Christopher Birrer will be dealt with in a later week. The witness list will proceed today as outlined.
Looking for why advice wasn't progressed to the Australian Government Solicitor.
#RobodebtRC
Looking for why advice wasn't progressed to the Australian Government Solicitor.
#RobodebtRC
The Royal Commission is now in session. Please be seated for the stream. Or not, I'm not the boss of you.
#RobodebtRC
robodebt.royalcommission.gov.au
#RobodebtRC
robodebt.royalcommission.gov.au
Oh okay, we're doing Mark Gladman first. He is affirmed. They're going to try and get through three witnesses before the morning recess.
The former Deputy General Counsel, Programme Advice and Privacy Branch at DHS.
He was working as a lawyer until last Thursday.
#RobodebtRC
The former Deputy General Counsel, Programme Advice and Privacy Branch at DHS.
He was working as a lawyer until last Thursday.
#RobodebtRC
From Dec 2016 to Jan 2017 he held that role in an acting capacity.
Scott takes him to the first exhibit, an email from Paul Menzies-McVey on 6 Jan 2017.
'Sue Kruse would like us to develop a paper on DHS' current practice of averaging income and assuming pro rata'
#RobodebtRC
Scott takes him to the first exhibit, an email from Paul Menzies-McVey on 6 Jan 2017.
'Sue Kruse would like us to develop a paper on DHS' current practice of averaging income and assuming pro rata'
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You understood that to be a reference to ATO data being used to calculate income?
GLADMAN: At that time I had very little understanding on averaging. I didn't have a background in social security law. Menzies-McVey requested dot points from me on averaging.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: At that time I had very little understanding on averaging. I didn't have a background in social security law. Menzies-McVey requested dot points from me on averaging.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: Responding to media reporting. I would have done some investigations. Don't recall whether conversation or email came first.
SCOTT: Request for dot points came before email?
G: Yes.
S: So you understood averaging in a general sense?
G: Used the SS Guide
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Request for dot points came before email?
G: Yes.
S: So you understood averaging in a general sense?
G: Used the SS Guide
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Chief Counsel was Ms. Musolino, who was on leave at the time?
GLADMAN: Correct.
S: Did you understand that M-M had effectively requested legal advice?
G: I'm not sure. He said there'd been a meeting about issues in the media, conversation with Mr. Britton.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: Correct.
S: Did you understand that M-M had effectively requested legal advice?
G: I'm not sure. He said there'd been a meeting about issues in the media, conversation with Mr. Britton.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: Mr. Britton had said 'get the lawyers to explain how we do income. I'm not sure if they used 'averaging', but I understood what was sought was an explanation of how the Department is able to average income. I was thinking of it as being legal advice.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: For the purpose of compiling this document, did you subsequently gain a more detailed understanding of the program?
GLADMAN: Not a detailed understanding.
S: But more detailed, compared to when you received the request?
G: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: Not a detailed understanding.
S: But more detailed, compared to when you received the request?
G: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Who did you get assistance from?
GLADMAN: John Barnett. Provided a draft advice. He lives in Tasmania.
HOLMES: Can you tell us how to get in contact with him? We've been having difficulty...
G: I may have his old phone number.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: John Barnett. Provided a draft advice. He lives in Tasmania.
HOLMES: Can you tell us how to get in contact with him? We've been having difficulty...
G: I may have his old phone number.
#RobodebtRC
[Email chain relating to the compiling of the draft. Lisa Carmody (acting Chief Counsel) and Sue Kruse. Notes that John Barnett is working on his draft.]
SCOTT: What did she mean by 'this kept you all very busy late last week?
GLADMAN: I don't recall.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: What did she mean by 'this kept you all very busy late last week?
GLADMAN: I don't recall.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Do you recall implementing M-M's request involved a substantial amount of work? That it was a top priority request?
GLADMAN: Yes.
S: Recall what you discussed with Carmody at meeting on Jan 9?
G: No. It seems more likely the meeting was on the 10th...
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: Yes.
S: Recall what you discussed with Carmody at meeting on Jan 9?
G: No. It seems more likely the meeting was on the 10th...
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: So there were meetings on the 9th and 10th? By which time you'd seen the draft averaging advice.
GLADMAN: I believe so, yes.
[Scott takes us to the draft advice. Says 'we think there are some reasonable arguments for averaging.']
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: I believe so, yes.
[Scott takes us to the draft advice. Says 'we think there are some reasonable arguments for averaging.']
#RobodebtRC
[It also says 'it may be prudent to obtain external legal advice on this matter'.]
SCOTT: You described your meeting with Ms. Carmody in your statement on the 10th?
GLADMAN: I'd received the first draft advice from Barnett. I started editing to make it clearer.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You described your meeting with Ms. Carmody in your statement on the 10th?
GLADMAN: I'd received the first draft advice from Barnett. I started editing to make it clearer.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: I got to a point where I felt the arguments didn't support a conclusion there was a reasonable basis for the use of income averaging based on the material before me. I also felt there were a number of matters I needed to explore further.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: For the non-lawyers in the room and watching this [hello!], what does it mean when there aren't reasonable arguments to do something?
GLADMAN: That you can't do it.
S: What other aspects did you consider?
G: I had a factual concern, and a legal concern.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: That you can't do it.
S: What other aspects did you consider?
G: I had a factual concern, and a legal concern.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: What was the factual concern?
GLADMAN: We had limited detail on what Robodebt involved. The more I looked at our arguments, the ore I started to question if they were an accurate description of the process. How would averaging work mathematically?
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: We had limited detail on what Robodebt involved. The more I looked at our arguments, the ore I started to question if they were an accurate description of the process. How would averaging work mathematically?
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: I started to question whether there'd been an error in design or implementation.
SCOTT: And the legal concern was there weren't strong arguments to support averaging?
G: Aware of a practice of using last resort, but I didn't understand the legal argument.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: And the legal concern was there weren't strong arguments to support averaging?
G: Aware of a practice of using last resort, but I didn't understand the legal argument.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: I wanted to look for AGS advice, AAT decisions, DSS or DHS legal advice. I thought if it's a long-standing practice, someone must have considered it.
SCOTT: What was your basis of that understanding?
G: The Social Security Guide, I think.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: What was your basis of that understanding?
G: The Social Security Guide, I think.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: What did you understand 'last resort' to mean?
GLADMAN: After inquiries had been made to get material and exhausted other avenues of inquiry to employers etc. I recommended to Ms. Kruse to go straight to getting external legal advice.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: After inquiries had been made to get material and exhausted other avenues of inquiry to employers etc. I recommended to Ms. Kruse to go straight to getting external legal advice.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: In the context of a process where we could do fact-finding, gather existing advices, understand what the Department was trying to achieve, options to re-engineer the process. Slow things down a bit, we'd been given two days. Wanted expertise on the question.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: Also to provide an arm's length consideration or objectivity or something along those lines.
SCOTT: More objective than in-house?
G: Gives people assurance that someone's objectively considering it, yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: More objective than in-house?
G: Gives people assurance that someone's objectively considering it, yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Did you have a particular firm or provider in mind for the external advice?
GLADMAN: AGS seemed appropriate for me. Their background and history with advising Government. I suggested it to Ms. Carmody.
S: You communicated your concerns to Carmody?
G: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: AGS seemed appropriate for me. Their background and history with advising Government. I suggested it to Ms. Carmody.
S: You communicated your concerns to Carmody?
G: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: I told her John Barnett had done his best to come up with this draft, but I had a bit of a look at them and I think the arguments are weak.
[Scott pulls up email from Gladman to Carmody that day where he drafts the request to Leo Hardiman at the AGS.]
#RobodebtRC
[Scott pulls up email from Gladman to Carmody that day where he drafts the request to Leo Hardiman at the AGS.]
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: I'd forgotten about that email until I was preparing my statement. I could only speculate why I did this.
SCOTT: It's draft instructions to Mr. Hardiman?
G: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: It's draft instructions to Mr. Hardiman?
G: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Carmody in response says need to make sure relevant DHS area wants legal advice (Britton's area). Did you make any inquiries?
GLADMAN: No.
S: Were any made?
G: I'm not aware of any.
S: Why not?
G: Carmody said she'd speak to Sue Kruse about it.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: No.
S: Were any made?
G: I'm not aware of any.
S: Why not?
G: Carmody said she'd speak to Sue Kruse about it.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: She was the acting Deputy Secretary and Mr. Britton was a Band 1, so I thought her views would prevail over his.
SCOTT: Do you have any knowledge that Britton might have been opposed to getting external advice?
G: No.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Do you have any knowledge that Britton might have been opposed to getting external advice?
G: No.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Were you aware of any existing enquiries to Legal Services Division?
GLADMAN: I could see that I asked the FOI and Litigation Branch if they'd advised. Given some commentary on some AAT matters. That was it. Not in the form of a legal advice.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: I could see that I asked the FOI and Litigation Branch if they'd advised. Given some commentary on some AAT matters. That was it. Not in the form of a legal advice.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Carmody emailed you back on January 10 saying Leo Hardiman had called her, and he was available once the work had been decided on. When did work on the draft instructions commence?
