Thread by @Tim_Bousquet

Good morning. I'm at the today's proceedings of the Mass Casualty Commission. This morning, Lee Bergerman is being asked a few final questions by the commissioners, and after a break, Brenda Lucki will begin testifying. #MCC

I'm purposefully late this morning, because I found yesterday's testimony from Bergerman underwhelming. As I wrote for this morning's Morning File (not yet published)... #MCC

Bergerman's testimony wasn't hugely revealing. At one point she said she had not been following the proceedings of the commission because she was out of the country with spotty internet.... #MCC

I don't know where this mythical place is — you can get adequate internet in a hotel room in Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia, and even in what is arguably the most disconnected place on Earth, the unrecognized country of Somaliland... #MCC

It's true that very poor people can't access the internet in many countries (the simply poor can get on the internet via their cell phones), but a Canadian professional retiring from a six-figure job? It's not a credible claim. #MCC

If Bergerman wanted to watch the webcast of the proceedings or access documents, she could have, no matter where on Earth she was. And even if that weren't the case, all #MCC proceedings and documents are archived, and she could've watched/read them on her return to Canada.

I've said before that many of the ranking officers who have testified before the commission are simply incurious — it boggles the mind that they haven't thought about the issues raised since the mass murders, or followed along with the proceedings. #MCC

I think this is absolutely the case with Staff Sergeant Al Carrol, who frankly should've been put out to pasture a decade before the murders, but watching Bergerman testify, I realized I was wrong about the rest of them. #MCC

It's not that they're incurious; it's that they hold the Mass Casualty Commission in contempt. They object to the inquiry's existence, and while not challenging it openly, they are not cooperating. #MCC

Commissioner Kim Stanton suggests to Bergerman that given fiscal reality, budgets may not be able to be increased. Bergerman cannot understand the point. #MCC

Stanton: given social justice criticism of policing, can we reimagine policing in ways that don't just include getting more police dogs and such?
Bergerman: We need more resources.
Bousquet: [bangs head on desk]
#MCC

Bergerman: "Thank you for allowing me to speak my truth"
We're on break for 15 minutes. #MCC

RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki is now testifying. #MCC

Lucki: "I'm a very collaborative type leader" #MCC

The discussion is about how the RCMP implements (or doesn't) recommendations. Mostly general stuff so far. Lucki is a dynamo, and I can't decide if she's "flooding the zone" to dominate the conversation or if she's simply very energetic. #MCC

I'm old and tired and haven't had enough coffee, so there's that, but Lucki exhausts me #MCC

#MCC lawyer Rachel Young: you worried about getting sued?
Lucki: We've got lawyers

Young lists 8 after-action reports related to the mass casualty event, none of which have been finalized. #MCC

Lucki says not everything has to be finalized. She uses the example of the RCMP using the Ready Alert system, which is now used regularly, even though the report on that hasn't been completed. #MCC

Young asks Lucki if she was aware of strained relationships between NS RCMP and other police agencies and politicians. Lucki says she was vaguely aware of it, but only so far as it was reported in the media #MCC

Young: Bergerman said relations with municipal police forces were good before the murders but then deteriorated after the murders.
Bergerman: yep. That's what I saw in the media
#MCC

Young: were you surprised about wellness issues among NS RCMP after the murders?
Lucki: No. A lot happened, and they were being criticized
#MCC

Sorry, 2 tweets up I misnamed Lucki Bergerman. I regret the error #MCC

There's discussion of a wellness report that was written but never made its way to Bergerman & then to her (temporary) replacement, Chris Leather. Lucki says that's because the people who spoke to the interviewers were told it was confidential but then the report named them #MCC

Lucki says the report should've been summarized, but "somebody dropped the ball." #MCC

Young: so there was a year when the dysfunction and problems with retention continued.
Lucki: yes
#MCC

Lucki: people retired for their own reasons, and the "negative narrative" in the public, and not because of the strained relationship between national and provincial divisions of the RCMP
#MCC

Lucki: "when I saw the narrative in the news and some of the theories... it's hard."
[maybe if the RCMP had been more forthcoming with truthful information, those "theories" wouldn't have arisen]
#MCC

Lucki: it wasn't just the murders. George Floyd's murder was in the news. We used to have "thousands" of applications, and that decreased
#MCC

Just putting this out there: I spent $50,000 taking the fucking RCMP to court to get truthful information, and they've opposed me every step of the way.

That was a response to a tweet back at me that has been deleted, sorry.

