Thread by @Tim_Bousquet

Good morning. I'm at today's proceedings of the Mass Casualty Commission. Brenda Lucki is continuing her testimony. You can avoid this thread by muting the hashtag #MCC

My takeaway from yesterday's testimony: It became apparent to me that Lucki rose to her position because she masterfully uses the lingo and distracting babble of bureaucracy to navigate through difficult waters without being drowned by the reality of, well, fact. #MCC

Lucki talks fast and broadly, owning success and placing the blame for failure on a stagnant institution — what are you going to do? #MCC

I came away from yesterday’s proceedings feeling like I had spent the day in a spin class, and not of the stationary bicycle kind. #MCC

Anyway, we continue today, with Lucki being cross-examined by Josh Bryson, lawyer for the Bond family #MCC

Bryson talks about the Mayerthorpe inquiry, which had recommendations about securing crime scenes. Bryson said similar issues were raised after the Moncton shootings, and the Colten Boushie killing. #MCC

Bryson: it took 18 hours and 45 minutes for the RCMP to secure the crime scene in Portapique, including Cobequid Court. Why haven't you raised that issue?
Lucki: You raise good points
#MCC

Lucki: maybe we haven't done a good job communicating policies to our members.
Bryson: you haven't taken any steps to look into this.
Lucki: no, I haven't.
Bryson: why not?
Lucki: "I can't be the one to go down and make sure everything happens"
#MCC

Lucki: we have to understand why this happened. "You have my commitment."
Bryson: when will this commitment be acted on?
Lucki: I have people following my testimony, and they'll make sure.
#MCC

This is what I'm beginning to understand about Lucki: she says she's just a hapless person atop a giant bureaucracy, and she wants things to happen, has all the good intentions, but she's failed by the stagnant institution. The queen's advisors are failing her.
#MCC

Bryson: I doubt the #MCC will make detailed recommendations about crime scene containment.
Lucki: It doesn't matter. You've raised the issues, and "that's good enough for me"

Bryson: you have the power to appoint a board of inquiry.
Lucki: Yes.
Bryson: have you done that for any matter involved with Portapique and the aftermath?
Lucki: No.
#MCC

Bryson reads from the MacNeill report (post Moncton) about command and control, then shows Cpl. Rodney Peterson's affidavit, in which he complains about lack of command guidance #MCC

Bryson: Dorrignton complained about O'Brien coming onto the radio and confusing the chain of command. "These are prevailing themes after Moncton," have you investigated this?
Lucki: No.
#MCC

Bryson details more failures in command and communications, with people on the ground not knowing what's going on. "Do you have any thoughts on that?"
Lucki: I've thought about it; how do you deal with massive amounts of information?
#MCC

Lucki: I think what might be useful is the use of analysts. When there's an event going on that's not just in one house or one location, we bring in an analyst, who says, "OK, we're going to stop, the perp is using a marked police vehicle..."
#MCC

[This is not a terribly insightful observation]
#MCC

Bryson: would have an analyst helped here?
Lucki: for example, someone calls in and says there's a dog running around. Is that important? No, it's not, set that aside... there's a lot of information coming in, some of it useful, some not, some conflicting.
#MCC

Bryson: but you didn't investigation any matter related to Portapique.
Lucki: No, "but there are people looking at all of this"... "I can't tell you who they are, I don't know those details"
#MCC

Lucki: my team is looking at all of this
#MCC

Bryson: it's been 28 months... a slew of cadets have gone through training that have missed any of the potential lessons.
Lucki: I don't know if any of this has been processed by our development group at the training academy.
HER ADVISORS ARE FAILING HER
#MCC

Lucki: "I'm looking at things from the 10,000-foot level," there are people who are looking at things at the detail you're discussing.
The buck stops with other people.
#MCC

Bryson: has the training been adjusted as a result of Portapique?
Lucki: I don't know.... and I probably wouldn't.
#MCC

Bryson: has IARD training been adjusted to deal with nighttime and rural incidents?
Lucki: I think so, but I don't really know.
#MCC