GLADMAN: Not entirely sure. I believe I'd have asked Mr. Barnett ASAP.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: Not entirely sure. I believe I'd have asked Mr. Barnett ASAP.
#RobodebtRC
[Scott brings up the draft instructions to the Australian Government Solicitor.]
SCOTT: How much more work than this would be needed to prepare instructions to AGS, in your experience? How quickly could these have been conveyed?
GLADMAN: Very quickly.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: How much more work than this would be needed to prepare instructions to AGS, in your experience? How quickly could these have been conveyed?
GLADMAN: Very quickly.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: How long would any further legal material take to develop?
GLADMAN: It could go over pretty quickly.
S: Weeks, months?
G: Not months. A few days, maybe over the next week depending on who's around.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: It could go over pretty quickly.
S: Weeks, months?
G: Not months. A few days, maybe over the next week depending on who's around.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: In your statement you say there was a meeting between Carmody and Kruse about the AGS advice. What was the correction you wanted to make?
GLADMAN: I can't now specifically recall whether Carmody mentioned if it was on the AGS advice or not.
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: I can't now specifically recall whether Carmody mentioned if it was on the AGS advice or not.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: She provided you a document?
GLADMAN: It looked like a printed email, but one that hadn't been sent.
[Scott brings up the document. It says 'social security law doesn't expressly provide for this approach, but we consider it doesn't preclude it either']
#RobodebtRC
GLADMAN: It looked like a printed email, but one that hadn't been sent.
[Scott brings up the document. It says 'social security law doesn't expressly provide for this approach, but we consider it doesn't preclude it either']
#RobodebtRC
Mr. Gladman is excused, and we will now hear from Lisa Carmody.
It's a lightning round this morning.
It's Robodebt Hot Seat.
Ms. Carmody is sworn in. She's the former General Counsel, Commercial Law Branch at DHS.
#RobodebtRC
It's a lightning round this morning.
It's Robodebt Hot Seat.
Ms. Carmody is sworn in. She's the former General Counsel, Commercial Law Branch at DHS.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: What was your role between 6 and 16 January 2017?
CARMODY: In my substantive role 6-9th January, I commenced as Acting Chief Counsel for the Legal Services Division between the 9th and the 15th.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: In my substantive role 6-9th January, I commenced as Acting Chief Counsel for the Legal Services Division between the 9th and the 15th.
#RobodebtRC
[We're largely focused on this same email chain for everyone this morning.]
SCOTT: Was there any discussion with Menzies-McVey of the matter outside of the email he sent you in handing over?
CARMODY: There would have been but I don't recall any particulars.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Was there any discussion with Menzies-McVey of the matter outside of the email he sent you in handing over?
CARMODY: There would have been but I don't recall any particulars.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You conveyed that you requested a briefing from M-M?
CARMODY: I agree with that.
S: Occurred that day around 3:30pm?
C: Multiple discussions with Gladman, yes. In relation to the emails and generally what;s ahead for the week. Not sure of specific topics.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I agree with that.
S: Occurred that day around 3:30pm?
C: Multiple discussions with Gladman, yes. In relation to the emails and generally what;s ahead for the week. Not sure of specific topics.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Draft advice dealing with averaging as it was then used in the Robodebt scheme?
CARMODY: It was dealing with some of the matters raised in the email from M-M. Maybe referred to averaging in a later draft.
S: It mentions averaging in paragraph two...
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: It was dealing with some of the matters raised in the email from M-M. Maybe referred to averaging in a later draft.
S: It mentions averaging in paragraph two...
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Recommendation to get external advice at the end. Do you agree with me it's a draft advice dealing with the lawfulness of averaging?
CARMODY: Yes. With an emphasis on draft advice.
[Did anyone say it wasn't?]
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: Yes. With an emphasis on draft advice.
[Did anyone say it wasn't?]
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Did Gladman mention to you he thought the arguments were weak?
CARMODY: I'm not sure if I recall specifically, but I remember conversations with him that week.
S: Any recollection of him expressing a view at all?
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I'm not sure if I recall specifically, but I remember conversations with him that week.
S: Any recollection of him expressing a view at all?
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: It wasn't apparent to use there was clear legal advice supporting the process at that time. I don't have a specific recollection of Mr. Gladman saying the arguments were weak, but it's apparent to me we didn't express that they were strong.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: What does a lawyer mean when they say 'there are some reasonable arguments to support the process'?
CARMODY: It was a draft response. We thought it was a long-standing process that was more about scale. We thought there was some relevant legal advice...
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: It was a draft response. We thought it was a long-standing process that was more about scale. We thought there was some relevant legal advice...
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: I'm just asking you to translate the phrase into lay-terms, Ms. Carmody.
CARMODY: That there may be a basis to support the process.
S: Is it a phrase often used by lawyers to indicate there may be some arguments, but they may not be strong?
C: I'd agree.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: That there may be a basis to support the process.
S: Is it a phrase often used by lawyers to indicate there may be some arguments, but they may not be strong?
C: I'd agree.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Do you have a recollection of Gladman recommending legal advice be obtained from AGS at your meeting on 10 January 2017?
CARMODY: We did contact AGS so I don't dispute that account of events.
S: Who contacted them?
C: From the documents I contacted them.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: We did contact AGS so I don't dispute that account of events.
S: Who contacted them?
C: From the documents I contacted them.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Leo Hardiman from AGS then called you to discuss. Then you identify you need to make sure that Britton's area wants legal advice. Did you or anyone else make inquiries of them?
CARMODY: I don't recall if I did, possible Gladman or his branch did.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I don't recall if I did, possible Gladman or his branch did.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Did you make inquiries to ascertain whether advice had been sought in the past?
CARMODY: It's my belief inquiries were being made. I was asking questions that week about what other advice might exist that could be useful for me to see. It was being reviewed.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: It's my belief inquiries were being made. I was asking questions that week about what other advice might exist that could be useful for me to see. It was being reviewed.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Did you identify any previous advice from the Legal Services Division about the lawfulness of averaging?
CARMODY: I don't believe I did in that week.
S: Recall telling Gladman on 10 January that you'd speak to Sue Kruse? Do you recall doing so?
C: I don't.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I don't believe I did in that week.
S: Recall telling Gladman on 10 January that you'd speak to Sue Kruse? Do you recall doing so?
C: I don't.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Do you have a recollection of providing this document [the printed email] to Mr. Gladman?
CARMODY: My understanding is I emailed this document in a slightly different form to Gladman and Damien Brazel. I don't recall printing this version or providing it.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: My understanding is I emailed this document in a slightly different form to Gladman and Damien Brazel. I don't recall printing this version or providing it.
#RobodebtRC
[Scott brings up the version she emailed Brazel and Gladman, but then begins asking her about Gladman's draft instructions]
SCOTT: You were aware that draft instructions to AGS were prepared? In this level of detail?
CARMODY: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You were aware that draft instructions to AGS were prepared? In this level of detail?
CARMODY: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You have experience in briefing the AGS?
CARMODY: Yes, done so before.
S: How long would it take to develop those instructions to provide to AGS?
C: There were a few moving parts. It would have taken longer than I was in the role.
S: That's not my point...
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: Yes, done so before.
S: How long would it take to develop those instructions to provide to AGS?
C: There were a few moving parts. It would have taken longer than I was in the role.
S: That's not my point...
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: How long would it usually take?
CARMODY: I'm not trying to be difficult, but it would depend on the circumstances. It depends on the complexity of the matter. It would have taken a couple of days or weeks in this instance.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I'm not trying to be difficult, but it would depend on the circumstances. It depends on the complexity of the matter. It would have taken a couple of days or weeks in this instance.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You could have provided it iteratively over the following weeks?
CARMODY: I'd already reached out to Mr. Hardiman and had a conversation with him, so there didn't appear to be a need to send that email.
S: But you could have done it iteratively?
C: Yes :)
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I'd already reached out to Mr. Hardiman and had a conversation with him, so there didn't appear to be a need to send that email.
S: But you could have done it iteratively?
C: Yes :)
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: This draft from the 13th shows some development. Words in red at the top, being 'DRAFT ONLY', may we take it this was never provided in final form?
CARMODY: Not to my knowledge.
S: 'Hard copy delivered to Sue Kruse', and you did so?
C: Don't recall, but yes
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: Not to my knowledge.
S: 'Hard copy delivered to Sue Kruse', and you did so?
C: Don't recall, but yes
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: Is the note right, is that what you're saying?
CARMODY: I believe it's correct. I can't picture myself in the location where I can say with certainty that I handed it to her or anyone in her office.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I believe it's correct. I can't picture myself in the location where I can say with certainty that I handed it to her or anyone in her office.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: '...circumstances have moved beyond this', what circumstances?
