The seventh panel I attended at #ConZealand this year was “Justice in Science Fiction and Fantasy”, with @BrentCLambert, @AdriJjy, @MMSnodgrass, and Fred Lerner, moderated by @jennlyonsauthor.
This panel gave me a lot to think about.
This panel gave me a lot to think about.
This thread will include some of the things the panelists said. I’m copying this over from my handwritten notes, so assume I’ve paraphrased unless I put something in quotes.
The panelists began by listing pet peeves about how justice is handled in science fiction and fantasy:
@AdriJjy: I want more about societal institutions and systemic things rather than an individual. And I hate the bad guy getting redeemed by dying.
@AdriJjy: I want more about societal institutions and systemic things rather than an individual. And I hate the bad guy getting redeemed by dying.
More pet peeves:
@BrentCLambert: Characters with power not getting called out on abusing power. Even heroes and good people have unchallenged privilege.
@MMSnodgrass: No sense of process: the hero as judge, juror and executioner, making the decision societies make.
@BrentCLambert: Characters with power not getting called out on abusing power. Even heroes and good people have unchallenged privilege.
@MMSnodgrass: No sense of process: the hero as judge, juror and executioner, making the decision societies make.
The panelists were asked for good examples of stories more focused on the process than on rebels. More than one panelist referenced The Craft Sequence by @maxgladstone.
Panelists were asked how they feel about crimes ignored for entertainment or for the story.
For example, DnD is about breaking into people’s homes and stealing their stuff.
This question was a jumping-off point for a more general conversation.
For example, DnD is about breaking into people’s homes and stealing their stuff.
This question was a jumping-off point for a more general conversation.
From @BrentCLambert: I’m not into stories with two armies where one is presented as all bad and one is presented as all good. Reality isn’t like that.
From @jennlyonsauthor: How many books are there with an assassin as the protagonist?
From @jennlyonsauthor: How many books are there with an assassin as the protagonist?
From Fred: It’s interesting to extrapolate what goes on beneath the surface: the work, who did it, and how. Any society needs lawyers, judges and cops. I want more about these people, their challenges, their motivations.
From @AdriJjy: It’s hard to make us care about the society as it is vs. tearing it up. Look how many books there are about thieves! The noble thief can be as interesting as or more interesting than the noble cop or judge.
From @MMSnodgrass: The beauty of SFF is that we can explore this at an arm’s length. For example, vampires used as a metaphor for people’s discomfort with immigrants.
From @BrentCLambert: SFF is the perfect place to explore this. Me being a free man in the US was a fantasy 300 years ago. It can be a model for bringing justice into the world.
Ask: What’s your purpose in telling the story? What ideas are you bringing to the story?
Ask: What’s your purpose in telling the story? What ideas are you bringing to the story?
The panelists then discussed justice in terms of redemption arcs, and personal vs. societal pardon. How is it handled? How should it be handled?
From @BrentCLambert: Most work falls short because the wrong people get to give forgiveness. For example, a white person forgiving someone for harm against Black people, or Luke forgiving his father when his father destroyed an entire world.
And more from @BrentCLambert: Wrestle with what true forgiveness looks like. Intent doesn’t forgive impact.
From @MMSnodgrass: This is a reason why we need to build in structures for justice. I want societies to have a way to rehabilitate. I would rather see Vader live and be forced to confront the people he harmed, rebuild the planet, and find new homes for people.
More from @MMSnodgrass: I want redemption, but I don’t want it to be easy.
Next, the panelists discussed how racism, sexism, etc. affect who is allowed to have justice and redemption arcs.
From @BrentCLambert: In terms of racism, I hate seeing minority characters sacrificed for the greater redemption of white characters - especially Women of Color.
Prince Zuko is a great example of not doing that.
Prince Zuko is a great example of not doing that.
From @AdriJjy: The Last Airbender hits a sweet spot with the initial antagonist.
From @jennlyonsauthor: That’s the difference between last-minute redemptions and planned redemptions - The Last Airbender is the latter.
From @jennlyonsauthor: That’s the difference between last-minute redemptions and planned redemptions - The Last Airbender is the latter.
Then, the panelists answered audience questions:
First up: Is justice a universal concept, or does it change with the setting and with biology?
First up: Is justice a universal concept, or does it change with the setting and with biology?
From @MMSnodgrass: A system of justice is primarily to make a buck and survive. Without it, there’s killing and chaos. So I can’t imagine a society without some sort of justice. It begins with a concept of property. How do we make our families secure? With a system of laws.
And @AdriJjy mentioned Binti. It’s justice with alien species. It looks at how restorative justice might work in that context.
And from @BrentCLambert: I can’t answer that question because we’ve never had universal justice. There’s been no society with true justice.
Another audience question: To what extent do punishments reflect the society the author lives in vs. the setting of the story? How much is a failure of world building?
From @BrentCLambert: It’s no mistake so much of white American SFF has slavery in it. I’ve only seen it adequately addressed once: The War with the Mein by @DADShadowPrince
From @MMSnodgrass: I’m looking at justice in the superhero world: how do you incarcerate people with superpowers? Do you kill them? Put them in a coma? How do you keep the people safe and what’s just in that system?
Another question: Does anyone really have the full right to forgive someone?
From @AdriJjy: On the individual basis? Yes. But it tends to not be where the good stories are. If someone has wronged an entire group… It can’t just be about the people who feel the least wronged.
From @AdriJjy: On the individual basis? Yes. But it tends to not be where the good stories are. If someone has wronged an entire group… It can’t just be about the people who feel the least wronged.
And another related question: Is part of the problem due to how we tell stories with the individual hero, climax-style arc, and simple closure?
From @BrentCLambert: We have an obsession with forgiveness and a tidy, quick fix so we can move on. But there are ways to discuss process - like @maxgladstone does.
From @MMSnodgrass: We’re trying to look at real issues, but also entertain. That’s in tension with things that touch very deeply. We all want a feeling that ultimately life is fair.
And those are some of my notes from “Justice in Science Fiction and Fantasy.” A good panel that left me with lots of ideas to think about.
I'm writing up threads like this for a number of the panels I attended. I'm collecting them here: twitter.com/i/events/12922…
Happy reading!
Happy reading!
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