There's a discussion of succession planning re Bergerman's retirement. Lucki plays it both ways: yes, there were problems, but we're working on it #MCC

Young asks if the NS RCMP's recent practice (started by Chris Leather) of charging the province for services provided to municipal police forces.
Lucki talks and talks, but doesn't really answer the question
#MCC

Lucki: for example, the RCMP provides witness protection, even though 70-80% of those protected are facing provincial charges, not federal charges. That's a cost that's not budgeted for. #MCC

Lucki finally gets around to saying that while various parts of the RCMP are tying to track such costs, there's no national policy. Still, she says, "we will never compromise the safety of Canadians... over dollars" #MCC

Young: the province of Nova Scotia is about to issue new policing standards. Will the RCMP follow them?
Lucki: "it depends." Some federal statutes don't allow us to follow the standards of provinces.
#MCC

Neither here nor there, but Lucki says the idea of allowing new officers get sworn in by using an eagle feather came out of Nova Scotia, and is now used nationally. #MCC

We're on a lunch break until 2pm #MCC

We're back. Young is asking Lucki about communications, post event #MCC

Young: there was an issues management team, including two commissioners from out of province who moved to NS. Has that ever been done before?
Lucki: not really.
#MCC

Young shows Lucki these notes from one member of the issues management team. Lucki says she doesn't remember the meeting #MCC

Young shows this business card from John Robin, a member of the issues management team, which (falsely) claimed that Robin was somehow representing the Mass Casualty Commission. Lucki says she learned of it from the commission #MCC

Young: what'd you do about it?
Lucki: someone was directed to talk to him about it.
Young: what was he doing anyway?
Lucki: I don't know
#MCC

Young: John Robin is Janice Gray's spouse (head of Halifax detachment)
Lucki: yes.
#MCC

Young shows Lucki the RCMP's conflict-of-interest policy

And here's the code of conduct policy #MCC

Young points out that Bergerman's spouse, Mike Butcher, was also on the issues management team. #MCC

Lucki agrees that the appointments were inappropriate, and they were subsequently removed from the team, but no one was disciplined for it #MCC

Young is showing the email Lucki sent to Zita Astravas in the Privy Council, listing weapons. The email states "Please do not disseminate further. Do not pass this information past the Minister (Blair) and the PM (Trudeau) as it is directly related to this active investigation"

Rob Stewart, the Deputy Minister at Public Safety, was cc'ed on the email. Stewart forwarded it to Randall Koops, the associate deputy minister (and apparently the lead on the gun control portfolio) #MCC

Koops asked "Are any of these on the to-be-banned list?" We don't have the response to that.
Lucki says it doesn't matter, as the legislation was already written
#MCC

On April 28, Lia Scanlan sent this email saying Darren Campbell was comfortable saying the weapons were pistols and automatic rifles, but not specifically what kind #MCC

Lucki says she was working from home that day, so she was never shown the email from her coworker. She continues, however, to say that since the killer was dead, there should have been more transparency about the weapons #MCC

In that email, "Brian" is Brian Brennan, the headquarters liaison with H division #MCC

Lucki says her issue was "ARE the weapons going to be released" to the public, not a direction THAT they be released.
#MCC

Lucki: in events like this [???], I normally get 2 or 3 briefing notes a day, but in the week or 10 days after the NS mass murders, I only got maybe 3 total
#MCC

Lucki: the comms division in NS is set up for day-to-day operations, not for big events
#MCC

Lucki says that "normally" headquarters would send a comms team to NS, but they didn't because they were afraid of bringing COVID to the province. MORE

She's not wrong here — the RCMP members brought in from Quebec and Ontario after the murders caused a significant COVID outbreak among NS RCMP, with the associated sick time. #MCC

Young: what recommendations should the commissioners make?
Lucki: "Anything that would keep Canadians safe"
Bousquet: And they wonder why I drink.
#MCC

Young is through. So we'll break for 30 minutes so the families' lawyers can caucus to decide upon cross-examination questions. #MCC

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We got the two-minute warning for proceedings to restart #MCC

Probably the lawyers for the po-po union will have some pointed questions. #MCC

First up is Michael Scott, lawyer with Patterson Law, which represents about half the families. On the side, he manages a mid-size paper company in Scranton. #MCC

Scott: The commission is probably going to issue a 1,000+ page report. Young asked you about recommendations, you said 'anything that can make Canadians safe.' Did I hear you right?
Lucki: I don't know the details.
#MCC

Scott: have you been following the proceedings of the commission?
Lucki: "No. There are people who do that."
#MCC

It amazes me that the leaders of the organization closest to the mass murders are completely unaware of the proceedings of the inquiry
#MCC