CARMODY: My opinion is that I was referring to the variety of pieces of correspondence that I'd sent to Ms. Kruse, coupled with the Ombudsman's notification of their investigation.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: My opinion is that I was referring to the variety of pieces of correspondence that I'd sent to Ms. Kruse, coupled with the Ombudsman's notification of their investigation.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I believe that notification may have pivoted some of the matters that we were dealing with that week to be focused on the Ombudsman's investigation. My belief is that we'd have paused to redetermine what work needed to be done for that investigation.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I think it was a reference to a moving feast of priorities, as it were.
SCOTT: Not meaning to be critical, but you're speculating about what this meant?
C: I am, yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Not meaning to be critical, but you're speculating about what this meant?
C: I am, yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: 6 Jan email says 'the advice should include a detailed executive summary for use by stakeholders such as the Ombudsman', that's a direct reference to their investigation?
CARMODY: It can be inferred, not sure what was in my mind at the time.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: It can be inferred, not sure what was in my mind at the time.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Putting your work on hold by reason of the Ombudsman's investigation seems to be inconsistent with compiling 'detailed reference to statutory provisions for stakeholders such as the Ombudsman'?
CARMODY: I don't recall it being on hold. [A moving feast.]
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I don't recall it being on hold. [A moving feast.]
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Any recollection of communicating to Ms. Kruse that the Legal Services Divisions recommended that external advice from AGS be sought?
CARMODY: I don't, but I expect that I did communicate to them. Would have been something I flagged with Kruse that week.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I don't, but I expect that I did communicate to them. Would have been something I flagged with Kruse that week.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Any recollection that according to the lawyers assisting you were of the view the arguments in favour of averaging were weak?
CARMODY: I can't recall a specific discussion like that.
S: Your usual practice would be to indicate it to her?
C: Some uncertainty
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I can't recall a specific discussion like that.
S: Your usual practice would be to indicate it to her?
C: Some uncertainty
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: Well, you retained some bits of Gladman's adice, and you added some others of your own. One of the bits you added was that it was 'reasonable and efficient to proceed on the best evidence or information the Department has available'?
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: Wouldn't have prepared it by myself, would have been in consultation with Gladman and others.
HOLMES: Any indication where this came from?
C: [confusing non-answer about 'procedural fairness']
H: Where did it come from?
C: I can't recall.
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: Any indication where this came from?
C: [confusing non-answer about 'procedural fairness']
H: Where did it come from?
C: I can't recall.
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: I'm wondering how a lawyer comes up with this proposition that the best available information makes it permissible, regardless of whether that information was actually probative?
CARMODY: We were thinking the information from the customer would be relied on.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: We were thinking the information from the customer would be relied on.
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: From the customer? The thrust of this is the customer has the chance to comment, and that's good enough, not whether they actually had or not. And this is about averaging, not the customer response. I wonder how a lawyer could say that?
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: Not sure I have anything else to add on that.
HOLMES There's also no section of the Social Security Act pointed to, to justify averaging.
C: No. But-
H: Mr. Gladman had pointed out there WERE provisions permitting averaging in particular circumstances.
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES There's also no section of the Social Security Act pointed to, to justify averaging.
C: No. But-
H: Mr. Gladman had pointed out there WERE provisions permitting averaging in particular circumstances.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I was heavily reliant on the advice of Mr. Gladman of other people who had greater experience in Social Security law than I.
HOLMES: To put it bluntly, this is about as lame an advice as you could get, isn't it?
C: I agree that it's unconvincing.
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: To put it bluntly, this is about as lame an advice as you could get, isn't it?
C: I agree that it's unconvincing.
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: Was it made clear to Ms. Kruse that this advice wasn't really going to hold up?
CARMODY: I don't think we saw it as a basis to do something or not...
H: So, what was the point of it?
C: I can't recall.
H: Right. Thank you.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I don't think we saw it as a basis to do something or not...
H: So, what was the point of it?
C: I can't recall.
H: Right. Thank you.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: If you thought they weren't convincing, the prudent course is to get external advice?
CARMODY: That was clear to me.
S: Knowing your obligations as a lawyer and public servant, can you think of any reason you wouldn't have made it clear to Ms. Kruse?
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: That was clear to me.
S: Knowing your obligations as a lawyer and public servant, can you think of any reason you wouldn't have made it clear to Ms. Kruse?
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I think we'd have made it clear. We'd commenced that process with Mr. Hardiman. I'm comfortable with that in terms of my obligations at the time. I would have told Kruse I'd contacted AGS.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Made clear to Kruse the risks to the Department if AGS advice not obtained?
CARMODY: I don't recall specifically. IT was a small period of time. We were preparing the draft instructions and had contacted AGS. I can't recall.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I don't recall specifically. IT was a small period of time. We were preparing the draft instructions and had contacted AGS. I can't recall.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Surely you did, given you'd identified the arguments were unconvincing?
CARMODY: We hadn't been asked by the relevant business area. We were in the process of pulling it together in response to the email.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: We hadn't been asked by the relevant business area. We were in the process of pulling it together in response to the email.
#RobodebtRC
We have adjourned for the morning recess as Ms. Hogan-Doran needs to take instructions. See you in a tic to complete Ms. Carmody's evidence.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: Ms. Carmody, are you sure somebody in DHS or DSS didn't suggest this notion of 'best available evidence?'
CARMODY: I don't recall discussing it with DSS or DHS.
H: It keeps popping up, like an infection. I don't understand the source of it...
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I don't recall discussing it with DSS or DHS.
H: It keeps popping up, like an infection. I don't understand the source of it...
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Can you think of any reason why the averaging advice wouldn't have been provided to Musolino when you ceased acting for her?
CARMODY: No.
S: Given you thought the arguments were unconvincing, would you have communicated this?
C: I expect so, yes.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: No.
S: Given you thought the arguments were unconvincing, would you have communicated this?
C: I expect so, yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: And also that view had been formed by lawyers within the legal services division?
CARMODY: Yes.
S: Musolino communicated with you on this matter in respect to media attention, despite being on leave?
C: Correct.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: Yes.
S: Musolino communicated with you on this matter in respect to media attention, despite being on leave?
C: Correct.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Is it your experience working with Musolino that she would communicate with lawyers acting for her, while she was on leave?
CARMODY: She probably did, yes.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: She probably did, yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: One final document. Email from Gladman to you on 11 Jan 2017. It's cc'd to the Chief Counsel's office?
CARMODY: Yes. That's the positional email address that Ms. Musolino's staff would be monitoring.
S: For what purpose?
C: Track correspondence etc.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: Yes. That's the positional email address that Ms. Musolino's staff would be monitoring.
S: For what purpose?
C: Track correspondence etc.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Would Ms. Musolino have access to this email box?
CARMODY: It's possible, yes.
S: Her staff certainly would. Would they print emails from that email box and provide them to whoever was acting as Chief Counsel?
C: I think so, yes.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: It's possible, yes.
S: Her staff certainly would. Would they print emails from that email box and provide them to whoever was acting as Chief Counsel?
C: I think so, yes.
#RobodebtRC
[Mr. Scott completes his questioning. Ms. Hogan-Doran has a couple of questions for the Commonwealth.]
HOGAN-DORAN: When did you speak to Leo Hardiman? Between the emails you sent 7 minutes apart, or beforehand?
CARMODY: Possible he called me back between emails.
#RobodebtRC
HOGAN-DORAN: When did you speak to Leo Hardiman? Between the emails you sent 7 minutes apart, or beforehand?
CARMODY: Possible he called me back between emails.
#RobodebtRC
HOGAN-DORAN: When you spoke with him you didn't have formal instructions from the client area at the time? Did you make that clear to him?
CARMODY: I don't remember making that clear, sometimes we foreshadow work in advance of formal instructions.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I don't remember making that clear, sometimes we foreshadow work in advance of formal instructions.
#RobodebtRC
HOGAN-DORAN: Did you have any conversations with Ms. Musolino, other than the email we saw, during the time you were acting for her?
CARMODY: Not that I recall, no.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: Not that I recall, no.
#RobodebtRC
HOGAN-DORAN: Do you recall having conversations with anyone else in the Legal Services Division in preparing these notes, other than Brazel or Gladman?
CARMODY: No.
H-D: John Barnett?
C: Yes, don't recall what in relation to that week.
[What else would it be?]
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: No.
H-D: John Barnett?
C: Yes, don't recall what in relation to that week.
[What else would it be?]
#RobodebtRC
HOGAN-DORAN: You referred to having discussions with Gladman, Brazel and Kruse, were you all co-located in that week?
CARMODY: Yes, we were on the same floor. Most of us were based in Canberra so we could race between offices to discuss things faster.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: Yes, we were on the same floor. Most of us were based in Canberra so we could race between offices to discuss things faster.
#RobodebtRC
HOGAN-DORAN: Do you recall having any conversations with Musolino after she returned concerning the AGS advice?
CARMODY: Not specifically. I know there was some correspondence where she was looking for earlier legal advice and a meeting to discuss external advice.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: Not specifically. I know there was some correspondence where she was looking for earlier legal advice and a meeting to discuss external advice.
#RobodebtRC
[Ms. Hogan-Doran brings up that email from Musolino, on 23 January 2017 to confirm that's what she meant]
SCOTT: Just to clarify, it's your evidence that notwithstanding identifying the unconvincing nature of the arguments, you didn't discuss with Musolino?
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Just to clarify, it's your evidence that notwithstanding identifying the unconvincing nature of the arguments, you didn't discuss with Musolino?
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I don't recall that being my evidence. We had a handover meeting.
SCOTT: Did you communicate your views on the unconvincing nature of the advice on averaging?
C: I can't specify what particular conversation I had, or when. It would have been clear.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Did you communicate your views on the unconvincing nature of the advice on averaging?
C: I can't specify what particular conversation I had, or when. It would have been clear.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: It would have been clear from the documents you provided to Ms. Musolino?
CARMODY: I think so, yes, and the continuing correspondence she would have had with Mr. Gladman.
S: You didn't add anything to those discussions based on your views?
C: It's possible.
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I think so, yes, and the continuing correspondence she would have had with Mr. Gladman.
S: You didn't add anything to those discussions based on your views?
C: It's possible.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Did you communicate to her the extent of any steps that were needed to be taken to brief AGS?
CARMODY: I don't recall specifically communicating with her about that. I'd expect her branch would continue any work that was unfinished.
[Ms. Carmody is excused.]
#RobodebtRC
CARMODY: I don't recall specifically communicating with her about that. I'd expect her branch would continue any work that was unfinished.
[Ms. Carmody is excused.]
#RobodebtRC
To be clear, Commissioner Holmes asked if Mr. Scott wanted Ms. Carmody excused, and he answered 'yes, please' without a beat or even looking up.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
Sue Kruse is affirmed as the next witness.
She's a former General Manager at DHS.
She is now retired. She was acting as Deputy Secretary of Enabling Services for Jonathan Hutson during the week in question in January 2017.
#RobodebtRC
She's a former General Manager at DHS.
She is now retired. She was acting as Deputy Secretary of Enabling Services for Jonathan Hutson during the week in question in January 2017.
#RobodebtRC
[We're going through her statement which contains a description of her Outlook Calendar. Showing meetings from 4 January 2017 with Golightly and Tudge's adviser Mark Wood, Karen Harfield, briefing Porter]
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Email from Golightly relating to 'two customers the 7:30 Report has provided'?
KRUSE: Meetings to prepare Minister Porter to appear on the 7:30 Report. They wanted to discuss the circumstances of those customers. I vaguely remember attending those meetings.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Meetings to prepare Minister Porter to appear on the 7:30 Report. They wanted to discuss the circumstances of those customers. I vaguely remember attending those meetings.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: I'd only been acting in the role for around 24 hours at that point.
SCOTT: Why would there be a meeting with Mark Wood before Porter?
KRUSE: To find out exactly what Porter needed to know as portfolio minister, workflows and screenshots etc.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Why would there be a meeting with Mark Wood before Porter?
KRUSE: To find out exactly what Porter needed to know as portfolio minister, workflows and screenshots etc.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: What occured in the meeting with Porter?
KRUSE: I recall I didn't say much. Over the phone to him in Perth. Golightly led meeting. I recall Minister Porter was typing up his own notes, which was unusual as we would normally have provided him notes in advance.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: I recall I didn't say much. Over the phone to him in Perth. Golightly led meeting. I recall Minister Porter was typing up his own notes, which was unusual as we would normally have provided him notes in advance.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You could hear Porter typing?
KRUSE: Yes.
S: But the talking was done by Ms. Golightly. What did she say during the meeting?
K: About the fact that we'd moved a system from a manual process to online, undertaken since 1981 or earlier, workflows etc.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Yes.
S: But the talking was done by Ms. Golightly. What did she say during the meeting?
K: About the fact that we'd moved a system from a manual process to online, undertaken since 1981 or earlier, workflows etc.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: And Minister Porter then did appear on the 7:30 Report?
KRUSE: Yes, he did appear.
S: You made a summary of what he said there, based on what you watched 'Minister did a good job', 'Victoria LegalAid trying to say social security law wasn't being followed'
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Yes, he did appear.
S: You made a summary of what he said there, based on what you watched 'Minister did a good job', 'Victoria LegalAid trying to say social security law wasn't being followed'
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: They identified the use of averaging specifically. Did you make any other record of the broadcast?
KRUSE: No.
HOLMES: Why were you telling all these people what happened on the 7:30 Report?
K: Media unit was my responsibility in my acting role.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: No.
HOLMES: Why were you telling all these people what happened on the 7:30 Report?
K: Media unit was my responsibility in my acting role.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Don't recall any views being expressed by the legal department that the basis for using averaging was weak?
KRUSE: I don't, no.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: I don't, no.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Emails from Golightly seeking 'lines' about people facing hardship, media lines?
KRUSE: Yes.
S: You replied you should be looking at 'whether we should be hitting the legal angle the LegalAid lawyer seems to be pushing'. Is that angle averaging?
K: No.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Yes.
S: You replied you should be looking at 'whether we should be hitting the legal angle the LegalAid lawyer seems to be pushing'. Is that angle averaging?
K: No.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: It wasn't just around averaging, it was around letters, trying to cover everything the legal professional was saying at the time.
SCOTT: Please listen to my question. One of the issues identified by VLA was lawfulness of averaging, yes?
K: That's correct.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Please listen to my question. One of the issues identified by VLA was lawfulness of averaging, yes?
K: That's correct.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: That was one of the 'legal angles' they were pushing.
KRUSE: Correct.
HOLMES: Golightly is saying you should stick with the line that the formula's been used since 1981, and that it's only used if you don't respond, what Minister Porter had said.
K: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Correct.
HOLMES: Golightly is saying you should stick with the line that the formula's been used since 1981, and that it's only used if you don't respond, what Minister Porter had said.
K: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Is the suggestion you made to look at 'hitting the legal angle' a suggestion that legal advice be obtained?
KRUSE: No, getting lines for media.
S: Lines that represent a legal position would need to be informed by legal advice. Golightly pushed back on that.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: No, getting lines for media.
S: Lines that represent a legal position would need to be informed by legal advice. Golightly pushed back on that.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Email from acting Secretary Barry Jackson on 6 January 2017. 'Did we find out whether averaging is in the lego [sic]?' Do you have any recollection of a discussion about this?
KRUSE: No. I accept that must have occurred.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: No. I accept that must have occurred.
#RobodebtRC
The Royal Commission adjourns for lunch.
Mr. Scott apologises for losing track of time.
Holmes excuses him as he was clearly having so much fun.
I do believe she was being sarcastic.
[Returning in ~90mins.]
#RobodebtRC
Mr. Scott apologises for losing track of time.
Holmes excuses him as he was clearly having so much fun.
I do believe she was being sarcastic.
[Returning in ~90mins.]
#RobodebtRC
Daily gratitude time: your support's been immense while I've been up here in QLD. I've crashed through 7000 followers, and 250+ individual donations.
It was a big risk for me to take on, but it's clear I've made the right choice. Thank you!
#RobodebtRC
gofundme.com/f/robodebt-roy…
It was a big risk for me to take on, but it's clear I've made the right choice. Thank you!
#RobodebtRC
gofundme.com/f/robodebt-roy…
There's a fair bit on today - elsewhere the #PovertyInquiry continues. AUWU member @phonakins is streaming it on Twitch!
https://twitter.com/phonakins/status/1629996543184080896?s=20
@phonakins You can also get around @JeremyPoxon, @ej_australia, @antipovertycent, @AntiPovertyWeek, all providing live tweets of that inquiry. Many others too I'm sure.
#PovertyInquiry
#PovertyInquiry
One thing I'm struggling to adjust to, after almost 10 years on benefits, is this concept of being able to feed myself three times a day. Transitioning to strenuous full-time work, my brain is requisitioning carbs from my body at a rate I can barely keep up with.
#PovertyInquiry
#PovertyInquiry
We're back.
Ms. Hogan-Doran advises that her instructors have made contact with John Barnett on the phone number provided to them by Mr. Gladman.
The Tasmania-wide manhunt is off, then.
#RobodebtRC
Ms. Hogan-Doran advises that her instructors have made contact with John Barnett on the phone number provided to them by Mr. Gladman.
The Tasmania-wide manhunt is off, then.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Golightly advising in this email that they don't *think* the Ombudsman are asking a specific question about the legislation, but one is being prepared?
KRUSE: I agree, yes.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: I agree, yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Email from Menzies-McVey confirming he's 'set the wheels in motion on this advice as the top priority for next week?' The title being 're: legal advice on averaging'. The next morning you thank him for his email.
KRUSE: Correct.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Correct.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: In this context, that Mr. Jackson's question, if averaging was in the legislation, was a request from legal advice?
KRUSE: Yes.
S: If that request were to be withdrawn, it would have had to have been by either the acting or regular Secretary?
K: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Yes.
S: If that request were to be withdrawn, it would have had to have been by either the acting or regular Secretary?
K: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
[Scott takes her to the two versions of the draft instructions to the AGS]
SCOTT: Is it your evidence you weren't involved in the decision to prepare the draft instructions?
KRUSE: That's correct.
S: You're not aware of who communicated that decision?
K: No.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Is it your evidence you weren't involved in the decision to prepare the draft instructions?
KRUSE: That's correct.
S: You're not aware of who communicated that decision?
K: No.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You say in your statement that, had you seen them, you would have provided the draft instructions to Ms. Golightly?
KRUSE: Correct.
S: Why?
K: Well, I'm not a lawyer, so I'd need to understand them. Golightly owned the program and they were prepared for it.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Correct.
S: Why?
K: Well, I'm not a lawyer, so I'd need to understand them. Golightly owned the program and they were prepared for it.
#RobodebtRC
[To the 'there are some reasonable arguments' version of the draft advice.]
SCOTT: And you would have done the same with this version of the draft instructions, had you seen them?
KRUSE: That's correct.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: And you would have done the same with this version of the draft instructions, had you seen them?
KRUSE: That's correct.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You were on the same floor as the Legal Services Division?
KRUSE: Same floor as the lawyers and the media.
S: How far was your workspace from Ms Carmody or Ms Musolino?
K: Maybe 100 steps. Would see them over an ordinary day.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Same floor as the lawyers and the media.
S: How far was your workspace from Ms Carmody or Ms Musolino?
K: Maybe 100 steps. Would see them over an ordinary day.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: And you don't have any recollection of discussing this advice with either of them?
KRUSE: I do not.
S: No recollection of Ms. Carmody indicating there was uncertainty about averaging, or that the arguments in favour were unconvincing?
K: I do not.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: I do not.
S: No recollection of Ms. Carmody indicating there was uncertainty about averaging, or that the arguments in favour were unconvincing?
K: I do not.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Were you aware that the LSD recommended getting advice from the AGS? And had taken steps toward that?
KRUSE: I was not aware this was occurring.
S: And if you had?
K: I would have talked to the program owner. No problem seeking external advice, not unusual.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: I was not aware this was occurring.
S: And if you had?
K: I would have talked to the program owner. No problem seeking external advice, not unusual.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: If the program area had reasons for not doing it, I would have to take it to the Secretary to resolve the issue.
SCOTT: Kathryn Campbell?
K: Yes, or Mr. Jackson as acting.
S: No reason you wouldn't have told them or Golightly?
K: None whatsoever.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Kathryn Campbell?
K: Yes, or Mr. Jackson as acting.
S: No reason you wouldn't have told them or Golightly?
K: None whatsoever.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: What would you have done on your handover to Mr. Hutson, had you known about this?
KRUSE: Anything 'hot' or critical I would have provided him with an update.
S: You'd seen the 7:30 Report?
K: I had assurances from the program area there was no issue.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Anything 'hot' or critical I would have provided him with an update.
S: You'd seen the 7:30 Report?
K: I had assurances from the program area there was no issue.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: The media contained critique of the lawfulness of averaging. This would have been 'hot', correct?
KRUSE: I would say it would be what we call a hot topic, yes.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: I would say it would be what we call a hot topic, yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: This form of the draft advice was delivered to you in hard copy on the 13th...
KRUSE: I don't recall receiving it. I'm not saying it wasn't.
S: You would have discussed it, given the normal practice you outline?
K: I would have discussed it with the author.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: I don't recall receiving it. I'm not saying it wasn't.
S: You would have discussed it, given the normal practice you outline?
K: I would have discussed it with the author.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You agreed the email from Mr. Jackson on 6 January was a request for legal advice on averaging. This appears to be a draft of that advice.
KRUSE: It does, yes.
S: M-M had indicated a 'top priority'. You were days away from finishing as acting Dep. Sec.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: It does, yes.
S: M-M had indicated a 'top priority'. You were days away from finishing as acting Dep. Sec.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You surely would have communicated anything that the author of this document told you, to Mr. Jackson?
KRUSE: Yes.
S: And to Ms. Golightly?
K: Yes.
S: But you have no recollection at all of receiving it? That seems extraordinary.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Yes.
S: And to Ms. Golightly?
K: Yes.
S: But you have no recollection at all of receiving it? That seems extraordinary.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: I'm sorry, I don't. I wish I did.
SCOTT: Surely you have SOME recollection? Given the circumstances?
K: No.
S: Any recollection of the request from Mr. Jackson being finalised?
K: I'm assuming I actioned it, because I have an email saying so.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Surely you have SOME recollection? Given the circumstances?
K: No.
S: Any recollection of the request from Mr. Jackson being finalised?
K: I'm assuming I actioned it, because I have an email saying so.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You have no recollection of that advice being provided prior to you ceasing your acting role?
KRUSE: No.
S: Even though M-M had indicated a 'top priority'. I suggest to you that's strange.
[Mr. Scott completes his questioning.]
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: No.
S: Even though M-M had indicated a 'top priority'. I suggest to you that's strange.
[Mr. Scott completes his questioning.]
#RobodebtRC
HOGAN-DORAN (Cth): You gave evidence there was an assurance from the program area that there wasn't an issue. Where was this from?
KRUSE: Emails from Golightly and Harfield on the 3rd or 4th that they'd been doing this for a long time.
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Emails from Golightly and Harfield on the 3rd or 4th that they'd been doing this for a long time.
#RobodebtRC
HOGAN-DORAN: Do you have any independent recollections of these things, or is this entirely on your review of documents?
KRUSE: Everything is from my review of documents.
[Can someone ask if she independently remembers what her date of birth is?]
#RobodebtRC
KRUSE: Everything is from my review of documents.
[Can someone ask if she independently remembers what her date of birth is?]
#RobodebtRC
Ms. Kruse then left DHS to go to the Prime Minister's office as a senior policy adviser by April 2017. Cool.
That completes her evidence.
Senior Counsel Assisting Justin Greggery KC is here, to question Andrew Asten, former Chief of Staff to Alan Tudge MP.
#RobodebtRC
That completes her evidence.
Senior Counsel Assisting Justin Greggery KC is here, to question Andrew Asten, former Chief of Staff to Alan Tudge MP.
#RobodebtRC
Mr. Asten worked as a solicitor, then adviser to Tudge, then for Boston Consulting Group, then Chief of Staff for Tudge, than back to BCG where he is now. Good stuff.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Was there an overview between your responsibilities for welfare reform as adviser, and technology and digital transformation?
ASTEN: They were fairly discrete. Digital transformation regarded MyGov or WPIT.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: They were fairly discrete. Digital transformation regarded MyGov or WPIT.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Welfare reform was making mutual obligations targeted compliance framework fairer for vulnerable recipients.
[Fairer than Michaelia Cash's concept for it is what I imagine he meant. I have spent years fighting the TCF, a disgraceful penalty points system.]
#RobodebtRC
[Fairer than Michaelia Cash's concept for it is what I imagine he meant. I have spent years fighting the TCF, a disgraceful penalty points system.]
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You irst became aware of the compliance scheme operated by DHS in the latter half of 2016?
ASTEN: In the later period of that half.
G: In the context of information provided by DHS and the media generated through the Minister's office?
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: In the later period of that half.
G: In the context of information provided by DHS and the media generated through the Minister's office?
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Conversation with Mark Wood and Rachelle Miller, yes.
GREGGERY: Your first awareness of use of averaging was in January 2017, according to your statement?
A: Yes.
G: Porter acting for Tudge and sent many requests for information?
A: I was also on leave.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Your first awareness of use of averaging was in January 2017, according to your statement?
A: Yes.
G: Porter acting for Tudge and sent many requests for information?
A: I was also on leave.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Did you request documents from the Commonwealth that might be relevant?
ASTEN: I didn't do that, I didn't realise that was a step I could or should take.
G: What about your decision not to obtain legal representation?
A: Didn't think Cth needed to pay.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I didn't do that, I didn't realise that was a step I could or should take.
G: What about your decision not to obtain legal representation?
A: Didn't think Cth needed to pay.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Happy to assist the Commission without that.
GREGGERY: But your willingness to assist the Commission is limited by the extent to which you sought access to documents.
A: That's what I said in my statement, yes.
[Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.]
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: But your willingness to assist the Commission is limited by the extent to which you sought access to documents.
A: That's what I said in my statement, yes.
[Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.]
#RobodebtRC
[Greggery takes him through some emails that show him keeping on top of the media situation.]
GREGGERY: What do you recall happening on your first day back at work?
ASTEN: Minister deeply engaged in meetings with Secretary and other Departmental officials.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What do you recall happening on your first day back at work?
ASTEN: Minister deeply engaged in meetings with Secretary and other Departmental officials.
#RobodebtRC
Tudge sends him an email: 'PM sent me this one and has the clearest critique. Please forward this to malisa [sic].'
[It's the SMH @PeterMartin1 article on Centrelink's 'weapon of math destruction']
#RobodebtRC
[It's the SMH @PeterMartin1 article on Centrelink's 'weapon of math destruction']
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Communicating about upcoming meetings via WhatsApp.
