One of the seemingly strongest arguments in support of green growth is that an economy can keep growing based on non-material goods and services without using more energy. @Noahpinion distills this into a thought experiment of a Matrix economy. THREAD/1
The Matrix economy is a world where energy/resource input is steady, but GDP keeps growing as we pay more and more for virtual experiences that give us more and more pleasure (paying with virtual work) /2
This is a thought experiment, a parable meant to show that a service-based green growth is possible. The response cannot be that a Matrix world is technically impossible, or socially undesirable, as Keanu and co thought. @Noahpinion does not propose this literally, granted /3
True, however, in the real economy, growth in services comes with growth in energy and resource use. Pop singers spend their millions in learjets. And miners work in mines to buy pop albums /4
Recent research shows that a shift to a service-economy does not reduce resource use because service sector employees making more money will also consume more resources. iopscience.iop.org/article/10.108… /5
We also know that according to real-world scenarios reducing emissions and resource use to sustainable levels is next to impossible with predicted growth rates. The tertiarization of economies does not change this. tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.10… 6
Such real-world observations do not refute the possibility of an endlessly growing weightless economy though they do point to the limits of its real world relevance. Colonizing Mars is also theoretically possible, but this does not make escaping earth a relevant option now. /7
But let’s focus on this as a thought experiment, which is more fun. The interesting feature of any model is its premises. So what does @Noahpinion 's Matrix model assume? /8
The model assumes a constant throughput of energy/resources (presumably at a lower, and more sustainable level than the currently, but that's not so important). And an endless, compound growth of experience-based services that DO NOT use more energy or resources. /9
So, those who make money selling their services in the Matrix economy can buy other experiences, but they can’t buy energy/resources or goods/services made with more energy/resources. /10
As the rest of the economy grows to infinity, the relative cost of energy becomes infinitesimally small. Naturally this would lead to more energy use. But since more energy cannot be bought in the Matrix economy, the cost of energy is maintained by fiat infinitesimally high. /11
Don't get me wrong: I like the world implied in this thought-experiment. I do not mean the world of Matrix, but a world with a steady state of resource/energy use, where the economy revolves around more and better qualitative experiences. /12
Indeed, this is what ecological economists like Herman Daly defined as ‘the steady state economy’. And an economy with low throughput where goods are relational is how Serge Latouche imagined ‘degrowth’ /13
@Noahpinion argues that GDP can still grow in such an economy. Maybe. But in the world of the model this would be nominal, not real GDP growth. Matrix people will have more money, but their money will buy them less/same energy and material goods than we can afford today. /14
If we were to move for a moment also out of sci-fi and back to reality, I find it hard to see how GDP would keep growing if we were to enforce such a strict energy cap, basically limiting the growth of the economy only to growth in services/experiences that do not use energy. /15
Notice that without such an enforced cap, there is no reason why people making more money from services would not use them to buy more energy and energy-intensive goods (a lot more given that the relative price of energy will go down) /16
So such a cap would likely drag economies down, at least initially. But ok, let’s remain agnostic on the GDP effects, because as I said, I actually like @Noahpinion’s implied vision of an economy of low and steady energy/resource use, ‘producing’ experiences and relations /17
You may accept or not that this is close to what we mean by ‘degrowth’. The point is that this vision is extremely radical - much more radical than what comes across as green growth, or even the most radical of the radical Green New Deals /18
It means that we would have to cap not only fossil fuels but all energy and resource use. And that economic activity and life would transition to a completely new set of activities that do not use energy and resources. /19
@Noahpinion criticizes degrowth for its lack of political realism, and for ignoring the needs of the poor. But note that his model implies an similar and dramatic political change - limiting all resource/energy use and making sure this limit is respected /20
The poor by the way in this thought experiment will get richer in terms of access to poems and massages, but not in terms of energy, material goods or what most people consume today /21
Finally: the theoretical possibility of a Matrix economy does not prove that ANY green growth is possible. When people speak of green growth, they mean that more growth will bring greening. Or at least that growth can – and will - be greened. /22
Most green growth proposals focus on efficiency, new technologies, etc. The Matrix thought experiment does not prove that any of this can bring green growth. It says instead, that the economy could still grow if we first put a tight limit that secures greening first. /23
I would say, let’s work then indeed to put such limits and transform the economy into an economy of relations and experiences, and who cares what happens to GDP / END
If you liked this thread and you want to know more about the alternative vision of degrowth, that we juxtapose to that of green growth, check our new book ‘The case for Degrowth’, it is just 25,000 words long.
