint force.
Brown: It’s been a challenging time for Australia – bushfires and CoVID – What are your thoughts on Defence spending and pressures on budgets?
CAF: I think the govt’s demonstration of policy settings in white paper is still committing to budget previously committed; govt will certainly try to deliver on that promise. Around Defence budget, we are planning to deliver against budget, and govt is directing us to do so.
CAF: I am a realist. It’s an immense amount of expense and cost to nation as a result of COVID. Id be foolish to think we wont be impacted and we’ll have to contribute to how we recover.
CAF: We can respond to whatever govt requires us to do; whatever tasking we’re given, whatever resources we’re allocated to deliver against those tasks. We’ll continue to job & explain in clear manner what we can do, what risks are, & govt will balance risks in national interests
CAF: We need to be responsible stewards of the resource; we need to recognise we need to pull together with Australian community, and do our part for Australian security. There will be some balance required.
Brown: Honing in on one point about adapting C130s and C27s for firefighting; do you think people understand what a specialist role it is? CAF: It is a specialist role.
CAF: “There’s no doubt Air Force could do a role like that"; under current force structure & investment priorities, & the full range of missions we need to deliver for govt, that means our organisational structure for airlift (C17, C130, C27) there’s a limited number of those...
CAF: ...(and) If we were to configure those for a direct firefighting role, it would mean we take those assets away from other tasks we need them to perform.
CAF: If I compare that with commercial sector, focused purely on that mission – the aircraft and the crews – across Australia I think the anecdotal figure is 300 aircraft used in high-risk bushfire season.
CAF: Compare that with size of our air mobility fleet, we could do those tasks but we don’t really make a huge difference across the firefighting area; but what we do is support firefighting assets & domestic requirements by moving firefighters, equipment, retardant
CAF: If we were doing those firefighting tasks, we wouldn’t be able to do those other (logistics) tasks or evacuating people out of Mallacoota, or bring in water or generators (to stricken areas)
Brown: People underestimate the logistics efforts behind a lot of these operations – people want to see Defence at tip of the spear but it doesn’t make sense when you have organisations with specialist training
CAF: Skills required for firefighting – clearly demonstrated in tragic loss of Coulson C130, it’s a serious task – for us to be able to do that, would require a large amount of dedicated time.
CAF: To have our people prepare an aeroplane for that environment takes additional training that would have to begin before the fire season. We would have to buy a far larger number of assets and equipment and spend more on it.
CAF: The spread of capabilities (in Air Force) is very broad, and for them to operate in conflict requires all of those capabilities – they need to be ready trained and prepared, and other tasks that get given would take away (from this). That’s a key challenge for govt.
OK, that’s Pt 2 of this summary done! All going well, on Sunday night I'll smash out Pt 3 (finale, which is a shorter video) for your Monday morning. Reminder you can watch Pt 2 here:
