Thread by @MaryKostakidis

Extradition September hearing Day 15 (17 incl 2 Covid)

Joined the video link waiting to cross to court.

There are 12 of us on this videolink today. Perhaps @kgosztola can tell us how many journalists are on the link at the Old Bailey

The first witness is Maureen Baird, a former senior Bureau of Prisons official in the US.

Wow, she stood up for the judge too. First witness to do so.

Fitzgerald: worked in BOP for 27 yrs till 2016, experience with SAMs.
MB: it’s likely JA would be under SAMs pre trial - Nat sec issue.
Inmates spend 23-14 hours a day in their cell with no communication with other inmates at all. The recreation +ell is an empty cell, alwaysalone

.. allowed 2x15 min calls a month or 1x half hour; contrary to what Kromberg says all mail is screened & can be held up for a couple of months, so not “free flowing”, calls always monitored by FBI agent, inmate had to request a call 2 weeks in advance.

MB: we had 12-15 under SAMs at MCC in a unit built after 9/11 intended for inmates from Guantanamo Bay. SAMs is not discretionary & is the same across prisons, authorised by AG, created after Oklahoma bombing in 1996 & utilised more after 9/11.

MB: unless you are stage 4 cancer inmate, you would go to Florence, that’s where JA would be. There is no cell sharing.
Te challenging SAMs, I have been a case manager & I can tell you nothing happens at the twice yearly review. I used to answer remedies- I’ve never seen a SAMs..

..one approved (there is another internal process but is onerous & leads nowhere).
When I got promoted to NY prison, I received SAMs training & I went to annual meetings with other wardens inc the warden at Florence.

MB: it’s not supposed to be punitive but the consequences are, it’s even more isolated than restricted housing, correctional officers don’t engage in conversation with prisoners, I’ve met with with SAMs prisoners - causes severe depression, anxiety, paranoia, physical deteriora..

..tion, sometimes psychotic condition. (Long shot of JA, sitting up straight against the wall)

MB: agree with Sickler, JA risks being held in H block if he gets a lengthy sentence, “not designed for humanity”, Kromberg talks about programs available - they are not & as for the “phases” they are very minor, eg making it to second stage means you get one more phone call.

MB: any activity/program the inmate would still have to do alone, he can’t associate with family physically- no touching.

MB: he is likely to be SAMS pre trial & post conviction, contrary to being “content” (Dr Lukefeld) at ADX, it’s their fear of going somewhere else that could be worse. SAMs inmates complain about the conditions & litigate their conditions in fed courts & Inter American Commission

MB: does have a robust suicide prevention prog but not effective if someone wants to take their lives - I have experience of this unfortunately, reliance on inmate self reporting can result in successful suicide.
Fitzgerald: El Haj in 2000 (Dobbin referred yesterday) was ..

Permitted to have a cell mate.
MB: not after 9/11. Everything became more strict
Dobbin: questions whether MB is independent because she only acts for defendants ( Dobbin is extraordinary. If an actor wants to hone a sneer in their voice, they need to study this lawyer)

Dobbin quotes from a law firm website describing MB’s experience.

So MB’s experience has been with pretrial SAMs.
MB: terrorists & a drug trafficker (that I recall), no none accused of espionage or NAT SEC in my time there. From what I read the govt says, I think it’s likely he will be SAMs - its very much on the table according to Kromberg

Dobbin: Kromberg says it’s possible.
MB: The AG & Intel decide - my opinion from everything Ove read is that he would meet the criteria ie he is being charged with espionage
Dobbin: he has to be a threat to Nat Sec
MB: I believe the AG could present the case in that way

Dobbin: you can’t speculate
MB: I’m basing it on how much Kromberg focuses on SAMs. This is the first case I’ve worked where SAMs is on the table since I retired & have been involved in about a dozen cases since.
Dobbin: a tiny number are subject to SAMs
MB: 45-50

MB: pretrial all SAMs are the same
Dobbin: in the prison you were at but they can vary depending on the person
MB: modifications would be very rare & minor.

MB: yes, pretrial they are allowed 2 family visits per month, the internal admin remedy has to be exhausted before going to court post trial & pretrial (though Dobbin is saying pretrial they can go straight to court) judges in practice want to know if the internal process has..

... been exhausted.
Dobbin quoting from the Prosecution bundle the case of Hashemi (sp?) where the court heard pretrial the complaint that the prison violated his right to access counsel but found the SAMs to be lawful. Continues, spitting out “Bin Laden’s trusted Lieutenant”..

.. though MB dealt with el Haj earlier.
MB: Prior to 2001 & very much t(e exception, I have never seen that before.
Dobbin: so they have lawyer visits, family, you & your staff.
MB: there are 2 officers on t(at unit but they don’t talk to prisoners.
Dobbin: you were in a positio

..n to encourage your staff to speak with the prisoners.
MB: they open the viewing slot to check the inmate when doing their rounds, they don’t stop. I would stop if a prisoner wanted to talk to me, but I don’t have the authority to do that - they are in a union, it’s not on ..

.. their job description.
Dobbin: oh come on!
MB: it’s just not done. I lead by example, but I couldn’t direct them to do that. That’s not something that’s done in prison. What I want is not what I can enforce.
Dobbin: did you raise any concerns to your supervisor?
MB: no

Dobbin asking MB about Abu Hamsa, the judge in that case described visiting the prison.
MB: I don’t recall the judge in that case coming to the prison or meeting with her or him.
Dobbin: you didn’t express concerns to anyone or encourage staff to converse with SAMs inmates

MB: I tried to be a compassionate employee. The way the prison officers behave towards the inmates is not uncommon.
Dobbin: So these conditions didn’t cause you concern at the time, you are just expressing concerns now.
MB: I didn’t believe I had any control over that at the time

Dobbin asks about transfers to hospital (MB doesn’t remember any) Epstein was first suicide at MCC. You’ve never been to the Alexandria prison, are you in a position to comment on standard of medical care (MB:no, I can’t comment on ADC, I have no knowledge of it)

MB: cases that are similar all get life. We had an espionage case in the mid. 90s & they got life.
Dobbin asks about Reality Winner’s very short sentence. MB doesn’t know anything about that case.
What was the process for placing people at the ADX ?
MB: regional director has to

.. approve.

Dobbin reads that inmates are evaluated, there are reviews of those being considered for ADX, screening out seriously mentally ill. (Me: have been thru this with Sickler - schizophrenia)
MB: serious mental illness in prison means psychotic
Dobbin: there are only 14 with serious

... mental illness at ADX because there were other concerns about them. How do you know ADX is the only place to place SAMs inmates?
MB: other prisons just don’t have the facilities.
Dobbin lists a few at other prisons.
MB: they may be pre trail, female, if your info is correct

MB: “phase 3” on paper at ADX, (who can speak to other inmates), I haven’t heard any have achieved that
Dobbin reading about a phase 3 program. (Shot of JA, his head back against the wall).
MB: very few would make it to phase 3 - it defeats the purpose of what SAMs is for

Dobbin: this is to phase them out of SAMs.
MB: Kromberg describes these programs like they are accessible but there are no grey areas with SAMs & it’s not discretionary.
The witness doesn’t want a break but Ms Dobbin does, so,
10 min break

Dobbin is back on the SAMs phases .. quoting from the Prosecution bundle the numbers of SAMs prisoners incl terrorists who have been through the phases & are being transferred put.
Fitzgerald says the figures are all ADX not confined to SAMs.
Dobbin asks what can she say about

.. phases since 2012.
MB: firstly you say 200 prisoners when there are only 40 or so in SAMs

Dobbin: that is the basis this judge made the decision to allow the prisoner to go to ADX, Do you understand that? (Ouch, she is so patronising)
MB: 5 have been moved out of H unit since 2009.
Dobbin: so you have no idea since 2012.
MB: no

Dobbin: I’m asking you what you know about H unit since 2012 & if you don’t know the basic statistics, how can you predict what will happen to JA.
MB: there are people there who have been there for many years, incl Hamsa plus 3 terrorists.
Dobbin: you can’t name any more?

Dobbin refers to someone who has been moved out but MB can’t comment. .refers to Lukefeld’s statement saying SAMs inmates can have group therapy when the agency who requested the SAMs approves it? (Me why would they give permission for a Nat sec prisoner)

MB: reiterates this isn’t her experience of SAMs
Dobbin asks about Cunningham decision
MB: focus was general prison population, not SAMs
Dobbin: where in the settlement does it exclude SAMs?
MB: (OMGoodness she should respond, no you show me where it says it includes SAMs)

MB: wading through the Prosecution bundle to find the Cunningham settlement.. but says SAMs can’t do group activities.
Dobbin reads from the settlement...re constitutional violations & remedies, saying it’s absolutely clear the settlement benefits everyone at ADX.
MB: no group

.. therapy for SAMs. Dr Lukefeld works in central office not in the field for some years.

MB: if you’re familiar with SAMs & have worked with SAMs inmates, you can’t accept that.. Lukefeld specifically took out SAMs from one area because she didn’t know how it applied to SAMs.
Dobbin: are you in a better position than Dr Lukefeld to know?
Do you agree with Lukefeld..

.. all inmates screened for suicidal ideation & when placed on prevention watch?
MB: yes
Dobbin: program works well?
MB: good program but doesn’t always work.
Dobbin: don’t you agree the rate is good?
MB: one is too many so I can’t say that 10 is low
Dobbin persists but the judge

.. cuts her off saying the witness has answered the question..
Dobbin asks about programs
MB: JA would not be eligible for the autism program, designed for intellectual disabilities.
Dobbin asks her about staffing levels saying ADX has a full complement - a bigger ration of

.. staff to prisoners.
MB: they are offering an incentive at the moment because they are short staffed (remote rural area).

Fitzgerald: you made the point Kromberg says it’s possible JA will be subject to SAMS, & you have had experience with undertakings not to apply SAMs

MB: yes, & he is charged with espionage is significant.
It’s likely he will be subjected to SAMs.
Fitzgerald: re El Haj.. the judgement describes the conditions he was held in as solitary confinement whereas it was put to you there is no solitary in US prisons.
Of the 9 people

..convicted of espionage, both pre & post trial were in SAMs
MB: correct.

Fitzgerald: re Hamsa who has been under SAMs for 5 years, 13 have been for a decade, you believe JA could be indefinitely under SAMs
MB: yes

Fitzgerald asks about those who approve moving out of SAMs or entering a different SAMs phase, it would be the AG & Intel, either FBI or CIA, whichever agency is involved in imposing SAMs.
MB: yes (me, well given what the former head of CIA has said, that’s not going to happen

.. for JA is it).

Witness finished

Judge asks about the “anonymous witnesses”, whether they are agreed. Summers says their discussions depend on the judge’s approval of anonymity.

Lunch break

TYPO S/B 23-24

S/b 23-24

The next witness is up on video - Lindsay Lewis, who also stood for the judge. She is a young woman who appears to be pregnant.

Fitzgerald: you are a US lawyer, at the NY bar & the Supreme Court, practice in a law firm that represented WL in a civil matter, you represented ?.

..Abu Hamsa.

Fitzgerald: representations were made in the English courts that he would not be sent to ADX if he was extradited.
LL: yes

Fitzgerald: European Court & English magistrate relied on those undertakings, he was nevertheless sent to ADX.
LL: yes

LL: held under SAMs pretrial in NY in unit 10 south. (She is sounding underwater). He was almost never out of his cell & we had difficulties seeing him & he always had issues getting family calls. Judge complains about the sound

LL: JA will almost certainly be subject to SAMs pre and post trial because of the Nat Sec issue.

Trying to fix the sound issue, witness will log back in.

Now we can’t see her

5 min break

She’s back!

Now she can’t hear the court. It’s a balancing act. For her to hear, she has to sound somewhat underwater, so we may have done a full circle here...

Fitzgerald: conditions under which Hamsa is held... is he permitted to associate with other prisoners?
LL: not at all. There are long term physical & psychological effects.

LL: mental illness is not a bar - you have to have a very serious mental illness & even if you are psychotic you will remain there is they deem security is a problem & there isn’t anywhere else to put you. The Cunningham privileges are not available to him

LL: if you are in H unit under SAMs, you don’t benefit from Cunningham.