GREGGERY: You haven't asked for any WhatsApp messages from the Commonwealth?
A: No. I didn't know I could.
G: You must have read the article, though?
A: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You haven't asked for any WhatsApp messages from the Commonwealth?
A: No. I didn't know I could.
G: You must have read the article, though?
A: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Raises issues with legality, and it also raises 'false estimates of debts', a mathematical difficulty as well in notionally dividing income over fortnights. Did you understand this?
ASTEN: Questions to be discussed, not sure I understood the full meaning.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Questions to be discussed, not sure I understood the full meaning.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What did you advise the Minister?
ASTEN: He requested Department briefings going through every aspect of the OCI scheme. I don't recall adding a personal perspective given the Department's expertise.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: He requested Department briefings going through every aspect of the OCI scheme. I don't recall adding a personal perspective given the Department's expertise.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Attendees at these meetings?
ASTEN: Campbell, Gary Sterenberg, Golightly, Musolino.
G: Just because Departments have expertise, doesn't mean you lose your advisory role, does it? You need to make sure the wool isn't being pulled over his eyes...
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Campbell, Gary Sterenberg, Golightly, Musolino.
G: Just because Departments have expertise, doesn't mean you lose your advisory role, does it? You need to make sure the wool isn't being pulled over his eyes...
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I had a high degree of trust in the senior public servants.
GREGGERY: But how could you reconcile what was being said to the Minister, with what was being said in the media?
A: My perspective was the OCI had implementation issues. That's what I was hearing.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: But how could you reconcile what was being said to the Minister, with what was being said in the media?
A: My perspective was the OCI had implementation issues. That's what I was hearing.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You simply accepted what you were told by the Department?
ASTEN: I'd say the Department had clear and full answers. Long-term practice.
G: One thing to say we've always done something, it's another to say that it's lawful?
A: Clear implication it was.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I'd say the Department had clear and full answers. Long-term practice.
G: One thing to say we've always done something, it's another to say that it's lawful?
A: Clear implication it was.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Surely you would have asked the question yourself in your advisory role?
ASTEN: I don't agree with that.
G: So you didn't ask?
A: I don't recall whether I did or not.
G: Weren't you concerned, given the criticism of the lawfulness in media?
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I don't agree with that.
G: So you didn't ask?
A: I don't recall whether I did or not.
G: Weren't you concerned, given the criticism of the lawfulness in media?
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: DHS/DSS were both very confident in their policy position.
GREGGERY: Policy is one thing, but law is another matter. Did you ever double-check?
A: It wasn't within the ambit or scope of my role.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Policy is one thing, but law is another matter. Did you ever double-check?
A: It wasn't within the ambit or scope of my role.
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: The implementation had only started a couple of months earlier and it's creating havoc. Lawfulness is being raised. It seems a fundamental question on what permits this to occur?
ASTEN: I don't recall myself asking about it.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I don't recall myself asking about it.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: It was a long-standing practice of Governments of both colours.
HOLMES [disgusted face]: I mean, as I told another witness, burglary is also a 'long-standing practice'.
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES [disgusted face]: I mean, as I told another witness, burglary is also a 'long-standing practice'.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Were you involved in this letter from ACOSS or meetings in the Minister's office?
ASTEN: Wasn't significantly involved.
G: Do you recall the Minister was upset that ACOSS published information about the meeting?
A: I recall that happening at some point.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Wasn't significantly involved.
G: Do you recall the Minister was upset that ACOSS published information about the meeting?
A: I recall that happening at some point.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Did you provide the Minister with any advice on how to address the concerns raised about the accuracy of the notices?
ASTEN: No.
G: Did he ask for it?
A: No. My involvement was minimal. I passed it on.
G: A conduit role?
A: I don't understand.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: No.
G: Did he ask for it?
A: No. My involvement was minimal. I passed it on.
G: A conduit role?
A: I don't understand.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You're not saying you had no awareness of this letter or the issues that it raised?
ASTEN: I was generally aware of the letter, I don't believe I engaged with the detail.
G: Whose responsibility was that?
A: Mark Wood was the relevant policy adviser.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I was generally aware of the letter, I don't believe I engaged with the detail.
G: Whose responsibility was that?
A: Mark Wood was the relevant policy adviser.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Did the Minister ask anyone in your office for advice about the concerns in the letter?
ASTEN: I'd be speculating.
G: All you know was, he didn't ask you?
A: That's all I recall.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I'd be speculating.
G: All you know was, he didn't ask you?
A: That's all I recall.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Did you ever get a sense that stopping the program was on the table?
ASTEN: There was no sense of any authorisation where it was open to the Minister to even pause the program, let alone cancel it.
G: Even if it was unlawful?
A: Our advice said it was.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: There was no sense of any authorisation where it was open to the Minister to even pause the program, let alone cancel it.
G: Even if it was unlawful?
A: Our advice said it was.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Surely where questions are raised about legality, you can't just say 'well it's been decided and the Minister's inherited it. We have to press on?'
ASTEN: May have been conversations I wasn't involved in.
G: Did you do anything?
A: They were discussed.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: May have been conversations I wasn't involved in.
G: Did you do anything?
A: They were discussed.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I may not recall all the details I would like to, but the questions were answered at the time.
GREGGERY: The words you described earlier was 'we have done this for a long time'. As a previously-practising lawyer, you appreciate that's not legal advice?
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: The words you described earlier was 'we have done this for a long time'. As a previously-practising lawyer, you appreciate that's not legal advice?
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I would have understood that was not legal advice...
GREGGERY: And yet it was the response to the question by the Minister, about whether it was lawful?
A: I don't recall what the Minster asked.
G: You gave evidence it was asked about?
A: Can't recall how.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: And yet it was the response to the question by the Minister, about whether it was lawful?
A: I don't recall what the Minster asked.
G: You gave evidence it was asked about?
A: Can't recall how.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I recall it was discussed whether income averaging was appropriate. I can't assist you any more than that.
GREGGERY: It's very difficult for you to say one way or the other?
A: I'm doing my best.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: It's very difficult for you to say one way or the other?
A: I'm doing my best.
#RobodebtRC
[CW: suicide]
GREGGERY: This was a topic which came up on several occasions?
ASTEN: With the benefit of the documents...
G: You don't recall that there were deaths related to the scheme?
A: That's not what I'm saying.
G: So can you?
A: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: This was a topic which came up on several occasions?
ASTEN: With the benefit of the documents...
G: You don't recall that there were deaths related to the scheme?
A: That's not what I'm saying.
G: So can you?
A: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: There were many instances of stories being relayed in the media of people going through a tough time. A couple of examples where it was said someone had committed suicide.
GREGGERY: How did the Minister respond?
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: How did the Minister respond?
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: He took them seriously, discussed with Secretary. He was certainly briefed on them.
GREGGERY: The Minister asked for an investigation into the suicide of Rhys Cauzzo, as to whether the Department acted appropriately? Do you recall that?
A: Vaguely.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: The Minister asked for an investigation into the suicide of Rhys Cauzzo, as to whether the Department acted appropriately? Do you recall that?
A: Vaguely.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Do you remember the topic of Mr. Cauzzo's suicide came to the Minister's attention through inquiries by The Saturday Paper? Did you give advice on how to respond to the journalist?
ASTEN: I advised against going through the details in public.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I advised against going through the details in public.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: About the suggestion of providing information to the journalist that he actually had debts, or something to that effect?
ASTEN: I think that was the intent of my advice.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I think that was the intent of my advice.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: This email is in relation to a different matter, where the Department became aware of it before the media. What was your advice to Tudge in this circumstance?
ASTEN: I called him that afternoon after receiving an update from DHS. I relayed contents to him.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I called him that afternoon after receiving an update from DHS. I relayed contents to him.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Why not just forward him the email?
ASTEN: For a matter like this, it was definitely the appropriate course to call him rather than send an email he might not attend to that day.
G: Who gave you the update?
A: Someone acting in Jonathan Hutson's role.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: For a matter like this, it was definitely the appropriate course to call him rather than send an email he might not attend to that day.
G: Who gave you the update?
A: Someone acting in Jonathan Hutson's role.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You appreciated the suggestion of a suicide was a potential media problem for the Minister?
ASTEN: It wasn't a significant factor in my mind. The Department was to provide assistance to the family by providing a social worker.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: It wasn't a significant factor in my mind. The Department was to provide assistance to the family by providing a social worker.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Was it any concern that the allegation of a debt against someone who committed suicide was accurate?
ASTEN: Any suicide in relation to a government scheme was of great concern, yes. The Minister and Secretary discussed it in depth.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Any suicide in relation to a government scheme was of great concern, yes. The Minister and Secretary discussed it in depth.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What did you ask the Department to do?
ASTEN: To be clear, I had no powers to direct them to do anything, they said they were engaging a social worker and I agreed it was a critical course of action.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: To be clear, I had no powers to direct them to do anything, they said they were engaging a social worker and I agreed it was a critical course of action.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You asked for an update from the Department on contact with the sister, was that on how likely she was to go to the media?