If you want to go deeper in the issues touched here, check my 2018 book Degrowth. You will find there more on ecological economics, theories of value and debates/controversies around degrowth, with due recognition of the limits of the degrowth proposal. agendapub.com/books/32/degro…
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Our new review paper @TheLancet Planetary Health assesses the literature on #PostGrowth - its claims, evidence, models and open questions. (Thread) sciencedirect.com/science/articl…
#PostGrowth refers to societies that do not pursue GDP growth as an objective, and which are able to meet human needs in an equitable way without growth while staying within their fair share of planetary boundaries.
The concept of #PostGrowth encompasses #DoughnutEconomics, #SteadyStateEconomics, & #Degrowth. While the first two work within capitalism, degrowth calls for a transformation of the economic system to reduce ecological impact & inequality.
Weird method. Say I want to write a review on the state of economics. I choose all articles with the word 'economics' in the title, and then - surprise surprise - I find most of them are reviews. What an indictment of the state of economics: 'they are only writing reviews'!
Ok, maybe 'degrowth studies' (sic) are not the equivalent of economics, but of 'the economy'. So I do a lit review of articles with the word 'economy' in the title, and - surprise surprise - I find that most of them are crappy pieces on the circular or the sustainable 'economy'.
Say you had to write a literature review on the state of 'climate models'. Would you only review articles with the word 'climate model' in the title, or would you go after finding actual articles with climate models?
Alert! I am back on twitter for an hour (wait, did its name change?) and before it gets me depressed I want to share the news of our new paper on the perceptions of degrowth among Euro-parliamentarians. /THREAD
The research was part of @r_mastini's PhD on the Green New Deal and degrowth, and was based on interviews with 41 Members of the European Parliament.
We used Q methodology, which allows yielding representative clusters of viewpoints/opinions among a small and not necessarily representative sample of respondents. The sample must be diverse and cover all possible viewpoints on the topic at stake. Unconvinced? Read our methods :)
The media report these days on a new study that supposedly shows that, after all, not only money buys happiness, but that there is no limit on how much happiness money can buy. But is this so? /Thread. washingtonpost.com/business/2023/…
Context: the study is an ‘adversarial collaboration’ between, on the one hand, Kanheman&Deaton, who had found that happiness increases with income but flattens somewhere between $60,000 and $90,000, and on the other, Killingsworth who found a linear relation with no satiation./2
The new collaborative study is based on Killingsworth’s better data (33,391 US adults prompted on their smartphones to report their current happiness, three times per day for several weeks). pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pn… /3
Why ‘real-existing degrowth’? Because ‘one cannot fight for something that one does not know’.
The degrowth literature up to now has focussed mostly on the ‘big picture’. Carbon budgets, decoupling assessments, and new policy ideas. Good. But unless people can ‘see degrowth’, our analysis will end up merely academic and utopian (in the bad sense of both terms :)).
"A discourse analysis of yellow-vest resistance against carbon taxes" - our new paper is available open access! sciencedirect.com/science/articl… Here is a taste of what you will find there:
This is one of the first rigorous, and peer-reviewed studies of the Yellow Vests movement and their stance on climate change and carbon taxes. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence about the Yellow Vests, but few rigorous studies. /2
For this study, we interviewed 33 protesters. You may think this is a small sample from which we cannot generalize. But the discourse analysis method we used, Q, works with small respondent samples and elicits common discourses by a systematic approach (check methods section!) /3