LL: he is frequently moved from cell to cell & that has been made public so I can say that but otherwise I can’t speak about it because of restrictions on me
Fitzgerald: as the lawyer of someone under SAMs
LL: yes
LL: JA would be held under SAMs at ADX, most inmates are ..

..completely alone for many years with a visit or call generally once a month. Difficulties getting family visits for him eg his young grandson who shouldn’t present a security prob (too hard to hear to be sure this is exactly what is said)

LL: there are 13 held under SAMs for over a decade & Mustafa 8 years with no step down (phase). We file complaint after complaint but I don’t of know of any inmate who has succeeded in the internal review process.
Re Al Haj.. my partner represented him. Despite a decision

.. he should have a cell mate, he was back in solitary & still is. Pretrial he was also held under SAMs.
Hashemi was a pre trial case, the court merely accepted to hear his case before exhausting internal review but maintained his SAMs. There are repeated complaints by inmates

.. about insufficient mental or physical health care and complete solitary.
Dobbin: why did you go to Wandsworth prison?
LL: to visit someone who maintains be extradited to the US?
Dobbin: Who?
LL: I’m not at liberty to say, but it was not JA.
Dobbin: asks about how often

..s he visited her client at ADX.
LL: on many occasions I was not able for various prison related reasons to see him.
Dobbin: you were the most junior of his lawyers.?
LL: no.
Dobbin now going thru the charges her client was convicted of - terrorism, Taliban, al Qaida related

Dobbin moving on to the various attempts to appeal, all while he was at ADX?
LL: yes but with great difficulty
Dobbin: he has now you to pursue legal action.
LL: it’s dismissive to not take into account the access challenges that complicated all the litigation, including my

.. current action for him challenging his conditions of confinement but there is a very slow trickle of mail I get for him that hampers progress

Dobbin: Warden Wiley states she is aware he has diabetes & no forearms plus other health probs & IF he is found not to be able to cope with conditions at ADX, he won’t be sent there. That was not an undertaking he would not go there.
LL: judge said there was a commitment from

.. the US govt to the UK govt & clearly without forearms he was not going to be able to cope with living conditions at ADX

(Me:Warden Wiley is a Mr).

Dobbin: Court approached this on a full medical evaluation
LL: but the judge said he could only be in that situation for a very short period of time. The US misled the court because he clearly has been there a very long time.
Dobbin: no assurance

.. was given.
LL: he was supposed to have a full and objective medical evaluation - the US has clearly not followed thru & there has been no transparency.
Dobbin: but the judge doesn’t agree with you
LL: She repeats the judges’ s words, saying , so no, I disagree with you.

Dobbin: Court says the Warden says he is aware of medical concerns, so after full medical evaluation, if he can’t manage activities of daily living, he would not be sent to ADX, he’d be sent to a medical facility.
LL: a full and fair medical was promised by the US prior to ..

.. extradition.

Dobbin covering how they deal at ADX with amputees, prosthetics specialists, push button showers.
LL: they can’t deal with double armed amputees. The only conclusion that can be taken from this is that the US did a 180 & completely backed out of their undertakings.

Lindsay Lewis is a very strong witness & Clair Dobbin has tried on the sneering persona on her. Quite astonishing.

Dobbin quotes what was attempted for her client
LL: there is completely inadequate care at ADX... & there is a complete reframing of what might be done from what would be done if necessary. The BOP has failed him.

Dobbin: quotes judge
LL: that her opinion, but she can’t pronounce the conditions constitutionally unacceptable because what do you do then with all these prisoners.

Dobbin says he was not regarded a hospitalisation case.
LL: he is forced to do things someone with his disability should not be forced to do, so it’s not that he necessarily would need to be hospitalised so that is not the right question.

Dobbin: everything you rely on is based on what Hamsa says
LL: no I also talk to staff
Dobbin: all allleged & need to be tested in court.
LL: there are some things beyond dispute- his is a double arm amputee, in a cell without the right toilet & shower as he had in the Uk

LL: his complaints have been independently verified. He needs daily nursing care which he received in the Uk. He is on his own
Dobbin: he is concerned about his toe nails & dental care.
LL: you have to understand these things worry him more that his serious health conditions ..