ASTEN: I'm confident that's not what I intended in that communication.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I'm confident that's not what I intended in that communication.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You clearly recall phoning the Minister, what did he express?
ASTEN: I don't recall---
G: Did he say 'we need an investigation on this, as usual?'
A: I recall he wanted further information. He was keen to understand more.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I don't recall---
G: Did he say 'we need an investigation on this, as usual?'
A: I recall he wanted further information. He was keen to understand more.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: The internal emails don't answer any questions on whether the allegation was accurate or not. It might indicate the deceased's sister is unlikely to go to the media, given she's satisfied she received a call. The urgency had gone out of it?
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Nothing that needed to be done in the next few hours.
GREGGERY: Or the whole weekend?
A: [silent]
G: And you don't recall it coming up again?
A: It came up at Departmental briefings later. I don't recall. No further depth to that recollection.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Or the whole weekend?
A: [silent]
G: And you don't recall it coming up again?
A: It came up at Departmental briefings later. I don't recall. No further depth to that recollection.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Do you recall feeling a sense of relief that the sister wasn't going to the media?
ASTEN: No. That was not my concern.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: No. That was not my concern.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Failings were that a vulnerability indicator was absent.
GREGGERY: Not that she had a separation certificate on file?
A: It may have come up.
G: You don't recall doing anything? Any actions?
A: I'm sure there were further steps taken, but I don't recall.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Not that she had a separation certificate on file?
A: It may have come up.
G: You don't recall doing anything? Any actions?
A: I'm sure there were further steps taken, but I don't recall.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Can't be sure that you took further steps, then, can you?
ASTEN: I'd anticipate that they were.
G: Do you recall whether the Minister suggested engaging PwC for a review?
A: Would be unusual.
G: Did anyone in the Department, to your knowledge?
A: No.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I'd anticipate that they were.
G: Do you recall whether the Minister suggested engaging PwC for a review?
A: Would be unusual.
G: Did anyone in the Department, to your knowledge?
A: No.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: There's a meeting that Mark Wood and I attended some time in April. I don't recall anyone else.
GREGGERY: You have a recollection of yourself and Wood there, and no-one else?
A: People from PwC were there, also.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You have a recollection of yourself and Wood there, and no-one else?
A: People from PwC were there, also.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Would you agree the information presented by PwC raised serious concerns about the accuracy of the allegations of the scheme?
ASTEN: Your question sounds like that was new information to us, heard from the first time when that wasn't the case.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Your question sounds like that was new information to us, heard from the first time when that wasn't the case.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Perhaps you could stick with my question, rather than talking around it?
ASTEN: Those concerns were already there.
G: What did you do with that information, re: your advice to Tudge?
A: A report to DHS, they were going to work through it and update us.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Those concerns were already there.
G: What did you do with that information, re: your advice to Tudge?
A: A report to DHS, they were going to work through it and update us.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You didn't do anything in particular?
ASTEN: It was part of the ongoing process of refining OCI.
G: And it seems you had no engagement with this, other than learning about it?
A: I don't quite understand what you're saying.
G: What did you do about it?
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: It was part of the ongoing process of refining OCI.
G: And it seems you had no engagement with this, other than learning about it?
A: I don't quite understand what you're saying.
G: What did you do about it?
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: We were participating regularly in discussions between Minister and Department around the ongoing improvements. An ongoing, dynamic process.
GREGGERY: Lots of info coming to the Minister?
A: Regularly giving guidance to DHS.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Lots of info coming to the Minister?
A: Regularly giving guidance to DHS.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What was to be done about the question of how the data was being matched? What did you do with the information provided by PwC?
ASTEN: I think you're assuming a much greater role in this scheme than what I played.
G: Why even go to the meeting?
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I think you're assuming a much greater role in this scheme than what I played.
G: Why even go to the meeting?
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: It was one input of many. DHS working through an ongoing series of requirements. I was involved in ongoing discussions.
GREGGERY: What does that mean? What happened? People talked about it, is that it?
A: I don't recall what changes were made in the OCI.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What does that mean? What happened? People talked about it, is that it?
A: I don't recall what changes were made in the OCI.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You said PwC were preparing a report, did you ever see it?
ASTEN: I don't recall receiving a report.
G: Did you ask where it was? Why not?
A: I dunno 🤷♂️
G: You're the Chief of Staff, you know PwC is providing a report, frequent meetings?!?!?
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I don't recall receiving a report.
G: Did you ask where it was? Why not?
A: I dunno 🤷♂️
G: You're the Chief of Staff, you know PwC is providing a report, frequent meetings?!?!?
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: The point of DHS engaging PwC is so it could advise the Minister on things he'd want to know about. Surely the most accurate vehicle for that information would be the final report?
ASTEN: Number of changes had already been made, report less important.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Number of changes had already been made, report less important.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Surely the final report by PwC would be the best guide to any implementation issues?
ASTEN: I don't agree wih that.
G: A report would be less helpful than a preceding iteration of their findings?
A: The report wouldn't have been authoritative or complete
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I don't agree wih that.
G: A report would be less helpful than a preceding iteration of their findings?
A: The report wouldn't have been authoritative or complete
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Why?
ASTEN: It was an outside-in perspective based on information that was somewhat dated.
G: Why do you say that? What information did you have that led you to that view?
A: The Ombudsman's report also underway...Minster was being briefed...
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: It was an outside-in perspective based on information that was somewhat dated.
G: Why do you say that? What information did you have that led you to that view?
A: The Ombudsman's report also underway...Minster was being briefed...
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You're not suggesting the Ombudsman is more relevant than PwC? You had no interest in seeing their final report?
ASTEN: I don't accept that...
G: What interest did you express in seeing the final report, then?
A: It would have come from DHS in a brief.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I don't accept that...
G: What interest did you express in seeing the final report, then?
A: It would have come from DHS in a brief.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You're saying you were interested in the report, what did you do to express your interest? One view is that the report outlined deep flaws, and you were trying to avoid them.
ASTEN: I completely reject that.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I completely reject that.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You're referred to as giving feedback from the presentation on 27 April 2017. You asked about losses from 10-11FY, updates to road map...these are the questions you asked?
ASTEN: Says so in the email, can't confirm or deny that.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: Says so in the email, can't confirm or deny that.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What do you know of the Minister's request to Secretary Campbell to engage Data61? Was that on your advice?
ASTEN: I don't think it was on my advice.
G: Did you ever see their report?
A: I don't recall receiving or seeing that report.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I don't think it was on my advice.
G: Did you ever see their report?
A: I don't recall receiving or seeing that report.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY [interrupting non-answer]: I understand you were very busy. What did you do about following up to see that report was produced?
ASTEN: The Secretary advised the Minister of the outcomes some weeks or months later, and the Minister was satisfied to move on.
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: The Secretary advised the Minister of the outcomes some weeks or months later, and the Minister was satisfied to move on.
#RobodebtRC
[We're looking at the email from Mark Wood to Tudge, advising on the outcomes of the Data61 report.]
GREGGERY: Is this the only document you saw in regards to Data61's engagement?
ASTEN: I don't recall seeing any other document.
G: And the Minister was satisfied?
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Is this the only document you saw in regards to Data61's engagement?
ASTEN: I don't recall seeing any other document.
G: And the Minister was satisfied?
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: That's assuming it was the only document the Minister saw.
GREGGERY: Any knowledge of a suggestion by DHS that there was an error in Data61's draft report?
A: I remember there was a sense there were limitations or shortcomings, don't recall what those were.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Any knowledge of a suggestion by DHS that there was an error in Data61's draft report?
A: I remember there was a sense there were limitations or shortcomings, don't recall what those were.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Is that why the Minister was satisfied with less information than the full report?
ASTEN: I'd be speculating if I said that.
[Mr. Asten is excused.]
HOLMES: Do you want to attempt Mr. Wood?
GREGGERY: Yes, I would like to attempt him.
[5 minute break]
#RobodebtRC
ASTEN: I'd be speculating if I said that.
[Mr. Asten is excused.]
HOLMES: Do you want to attempt Mr. Wood?
GREGGERY: Yes, I would like to attempt him.
[5 minute break]
#RobodebtRC
We're going the extra half-hour today.
It's around now where I start possibly regretting watching the final of the Women's Cricket World Cup until 3am. Not really, though.
Mark Wood is affirmed to take us to close. He's currently senior adviser to Peter Dutton.
#RobodebtRC
It's around now where I start possibly regretting watching the final of the Women's Cricket World Cup until 3am. Not really, though.
Mark Wood is affirmed to take us to close. He's currently senior adviser to Peter Dutton.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: In your role advising Minister Tudge, when did you become aware of the Robodebt scheme?
WOOD: Late November 2016.
G: And in late December you became aware of media criticism?
W: Yes.
G: You met with Minister Porter during December?
W: Just before Xmas.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: Late November 2016.
G: And in late December you became aware of media criticism?
W: Yes.