Lucki addressed, sorta, training in her interview with #MCC questioners

Lucki: we're waiting for the #MCC report to come out
Bryson: you think the MCC is going to make recommendations about IARD teams on the ground, when to send in a second IARD team, like that?
Lucki: we don't need those kind of detailed recommendation.
She then babbles on
#MCC

Lucki: [babbles]
#MCC

Bryson shows that Campbell, to his credit, sent John Robbin a request for a detailed review of what happened April 18/19, but that request "died on the vine."
#MCC

Robin, not Robbin

Lucki says some of Campbell's concerns were reviewed, including ERT response
#MCC

Bryson: why wouldn't you go along with the suggestion from H division for a review?
Lucki: "we wanted to give some time and distance to some of the events that were going on."
#MCC

Lucki: "I don't have any detailed knowledge of all the reviews that have been undertaken"... some of these things have been reviewed, but not formally, "I am probably not the best person to tell you all of what has been reviewed"
#MCC

Bryson: so this review won't take place?
Lucki: "It's been held in abeyance
Bryson: It's been 28 months.
Lucki: [doe eyes]
Bryson: when will it take place?
Lucki: "I'm not sure"
#MCC

Bryson: you talk about the need for culture change in the RCMP.
Lucki: let me talk and talk and talk about that. "These will be tracked and reported on in a regular basis and put on our website... we never used to put them on our website"
#MCC

Bryson: the Bastarache Report found that the RCMP has a culture of toxic misogyny and homophobia that can only be addressed from outside the organization, but here you are saying that culture change can happen internally
Lucki: I've talked to Bastarache about that
#MCC

Lucki: we have some external reports coming in.
Bryson: we have one already on sexual misconduct, and we're hiring consultants to look at other matters
#MCC

Bryson: what's the RCMP's relationship with GC surplus (where the killer got his cars?)
Lucki: that's the responsibility of the Chief Financial Officer
Bryson: that's under your umbrella?
Lucki: She deals with it.
Bryson: right
#MCC

Bryson: the dude at GC surplus showed his workers photos of the fake police car and said the killer was building a fake police car
Lucki: Huh.
Bryson: do you find that concerning?
Lucki: "Yes, it's concerning"
#MCC

MacPhee pops in to say that the GC surplus dude doesn't work for the RCMP.

Bryson, moving on to the tweets during the events: did anyone outside NS have anything to do with the tweets?
Lucki: I can't say for sure, but probably not
#MCC

Bryson: the RCMP got a photo of the fake care and 7:30 and it wasn't tweeted out until 10:17
Lucki: I don't know anything about that
#MCC

Now up, Linda Hupman, who represents the Tuck family.
#MCC

Hupman: after Mayerthorpe, it was recommended that there be a threat assessment coordinator. #MCC

Hupman: was that ever done?
Lucki: no
#MCC

Hupman: "ultimately the buck stops with you, correct?"
Lucki: yes, but...
#MCC

Hupman: so you've tracking the progress?
Lucki: "Yes, I have people doing that"
#MCC

Lucki: "even if nothing's happening, nothing happening means something"... why isn't it happening, we need to know why. Maybe there are the resources, OK, but what are we doing to get the resources
#MCC

Hupman: about that threat assessment coordinator
Lucki: that's a fantastic idea. Somebody should probably do something about that. You have my commitment
#MCC

Hupman: on April 18, the IARD team and ERT didn't have the right equipment showing where each person was.
Lucki: yes, "that equipment is dear to my heart." We brought it from the FBI to Grand Prairie, and now all ERT teams have it, and we're rolling it out
#MCC

Lucki: we want people to train with equipment for 5 minutes per shift
#MCC

Lucki: we're also rolling out body-worn cameras, and I'm wondering if those can be used for tracking.
Hupman: well, maybe. You say the tracking gear is going to be ready by 2023?
Lucki: yes.
Hupman: Is that on track?
Lucki: yes
#MCC

Hupman: the RCMP moves people around a lot.
Lucki: no one much wants to stay in the north, so we need to rotate people in and out. But also, that's how we do promotions: maybe there's not a position open in the member's location, so we move them somewhere else
#MCC

