Thread by @joseph__place

Right so, let's talk debunking russian nonsense. This thread will be long but I hope you stick with it. I will go through propaganda claims and debunk them and explain how best to do so. In following threads I'll explain how better to bonk and argue. Have to walk before you run.

If you've been following Ukraine for a while, are an expert, or are Ukrainian you most likely won't learn much, this is mostly aimed at those who feel they have gaps in their knowledge.

Number one, "Nazis in Ukraine". The big one. A few things to know. First, for Russians, Nazis is used to mean, a lot of the time, "anti russian". Here is a link which explains this.

csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2…

So for one, it means something very different. But, there are a few particular cases they like to throw out. Let's start with the one that's gone out of favour a bit. Right Sector. Right Sector are a political party with their own paramilitary.

A lot was disussed about their ideology, but they’re definitely nationalist with a mix of some quite extreme people and those less so. They were present at Maidan, along with anarchists, liberals, leftists, regular folks etc.

Here’s a good paper about their overstated role: shron1.chtyvo.org.ua/William_Risch/…

We’ve also got the favourite Azov. Azov started back when russia first invaded in 2014. A paramilitary group assisting in fighting back russians, comprised of football hooligans and others who were quite capable of fighting, as the AFU was in a dire position in 2014

Certainly, in the early days, there were many hard right people involved. Its allegedly somewhat changed now, and it comprises of Jewish members and all sort, that is true (look at these members dancing with Jewish people, for example)

https://twitter.com/KaiVidali/status/1608570529254105089?s=20&t=xnRlHZTGhxkNKMXjWhfRew

When these groups are brought up, it's more accurate to focus on their size than get into debates about what ideology they are. Don’t fall into the trap of saying that nazis don't exist, that's factually untrue, there’s at least 1 nazi. Look at Azov's size vs the AFU

What's more important is that they have no political presence with any influence, and compared to the hundreds of thousands of men and women fighting for Ukraine, they are a drop in the ocean. In addition, the far-right parties in Ukraine, do terribly.

More importantly, focus on actions. Russia, their hard right units (Rusich), and people like Girkin (definitely fascistic) have routinely committed far more atrocities and espoused very dangerous ideologies.
unherd.com/thepost/rusich…

If any country were invaded, of course, the far right would play a role in its defence. Give me any army and you can find far-right people. And what countries have a bigger far right in Europe than Ukraine? Damn near all of them.

https://twitter.com/UkrainianAna/status/1608794831220015112?s=20&t=xnRlHZTGhxkNKMXjWhfRew

So, when Russians say “NAZIS” point out they are a minority, and that the russians do actions fitting nazis, unlike the Ukrainians. Right, NEXT!

MAIDAN COUPPPPPP
NAZI COUP! US BACKED NAZIS!

Maidan revolution, or revolution of dignity, was far from a coup. The people protested en masse, of all political persuasions, against russian wannabe dictator Yanukovich. Who had a mansion with a gold toilet, hardly a man of the people.

His support was in the east of Ukraine, mostly from his reputation there. Many of the same people who voted for him, and his party, were happy to see him go. Why did it start?

theatlantic.com/photo/2014/02/…

He didn't agree to the European association act, leading to protests. Protestors were ordered to be beaten, and protests grew. Local thugs and riot police killed 100 protestors. Many who fled justice. He was declared a criminal, and fled to Rostov. kyivindependent.com/explaining-ukr…

BUT AMERICA PHONECALL! Yes there was a famous leaked call which people think is evidence of US plotting who came to power. This is better debunked here:

https://twitter.com/neil_abrams/status/1573307576959512576?s=20&t=mAFHsCrXXQe9c0jub4wscQ

The reality is, after Yanukovich fled, a government formed of all parties took over before one of the most free and fair elections in Ukraine where Poroshenko became president.

So when people say coup, point out that Yanukovych was declared a criminal, and a free and fair election took place after he ordered civilians to be murdered and turned Kyiv into an oppressive warzone.

ZELENSKY BANNED OPPOSITION
This one crops up a lot and woefully misunderstands Ukrainian politics. The party was restricted then banned when evidence showed many members were actively collaborating. During a war. Of course they were banned.
theguardian.com/world/2022/mar…

Many parties still exist and will continue to do so. Remind them of this, and ask “was it wrong for the UK to ban nazi parties in ww2?” of course it wasn’t. The opposition actually exist in ukraine, unlike in Russia too.

BTW 'Platform fof rlife and peace INCLUDES members for the formerly banned party, who arent colaborators. So there.

BANNED CHURCH
Again, collaborators. The Ukrainian own branch of the orthodox church still operates. The Russian tied church have been shown to collaborate. Just remind people that plenty of churches still operate
pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/…

8 YEARS IN DONBAS
This is one of the more insidious forms of propaganda because it serves to create a “both sides bad” narrative. But, the idea of 8 years of shelling (or even genocide) is a lie.

How many civilians died? Let's look at the UN data. After the initial war, the civilian deaths were very minor, and almost all from mines. Not shelling.

ukraine.un.org/sites/default/…

In Donbas, way more have died with russian aggression. Many deported. So bonk them with the UN stats and comparisons of Donbas prior to 2022 to now.

“Killing ethnic russians/russian speakers”
This is nonsense. One, the distinction between ethnicities is a blurry one when we’re dealing with countries that have been under imperial rule and population deported. Two, there's never been a genocide from Ukrainian side. See above

Three, russian speakers are ALL OVER UKRAINE. Even in Lviv or wherever people can speak russian. People prefer Ukrainian, but the identity does not equal language. Some of the emost patriotic Ukrainians i know actually ONLY speak Russian.

What about Minsk?

Minsk is the trickiest. Because we are dealing with a lot of hypotheticals. What was Minsk and Minsk 2? Tentative peace agreements.

Ru likes to claim that Ukraine didn’t honour the requirement to let the people of Donetsk and Luhansk vote. However, Russia didn’t withdraw its troops to ever even give Ukraine the chance to!

aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/9/…

Merkel recently said Minsk 2 was just to buy time, I actually don't think that's true, I think she's trying to salvage her legacy, as otherwise, they wouldn’t have proceeded with Nord Stream.

So when this is brought up, remind people that russia never withdrew their forces nor took responsibility for their “separatists” to allow for Minsk to work. Perhaps Minsk was never going to work, I don't think this is farfetched, but shifting blame to Ukraine is just unfair.

NATO! EXPANSION! BETRAYED AGREEMENTS! MISSILES POINTED AT RUSSIA!

Ukraine didn’t join NATO at all. They had no NATO assistance when russia annexed Crimea or Donbas. The world really didn’t do much at this stage.

Yes, countries did JOIN NATO in eastern Europe, but that's their right as sovereign countries. There was never any agreement that NATO wouldn’t expand. Yet russia did invade Georgia in 2008, and also had a presence in Moldova. So why would countries want to join NATO perhaps?

What else do we have
Biolabs! FTX! Errrrrrm……JUDEO LIZARD PEOPLE

IGNORE this. This is actual insanity.

How to argue against propoganda?

I will discuss in the future how to argue properly. For now, consider this. Use visual memes which represent these facts. Or create your own. Get the facts down to a nice, clear visual, and bonk them.

Don't waste time going back and forth talking, just show theyre lying. Then mock, and block. Keep your sanity. Did I miss anything? Let me know and i'll try my best!

@pdfmakerapp grab this