G: You met with Minister Porter during December?
W: Just before Xmas.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Meetings in this time led to Minister Porter appearing on Radio National, 7:30 Report and giving interviews?
WOOD: Yes.
G: What do you recall of the nature of Porter's requests?
W: High-level overview of program, and the criticism.
#robodebtRC
WOOD: Yes.
G: What do you recall of the nature of Porter's requests?
W: High-level overview of program, and the criticism.
#robodebtRC
GREGGERY: How did you seek this information?
WOOD: Going to DHS verbally and conveying between them and Minister. Golightly, Musolino, Hutson
G: Any information on legal criticisms?
W: No. It didn't occur to me to ask that question.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: Going to DHS verbally and conveying between them and Minister. Golightly, Musolino, Hutson
G: Any information on legal criticisms?
W: No. It didn't occur to me to ask that question.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Do you recall the 7:30 Report featured a criticism of the lawfulness from a representative of @VicLegalAid?
WOOD: At the time, no, but I've seen that in reviewing documents for today.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: At the time, no, but I've seen that in reviewing documents for today.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Email to Golightly referring to request for background information from the Minister's office, does that mean you?
WOOD: Can't be certain. The media team would be involved with discussions with the media and what was therefore required from the Department.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: Can't be certain. The media team would be involved with discussions with the media and what was therefore required from the Department.
#RobodebtRC
[Email from Sarah Curnow advising the Minister about what Dan Nicholson from Vic LegalAid is going to be talking about on the program. Media advisers from Tudge and Porter's office copied in.]
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Were you were involved in the telephone call briefing Porter before the 7:30 appearance?
WOOD: I don't recall that, no.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: I don't recall that, no.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Peter Martin's article in the SMH prompt any reflections on the legal underpinnings of the scheme?
WOOD: It did not.
HOLMES: The advice from 7:30 encapsulates very neatly what the legal question was...nobody ever wanted it answered?
W: Doesn't appear so.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: It did not.
HOLMES: The advice from 7:30 encapsulates very neatly what the legal question was...nobody ever wanted it answered?
W: Doesn't appear so.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Were you interested in knowing the answer?
WOOD: I hadn't turned my mind to asking that specific question, no. With the benefit of hindsight I would have been more specific about the legal detail.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: I hadn't turned my mind to asking that specific question, no. With the benefit of hindsight I would have been more specific about the legal detail.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You're saying you weren't copied into any information which answered that question to prepare him for his interview?
WOOD: It was mostly a media process. If he needed a more in-depth answer I'd have sought that information out.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: It was mostly a media process. If he needed a more in-depth answer I'd have sought that information out.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What did yo understand of how the ATO data was used?
WOOD: That it would be applied in the absence of other information.
G: That was apt to produce an inaccurate calculation?
W: As it was recorded, yes.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: That it would be applied in the absence of other information.
G: That was apt to produce an inaccurate calculation?
W: As it was recorded, yes.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: I had conversations with people in the Department, was made clear to me it was a long-standing practice. Rightly or wrongly, I did not dig any further than that.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What did you do to address your concerns that inaccurate debts were being raised?
WOOD: DHS normally stops compliance activity over Christmas so there was time to start the process of fixes.
[I'm not sure they did last year, in 2022.]
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: DHS normally stops compliance activity over Christmas so there was time to start the process of fixes.
[I'm not sure they did last year, in 2022.]
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: Do you recall a staffer of another Parlimentarian raising, with Rachelle Miller at any rate, that she'd received a debt based on income she'd received as a student?
WOOD: No I don't, Commissioner.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: No I don't, Commissioner.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Recall correspondence and engagement with @ACOSS?
WOOD: Minister was on leave. Usual process to a letter like this was for the Department to prepare a response for the Minster, who would sign off and send it out.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: Minister was on leave. Usual process to a letter like this was for the Department to prepare a response for the Minster, who would sign off and send it out.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: It's unambiguous in their letter than data matching is producing inaccurate debts and causing anxiety amongst recipients. Did you give the Minister any advice?
WOOD: I don't recall, other than the response provided by DHS.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: I don't recall, other than the response provided by DHS.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Was the Minister ever interested in pausing the program, to permit stakeholder roundtable to proceed?
WOOD: I don't recall him expressing that, no.
G: You never advised him to pause the program?
W: It was already paused over Christmas.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: I don't recall him expressing that, no.
G: You never advised him to pause the program?
W: It was already paused over Christmas.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: We wanted to make sure that when it did kick off again that it was as good as it could've been.
GREGGERY: Rather than accept the premise that the onus of proof was reversed, the Department simply said it had always been that way?
W: Correct.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Rather than accept the premise that the onus of proof was reversed, the Department simply said it had always been that way?
W: Correct.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: How did you reconcile this peak body's complaint with DHS' claim?
WOOD: I took on good faith, at face value, that the Department were professionals and experts.
G: Did no-one take ACOSS' complaints at face value?
W: It seems not.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: I took on good faith, at face value, that the Department were professionals and experts.
G: Did no-one take ACOSS' complaints at face value?
W: It seems not.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Was there any point where you thought the Minister was considering pausing the scheme to deal with these fundamental concerns about accuracy and legality?
WOOD: Not that I recall, no.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: Not that I recall, no.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Recall attending the meeting with PwC with Mr. Asten and others on 19 April 2017?
WOOD: No. I don't recall that at all.
G: Recall DHS engaging PwC? In particular? Data61?
W: Yes I do.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: No. I don't recall that at all.
G: Recall DHS engaging PwC? In particular? Data61?
W: Yes I do.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What of Data61's engagement?
WOOD: They wanted some data analytics...
G: Do you recall following up on the Minister's request to DHS to get Data61 involved?
W: Not at the time, but recall seeking some high-level information about it at some point.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: They wanted some data analytics...
G: Do you recall following up on the Minister's request to DHS to get Data61 involved?
W: Not at the time, but recall seeking some high-level information about it at some point.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: The email summary doesn't tell you very much, though?
WOOD: It's very scant.
G: Did you advise the Minister to get a copy of the full report?
W: It's highly probable the final report would be provided to the Minister.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: It's very scant.
G: Did you advise the Minister to get a copy of the full report?
W: It's highly probable the final report would be provided to the Minister.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What do you recall of PwC's involvement?
WOOD: Minister seeking lots of people to do reviews, DHS also seeking them, to help us understand where improvements could be made, PwC were one of them.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: Minister seeking lots of people to do reviews, DHS also seeking them, to help us understand where improvements could be made, PwC were one of them.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You're listed as a required attendee, do you recall attending the 19 April 2017 meeting in Canberra, at the PwC offices?
WOOD: No.
G: Recall any meetings with them?
W: No.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: No.
G: Recall any meetings with them?
W: No.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Do you recall seeing any documents produced by PwC?
WOOD: No.
G: Do you have any awareness they were working on a report?
W: Yes.
G: Do you recall being told it was near completion, or see the final report?
W: No.
G: Recall asking for it?
W: No.
#RobodebtRC
WOOD: No.
G: Do you have any awareness they were working on a report?
W: Yes.
G: Do you recall being told it was near completion, or see the final report?
W: No.
G: Recall asking for it?
W: No.
#RobodebtRC
Well, with that, they've seemingly got all they can out of Mark Wood.
No-one else has any questions for him.
He's excused.
The Royal Commission is adjourned until 10am tomorrow.
#RobodebtRC
No-one else has any questions for him.
He's excused.
The Royal Commission is adjourned until 10am tomorrow.
#RobodebtRC
My brain hurts.
That was a particularly frustrating series of failures to remember anything about anything, by basically everyone.
About 70% of it was that old chestnut of conveniently-detailed hypotheses about events no-one can remember.
#RobodebtRC
That was a particularly frustrating series of failures to remember anything about anything, by basically everyone.
About 70% of it was that old chestnut of conveniently-detailed hypotheses about events no-one can remember.
#RobodebtRC
Commissioner Holmes made some all-time faces at witnesses. That is the one silver lining. Greggery was really mad at Asten for showing up unprepared.
He reminded me of my high school maths teachers after I'd shown up for a test without studying, for the 300th time.
#RobodebtRC
He reminded me of my high school maths teachers after I'd shown up for a test without studying, for the 300th time.
#RobodebtRC
There are only two witnesses scheduled for tomorrow, which I hope will make proceedings somewhat less dizzying.
1000AEST/1100AEDT/1200AWST start as usual.
#RobodebtRC
1000AEST/1100AEDT/1200AWST start as usual.
#RobodebtRC
Thanks for joining me today, and for your magnificent support and engagement.
Thank you to @SquigglyRick for being here to bear witness to my various quips.
P.S. No promises, but keep an eye on ABC Sydney and Melbourne tonight...
#RobodebtRC
gofundme.com/f/robodebt-roy…
Thank you to @SquigglyRick for being here to bear witness to my various quips.
P.S. No promises, but keep an eye on ABC Sydney and Melbourne tonight...
#RobodebtRC
gofundme.com/f/robodebt-roy…
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