Lucki: besides that, moving people around lets people bring in new ideas. That's how change happens.
But boy howdy, we've never lost 3 top commanders in a division at once, like what happened in Nova Scotia.
#MCC

Hupman: nobody much in Bible Hill knew the geography of Portapique. When you send people somewhere a few years and then move them on, maybe that's what happens: they don't have local knowledge.
Lucki: "You raise some excellent points" but maybe technology can solve this
#MCC

Lucki: also, if you've got a poor employee, do you really want to keep them there just because they have local knowledge?
Pass the trash, I guess.
#MCC

We're on a 15-minute break

Out in the corridor, lawyer Michael Scott says that his clients were satisfied when Darren Campbell took responsibility for the failures. Scott says they understand that RCMP officers are people who make mistakes, but owning those mistakes mattered MORE

Scott says that now, however, everything else feels like "deflection"

We're back, with lawyer Tara Miller questioning Lucki about the family liaison issue
#MCC

In her interview with the #MCC, Lucki suggested that family liaison work should probably not be done by uniformed officers but rather by local victims services officers. She now clarifies that, saying "anything to be done with the actual file" needs to be an officer

Miller shows the administrative review of the death of Colten Boushie. Are you familiar with the review?
Lucki: I know about it.
Miller: have you read it?
Lucki: I'd have to look at it
#MCC

Here's the specific recommendation from the review
#MCC

To repeat from yesterday: the families of all 21 civilian victims had ONE family liaison officer for all of them, while the family of Cst. Heidi Stevenson had TWO family liaison officers assigned to them.
#MCC

The family liaison officer for the 21 families was Wayne "Skipper" Bent. Bent was well-intentioned and worked hard, but perhaps because he was untrained for the role, he made some terrible mistakes, like, for example MORE
#MCC

telling Nick Beaton that the investigation was trying to determine whether his wife Kristen was involved in a relationship with the killer (there has never been any indication that this was a possibility).
#MCC

Miller: you were an instructor at depot?
Lucki: yes, the classroom side, like note-taking and law
Miller: then you were a commander at the academy?
Lucki: yes
#MCC

Miller is discussing the wellness report that was discussed yesterday. Bergerman had requested it, but it came back in a different form. I won't get too far into the weeds on this.
#MCC

The gist of this is the report was written but Lucki wasn't aware of it until some random RCMP officer in Nova Scotia asked about it in October 2021.
#MCC

Miller: why didn't it get to you?
Lucki: I don't know, and it disturbs me, so I asked that.
Miller: who'd you ask?
Lucki: the human resources person.
#MCC

Miller now talks about note-taking; Lucki taught note-taking at the academy.
Lucki: It's very important
#MCC

Miller: in the administrative review of the Colton Bousie death, there's a section that deals with note-taking #MCC

Lucki: Note taking is always an issue
Miller: Why is it always an issue? It's such a fundamental part of policing.
Lucki: When I was a constable, I only had to testify in court once, and that's when I understood the importance of notes. But we don't testify in court much now #MCC

Lucki: "the generations are changing. They're not writers. They're texters... generations now are not hand-writers"
#MCC

[I'm an old fart, learned cursive writing in second grade, but I can't read my own writing]

Miller: what about these recommendations?
Lucki: those apply to major crimes
#MCC

Lucki: the big files like major crimes, the notes are usually very good
[I think we're getting eventually to the early contacts with the killer]
#MCC

Miller: You said we have to adjust to a new generation; what is the RCMP doing to modernize note-taking?
Lucki: "I'm not sure"
#MCC

[adding: I know a retired RCMP officer who to this very day, 10 years+ after being on the job, takes notes all day long, and staples all his receipts from stores, etc, to his notes from every day. he's obsessive about it]

Miller now gets to Brenda Forbes 2013 complaint about the killer. 2 of the officers didn't take notes at all, but Cst. Maxwell did, but they weren't very detailed
#MCC

Patricia MacPhee, the federal crown lawyer, speaks up to say that there's Brenda Forbes' version of events, and then there's Maxwell's version.
Miller: I'm getting to the point.
#MCC