.. because unlike for people for whom these things are not a problem, these daily things are impossible - he has to open cans with his teeth & suffers constant infections, similarly toe nails become a problem.
Dobbin asks about step down.
LL basically says it’s overplayed.

Dobbin: 2013 judgement of European Court... quoting statistics showing some are moved out of SAMs
LL: in 2009 there were 30 under SAMs, in 2017 there are 51, so that suggests there are more.
Dobbin asking about the Cunningham Settlement modifications to policies governing ..

.. provision of mental health services, that 100 were moved out?
LL: shows how bad it was despite how good they say they are.

LL: mr Mustafa has not received adequate mental health care.
Dobbin keeps quoting Lukefeld who is describing group therapy.
LL: shows how little she understands about what happens, in t(e vast majority of cases, SAMs are not modified- it brings into question everything Lukefeld

.. says.

LL: his SAMs are arbitrary & punitive - how is not allowing him to tell his 1 year old grandson he loves him.. emblematic of how SAMs destroys relationships between members of a family.
Oh no. Dobbin does have a dig about how LL might draft her argument in court (sneering at

.. “arbitrary “. She just couldn’t resist a cheap shot that just made her look ridiculous . She belongs in a school yard. Primary school.

Fitzgerald asking about deference of the courts to the Executive in the US.
LL: always deference to prisons & the Executive, & unbridled power of the AG under SAMs.
Judge Objects to the use of “deference” of judiciary to the Executive. Fitzgerald tells her it’s the word

.. the courts use themselves. Judge asks for a legal example, Fitzgerald says yes of course, LL offers to give her one & does. I think the judge is rather shocked by this fact.

LL: it makes it difficult to get any progress on minor things within the BOP, there is always a reason they can’t do it for security reasons, or it’s withdrawn, or it hasn’t worked.

LL: JA would not get the level of care he is getting here.

Witnessed finished.

Judge: on the application for anonymity.

Unable to hear Summer.
Lewis: the court has to be persuaded there is a real risk of harm.
Judge: anonymity has already been granted by a Spanish judge?

So this must have to do with witnesses / statements with respect to the surveillance case
Summers: witness 1 asks for anonymity as he & his family are at risk.
Witness 2 - same

Summers: Spanish lawyer Martinez & Baltazar Garzon refers to the protection of anonymity granted by the Spanish court.
The basis: gave statements only after undertaking for anonymity.
Morales has army connections & they are afraid.
Judge: Morales can identify them from their

.. period of employment
Summers: that may be so but the measures taken incl armed security guards is offering protection.

Summers: the knowledge they are protected witnesses is keeping repercussions at bay. Morales has military training, & he has been released provisionally by the court, after what was found at his home (guns etc)

Summers: lawyer says if their names were to become public, Morales & his associates, incl the head of the casino pose a danger for the witnesses & the Sp courts agree & we invite you Madam to also accept anonymity
Summers: Morales & friends to either kidnap or poison JA.

Judge wants a break to consider the issue of whether to accept anonymity. (Me: If she doesn’t, I guess that means the evidence can’t be accepted by the court)

Summers: plans to do physical violence.. need to establish chain of command ordering it, discovery of loaded firearm, & if harm comes to them, it would be clear where it is coming from, if t(e names are revealed, that will not be clear. Morales is the only one at present who

..knows who they are.
Judge she stops him saying Mr Summers I’m with you. This court respects the decision of the Spanish court.

Evidence “we hope will be read” says Summers.
Summers: evidence of Chomsky, Maurizi & numerous others accepted in full by Prosecution, a couple of others with some edits & discussions ongoing with Prosecution on 2 remaining.

Tomorrow, witness Worthington in the afternoon, & reading of statements otherwise. Summers says may finish on Thursday.
Lewis says he has no instructions on cross examining the security company witnesses because of a Chinese wall.

Judge: the press is asking for all the transcripts (yes!).
She says she is unclear who has authority over the transcripts & what is to be done.

Court over for the day!

Medium shot of JA. I hope he feels it’s been a better day.

..has not so far tried on ..