Scott: you said the media coverage was negative after the event. You think the RCMP was being treated unfairly?
Lucki: I wouldn't say fair or unfair. "They report, and when we don't provide the information, they'll find it elsewhere" and it might be wrong
#MCC

Scott: in your interview, you suggested that negative media coverage caused poor morale?
Lucki: Yes.
Scott: So, you should be more transparent?
Lucki: we're working on it
#MCC

Scott: a lot of the negative media wasn't because of lack of media training but because of all the bad shit that went down.
Lucki: Well.
#MCC

Scott: the media reported that 2 RCMP officers shot at a volunteer fire dept, that's not negative, that's just what happened.
Lucki: Well, that's a fact, but there's also what was in the mind of the officers, why did it happen. We can supply context
#MCC

Lucki: sometimes there's 3 sides to a story.
Scott: a lot of the negativity is specific. Like, Nova Scotians weren't warned that there was a gunman roaming the province, that's not unfair, it's just true.
Lucki: but there's context
#MCC

Scott: it took 19 hours to locate the Bonds and Tucks. Is there any context that changes that?
Lucki: My heart goes out to the family [she doesn't really answer the question]
#MCC

"Media training" cracks me up. You just tell the truth. It ain't rocket surgery.
#MCC

Scott: "how many courses do you need to take ... to tell the truth?" If the answer is yes, you say yes, if the answer is I don't know, you say, I don't know.
Lucki: I might be able to say something that is value-added
#MCC

Scott: a lot of what the RCMP said after the murders "was not accurate".
Lucki: that undermines trust
#MCC

Scott: Strategic planning, talking points, etc, are "the absolute antithesis of transparency", right?
Lucki: no. We need to correct wrong info.
Scott: so, if there is a false narrative, you can just say what is true.
Lucki: sometimes. It's complicated
#MCC

Scott: a reporter asked Chris Leather "how many people were murdered?" and he said "in excess of 10," but he knew it was 15 and probably more. "What course does Leather need to take" to not say that? Why not just say, "at least 15, maybe more"
Lucki: I agree with you, sorta. But,

Lucki (cont): in policing there's a culture of perfections, and we don't want to get things wrong. People worry abut next-of-kin notifications and such. Leather isn't an expert so he needs professional comms people
#MCC

Scott: oh, come on. We're not talking about releasing names. We're talking about giving the best information you have.
Lucki: I don't want to make excuses, but I understand how it happens
#MCC

Lucki: police testify in court and we pride ourself in giving the most accurate information.
Bousquet: and they wonder why I drink.
#MCC

Scott: "in excess of 10" is misleading
Lucki: no. The intention was "to manage expectations"
#MCC

Lucki: "there was nothing nefarious about it."
#MCC

Scott: there's an entire comms team. Leather and Campbell were surrounded by communications people.
Lucki: I wouldn't say surrounded. Lia Scanlan was very busy, trying to be strategic.
Scott: why do you have to be strategic? Can't you just reasonably answer the questions?
#MCC

Lucki: I shouldn't have said "strategic," I should've said "proactive."
Bousquet: And they wonder why I drink.
#MCC

Lucki: there were several crime scenes, lots of information coming in. Leather couldn't know all that, so he needed some advice.
#MCC

Scott: in September 2020, NS RCMP was going to participate in The Fifth Estate doc, and your office intervened and killed it.
Lucki: yes.
Scott: Findlay was mad about that, and you told her you wouldn't participate "in order to protect the integrity of the public inquiry"

Scott (cont.): how could Darren Campbell participating impact the integrity of the inquiry?
Lucki: We'd prefer that the facts be brought out in the inquiry.
Scott: why?
Lucki: The inquiry needed to do their job first
Scott: why?

Scott (cont): so the concern was that if Darren Campbell did an interview with the CBC, the inquiry wouldn't be needed?
Lucki: "subject matter experts" weighed the pros and cons and the decision was made not to proceed
#MCC

Scott: "There is no possible way" that the interview could interfere with the inquiry.
Lucki: we could've learned new facts.
Scott: so what? If you learn more things, you just say we learned new things.
Lucki: "we'll have to agree to disagree"
#MCC

Lucki: Campbell thought he could go on The Fifth Estate and everyone would feel better about the RCMP. That's not how things work.
#MCC

Scott: People still have a negative view of the RCMP. How do I reconcile that with your earlier statement that being transparent builds public trust?
Lucki: it's an enigma
#MCC

Lucki: "running out in front of the media" just before the inquiry was announced might have been seen as self-serving
#MCC

Scott changes gear, and talks about the family liaison issue: ONE family liaison officer was assigned to all 21 families of the non-cop victims, while TWO family liaison officers were assigned to the one family of Heidi Stevenson
#MCC