Miller: Maxwell's notes were at home, long after he retired. Is there a retention policy?
Lucki: I'd have to review. We just did a thing on exit policy... I *think* there was a recommendation on notes
#MCC

I don't know if this is what Lucki is talking about, but there was a 2019 audit of exit issues, but it specifically did NOT address notebooks rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/audit-emplo… #MCC

Miller: also, the killer threatened his parents, and there were no notes about that.
#MCC

Lucki: sometimes people reform. So, something happened 10 years ago, do we want to base our response to that today?
#MCC

Miller: let's talk about workplace culture
#MCC

Miller: when you became commissioner, did you have any training about leading change?
Lucki: I've gone to conferences, took webinars and courses
Miller: I mean at the time
Lucki: I had a track record
#MCC

Miller: there were issues of trust between H division and headquarters. You said you didn't know the impact of your April 28 call until a year later, when Lia Scanlan sent you a letter.
#MCC

Miller: all of NS senior leadership wanted to do the Fifth Estate, and headquarters nixxed it. Did you explain why?
Lucki: that was Brian Brennan's decision.
Miller: it was demoralizing for them
Lucki: there are all sorts of ideas that come forward
#MCC

Miller: the NS comms team asked headquarters to lead the communications, but that didn't happen. You can see how that would be demoralizing?
Lucki: you need to ask them. "A decision is made, & you need to support it... what happens on the ground is only one part of the decision"

Lucki: when a decision is made, the people on the ground need to support it. They don't know everything going on
#MCC

Miller: Campbell asked for an internal review, and it wasn't. You can see how that would be frustrating?
Lucki: they didn't know everything
#MCC

Miller: Bergerman asked for wellness support, and that didn't happen
Lucki: I contacted a psychologist. I personally made that phone call. We did a lot of things.
#MCC

Miller: when the wellness report finally came out, it said there were issues of trust between H division and headquarters.
Lucki: we're bringing in new people, filling vacancies, etc. We're "getting that division on track"
#MCC

Now up: Tom MacDonald, lawyer for the McLeod family.
#MCC

MacDonald gives a pretty nuanced understanding of the entire RCMP response, saying what they did right, but turns to what went wrong. "Would you agree the response by the RCMP could've been better?"
Lucki: the response could always be better.
#MCC

MacDonald: the lack of awareness of the Alert Ready is a problem, eh?
Lucki: the MacNeill Report said use Twitter, so it's understandable it wasn't top of mind
#MCC

MacDonald: if there was an active shooter used today, would Alert Ready be used?
Lucki: yes
#MCC

MacDonald: Bergerman, Leather & Campbell thought April 28 call was political interference, but you testified that you & your people have a different view. Have you called them to try to reconcile the 2 views?
Lucki: it would've been inappropriate to do so before the #MCC happened

MacDonald: front line officers say they're doing too many administrative duties
Lucki: I agree. And we're working on that. We don't need a general duty member to do financial crime or cyber security investigation
#MCC

MacDonald: should the RCMP get out of municipal and rural policing?
Lucki: all municipalities should review it, but when they do, it's never about service delivery.
#MCC

Lucki: city police have it easy. They're not travelling by snowmobile. They're not travelling an hour to get to a call.
#MCC

We're on lunch break until 2pm.

We're back. Now Jane Lenehan, lawyer for the family of Gina Goulet
#MCC

Lenehan: you're ultimately accountable for the force?
Lucki: yes
Lenehan: and for the safety of Canadians?
Lucki: that's the primary thing
#MCC

Lenehan: Sgt. O'Brien decided to "self-deploy" after having 5 ounces of run. Does that behaviour meet your expectations?
Lucki: it depends on when he had that rum.
Lenehan has the timeline wrong
#MCC

Lucki: I would not expect people to not come into work if they are over the legal limit. I don't have enough details to say in this case
#MCC

Lenehan: after the IARD team went in, O'Brien weighed in and said a second IARD team should not go in. He had had his wife drive him to the office to get the radio and come back home. Was that appropriate?
Lucki: I can't say
#MCC

Lenehan reviews the Dave MacNeil / Chris Leather interaction.
Lucki: people don't appreciation the level that RCMP officers are at. "Chris Leather should no get into the weeds." MacNeil probably should have called someone elses
#MCC

Lucki: you're getting way into details I can't know about. I don't have all the facts.
#MCC

Lenehan mentions the failures of the crime scene at Gina Goulet's house. The house wasn't secured, and some evidence was left. Her daughter was never officially notified that Goulet was killed, nor where her body was taken
#MCC

Lucki: "I'm sorry that happened... there may be all kinds of reasons, but it doesn't really matter because we failed to meet expectations... Nobody would do that intentionally, but it doesn't make it right."
This is the closest Lucki has gotten to expressing real remorse.
#MCC

Lucki: "I'm not here to protect my members... it doesn't appear that they met all the expectations," but I don't know all these details.
#MCC

Lenehan: it's always about passing the buck, it's not my department, you should've asked someone else, etc.
Lucki: it's a big organizations, with lots of structure.
#MCC

Lucki: "things were different in this event than in other events... the benefit of hindsight changes all that"
#MCC

The short of this is Lenehan is asking for accountability from Lucki, and Lucki is using the complexity of the organization as reason why she personally isn't accountability.
#MCC

Lenehan: do you think the 26-week training is adequate?
Lucki: well, it's basic training, coupled with 6 months in the field... we get a lot of requests. Every year we make over 200 changes in our training program.
#MCC

For context, the Halifax PD has a 38-week cadet program

Relatedly, this is a fascinating podcast about this issue, where the chief of police required a university degree: 99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-bl… #MCC

Lenehan raises the issue of whether Halifax PD could've gone across the county border to the area of Shubenacadie (about 20K distance), and perhaps saved Goulet's life.
#MCC

Lucki: when people are in danger, no one is thinking about relationships between police departments.
Lenehan: are you saying Truro police or Halifax police were involved in the response? because they weren't.
#MCC

Lenehan: there were a lot of inter-operability issues, and equipment issues. Should all police in Canada have the same training?
Lucki: it's more complex that
#MCC

Lenehan: the New Brunswick RCMP ERT was brought in rather than the Halifax ERT because of these issues.
#MCC

I spoke with a Halifax cop in the weeks after the murders who told me they and other Halifax cops were extremely frustrated that Sunday morning that they were not allowed to leave the service area
#MCC

Halifax chief of police Dan Kinsella will testify tomorrow afternoon at the #MCC

Lenehan: why is the RCMP called paramilitary?
Lucki gives a lot of explanation before getting to the heart of it: when the RCMP started it was extremely militaristic
#MCC

Lenehan: maybe the paramilitary aspect is what leads to resistance to change
Lucki: I don't think so
#MCC

Lenehan asks Lucki about this: cbc.ca/news/canada/no…
#MCC

Lucki: the board made its decision. "I found there were no errors in the decision making process"
#MCC

Lucki: "It wasn't a decision I took lightly"
Lenehan: do you have any concerns about what it says to female members of the RCMP?
Lucki: Absolutely.
Also Lucki: "There were a lot of mitigating circumstances in this case"
#MCC

Lucki: as a female officer, this is not something I take lightly. "I follow what the process is, I don't always agree with the process"
#MCC

Lucki: "we need to modernize our conduct."
#MCC

Now up: Kelly McMillan, a lawyer with the National Police Federation.
McMillan: what do you have to say to our members?
#MCC

Lucki: I can't imagine what the went through that night. It was "sheer heroism." They did the best they could, putting the safety of others before themselves.
#MCC

Lucki: "to hear the criticism in those first days made me sick to my stomach... I can only imagine what they felt"
#MCC

Lucki: they lost one of their own, another was injured, "I don't know how we get through this"
#MCC

Lucki: it's OK to ask for help
#MCC

Lucki: "there was a person who killed 22 people... a heinous person... somewhat that highly motivated to do harm... if somebody wants to kill somebody..."
#MCC