Scott: you raised the issue of the importance of family liaison in regards to MMIW four years ago, but nothing has happened in terms of training liaison officers.
Lucki: I don't know.
#MCC

Hi @GillianCBCfifth !
:)

Scott moves on to the (virtual) meeting of April 28. He says Lucki was concerned about the flow and accuracy of information, which Lucki agrees with
#MCC

On April 24, Lucki sent this email to Darren Campbell congratulating him for his communication skills.
Lucki: I was talking about one particular event
#MCC

[pointing out: Campbell got A LOT of things wrong in that presser]

Scott: but you changed your view by the 28th?
Lucki: well, not just with Darren, but with comms in general.
Scott: there was one particular issue you were concerned about (referring to the firearms)
Lucki: it was the straw that broke the camels back, one of many things
#MCC

Lucki maintains that she had been told that Campbell *would* say what the weapons were, but then he didn't, so that was an example of bad info flow. She says she wasn't invested in the issue one way or the other, just that she was misinformed
#MCC

Lucki: I was upset that I upset Lia Scanlan. I don't like to upset people, I'm a team player. "Sometimes I forget I'm the commissioner."
#MCC

Lucki says she had no idea the phone call was an issue until she got this email from Scanlan a year later. Scanlan described Lucki's behaviour as "appalling" and "disgusting" #MCC

There's a long back-and-forth about Scanlan's letter. Lucki suggests that Scanlan misunderstood things, but "I would never want to call anyone a liar... I know what I said, and I know what I didn't say"
#MCC

Scott: all the people you work with in Ottawa who were on the call agree with you, but everyone in Halifax who was on the call agrees with Scanlan
Lucki: I struggle with this... "I find it extremely hurtful"
#MCC

Scott: Scanlan left the phone meeting in tears.
Lucki: I don't want anyone to leave in tears.
Scott: so when you got the letter you called her?
Lucki: no. There was nothing I could say. And she wasn't at work, "I didn't want to affect her wellness plan."
#MCC

Lucki: also, I didn't want to interfere with her testimony with the public inquiry.
#MCC

I can see Lucki's view here, at least so far as not responding to Scanlan
#MCC

Lucki: the PM wanted the gun info about the Christchurch shooting and other shootings around North America
#MCC

Lucki is walking a fine line, re weapons. Here's Kimber's take on it: halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/were-…

Lucki: the aspect about the weapons is being blown out of proportion and politicized. There were a lot of issues — the fake car, and so forth. But lots of media were asking about the weapons
#MCC

Lucki: If I knew the weapons were not going to be released, I would've told Blair, "sorry, the weapons aren't going to be released," and that would've been the end of it
#MCC

Lucki: Minister Blair is a former chief of police, so he knows not to get into political interference.
Scott: do you remember what my question was?
Lucki: no.
#MCC

Scott: Blair never ordered you to say what the weapons were?
Lucki: that's right.
#MCC

Scott: but there was a request from the PM's office, "*can* this information be released?"
Lucki: No. It was "*is* this information going to be released?"
Scott: but the message was, "we'd like to have that info released"
Lucki: "I don't see it that way"
#MCC

Scott: but on the meeting on the 28th, you said it was tied to gun legislation.
Lucki: I was upset because I told them it would be released — *that* is what upset me, that I told them the wrong thing
#MCC

Lucki: "it was not an issue after that... there was no question after that... 'hey, are you going to release that?'"
#MCC

For myself, I think the RCMP should've released the gun info, not for gun control reasons, but simply to inform the public. But the bigger issue, as I see it, is...

Weapons that were used in a mass murder were provided to a foreign national by Americans, in violation of American law, and yet none of those Americans have been charged. Imagine if it were the other way around.
#MCC

Scott: what is the connection between the weapons used in the NS mass murder and the legislation?
Lucki: I don't know of anything.
Scott: so, there was nothing in the legislation about making it harder to smuggle weapons, etc.
Lucki: so far as I know
#MCC

Scott: were the collective pain of my clients being used to advance a crass political agenda?
Lucki: I can't make that connection for you
#MCC

Lucki told the politicians' offices not to disseminate the weapons info
#MCC

Lucki: I was thinking more about the victims' families, not connecting them to smuggling
#MCC

Lucki: sometimes we think we can't release info, but if we think it through, does releasing it really compromise the investigation?
#MCC

We're going round and round here.
#MCC

Today's proceedings are over. Lucki will return at 9:30am Atlantic Time (8:30 Eastern) tomorrow. If you value this reporting, please consider dropping the Examiner a few dollars. Thanks! halifaxexaminer.ca/donate/