Lucki: to the families: we are not perfect. We will strive to do better. I hope that one day in your heart, you can find some trust
#MCC

Lucki: it's hard to say we're proud of our members without hurting the families of the victims.
#MCC

Lucki: I played too close to the rules, and I shouldn't have. I should have been more there for the members. And I apologize for that
#MCC

Lucki: those 22 lives, nobody should die in vain. Anything we can do to improve our response...
#MCC

Now up: Patricia MacPhee, the federal crown, who actually represents we citizens but who thinks she represents the RCMP.
#MCC

MacPhee: you probably need more money, eh?
Lucki: money is good
#MCC

Lucki: if a cop in Toronto hits that emergency button, 17 cars with 34 cops respond within 17 seconds, but for us, backup can be an hour away.
[er, I doubt the Toronto stat is true]
#MCC

Lucki: technology costs money. Look at body-worn cameras, it's thousand of cameras, not 17 like in Truro
#MCC

MacPhee: what would you like to say?
Lucki: I'm glad to see the families here. It matters to see their faces, and their pain. I can't imagine the responsibilities of the commissioners. Oh, and the lawyers."I want to apologize for the RCMP. We weren't what you expected us to be"

Lucki: "but, it was extremely heinous... nobody could predict this, so we have to make sure we get this right"
#MCC

There's a 10-minute break before the commissioners ask Lucki questions.

Now, Commissioner Leanne Fitch, who has done contract work for the RCMP, is asking Lucki questions. It seems like a clear conflict-of-interest.
#MCC

For example, Fitch was Vice Chair of the RCMP Management Advisory Board as recently as 2019. secure1.nbed.nb.ca/sites/ASD-W/Fr…
#MCC

Lucki: I was at an open house with NS RCMP members, and a woman said "I just don't see the change." I said, the fact that you can say that is a change.
#MCC

A couple of softball questions about how to change organizations, and how to track and measure change
#MCC

Fitch: it's a big machine, a hierarchy with lots of levels.
Lucki: oh yeah
#MCC

Fitch repeats Lucki's remark that she (Lucki) could not possibly know all the details of the April 18/19 mass murders. Can we explore that a bit?...

For sure, no one could know ALL the details. I forget stuff, and misremember things. I'm sure I've missed things. Same with everyone else here, the lawyers, the families, and so on. STILL...

This was the biggest, most tragic event to hit not just Nova Scotia, but the entire RCMP in, well, ever. And Lucki sits atop the RCMP...

I wouldn't expect Lucki to sit through all the proceedings, but it's entirely reasonable, even expected, that she should have read all the foundational documents, and spend, say, an hour each workday reviewing the proceedings and documents.

I just can't see how she could NOT know details like, say, O'Brien drinking and then taking a command role, or what happened at Gina Goulet's home. Such details are in the foundational documents.

Just my 'pinion.

I'm fading a bit, sorry. It's hard to stay atop this after all these hours. I don't find this part of the discussion all that engaging

Commissioner Kim Stanton is now asking some organizational questions
#MCC

Stanton: in Finland, they have 90% trust in their police force. I think that's because every cop goes through 3 years of training, including participating in research.
Lucki: we have 2 research units in the RCMP.
#MCC

Stanton: everyone says "we need more resources," but I'm assuming more resources are not on the way.
#MCC

This afternoon, I received 40 embargoed documents related to Dan Kinsella's testimony tomorrow. Guess I'll be reading much of the evening.
#MCC

Lucki: I've asked my people to study what we did wrong in terms of participating in this inquiry, so we can do it better next inquiry.
#MCC

Lucki is through testifying. Commissioner Michael MacDonald: we need you to champion our recommendations
#MCC

The commission resumes tomorrow afternoon, with Halifax police chief Dan Kinsella testifying.

If you find this reporting value, PLEASE consider subscribing to the Halifax Examiner: halifaxexaminer.ca/subscription-a… or dropping us a one-time donation: halifaxexaminer.ca/donate/ THANK YOU!

Hey, MacDonald gives a shoutout to the media.

I'm off to read, read, read, see you tomorrow.