Carnosaur thread - Bite Smarter, Not Harder
To quickly clarify, Carnosauria is a group whose members are in a bit of flux. There is ongoing debate on if some like spinosaurs count as being included, so I'm going to just focus on Allosauroids as everyone agrees they're carnosaurs
To quickly clarify, Carnosauria is a group whose members are in a bit of flux. There is ongoing debate on if some like spinosaurs count as being included, so I'm going to just focus on Allosauroids as everyone agrees they're carnosaurs
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Carnosaur is a 1993 mockbuster horror film extremely loosely based on an actually decent 1984 novel by John Brosnan, in which the film threw out the ahead-of-their-time bird-like dinosaurs and starred only low budget versions of coelurosaurs, Deinonychus and Tyrannosaurus-
Carnosaur is a 1993 mockbuster horror film extremely loosely based on an actually decent 1984 novel by John Brosnan, in which the film threw out the ahead-of-their-time bird-like dinosaurs and starred only low budget versions of coelurosaurs, Deinonychus and Tyrannosaurus-
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Jokes aside, Carnosaurs 'were' the archetypical carnivorous dinosaurs for a long time. Almost every pre-1990s meat-eating dinosaur was considered a Carnosaur at one point or another. More fossils & better research has since then sectioned off a lot of former-carnosaurs into-
Jokes aside, Carnosaurs 'were' the archetypical carnivorous dinosaurs for a long time. Almost every pre-1990s meat-eating dinosaur was considered a Carnosaur at one point or another. More fossils & better research has since then sectioned off a lot of former-carnosaurs into-
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-their own groups. Nowadays a majority of the iconic carnivores are either Coelurosaurs ("Bird-line", tyrannosaurs, raptors, etc.) or Ceratosaurs ("horned-carnivores" like Carnotaurus). Carnosaurs as a group is chiefly comprised of three major groups who share a lot of traits.
-their own groups. Nowadays a majority of the iconic carnivores are either Coelurosaurs ("Bird-line", tyrannosaurs, raptors, etc.) or Ceratosaurs ("horned-carnivores" like Carnotaurus). Carnosaurs as a group is chiefly comprised of three major groups who share a lot of traits.
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Allosaurus and its Jurassic period relation, and the chiefly Cretaceous Noevenators and Carcharodontosaurs, along with smaller groups. And they have really fallen from grace in the limelight since the 1990s. And the single biggest cause is... frankly T.rex.
Allosaurus and its Jurassic period relation, and the chiefly Cretaceous Noevenators and Carcharodontosaurs, along with smaller groups. And they have really fallen from grace in the limelight since the 1990s. And the single biggest cause is... frankly T.rex.
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For his many, many faults as a man, Dr. Henry Osborn did at least give Tyrannosaurus rex an appropriately cinematic name. And there is much to admire. This isn't going to be a dis on T.rex, but using it as a benchmark to compare to Carnosaurs is very unfair to both.
For his many, many faults as a man, Dr. Henry Osborn did at least give Tyrannosaurus rex an appropriately cinematic name. And there is much to admire. This isn't going to be a dis on T.rex, but using it as a benchmark to compare to Carnosaurs is very unfair to both.
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There is NO.SUCH.THING. as an 'ultimate predator'. T.rex being the last of the giant theropods wasn't making it the apex of an ever-increasing line of greatness. It was simply another predator well adapted to its circumstances and time. The sad part is even professionals-
There is NO.SUCH.THING. as an 'ultimate predator'. T.rex being the last of the giant theropods wasn't making it the apex of an ever-increasing line of greatness. It was simply another predator well adapted to its circumstances and time. The sad part is even professionals-
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Often tend to default to comparing every other big theropod to it. Which is a better hunter, a tiger or an saltwater crocodile? Answer is, are we going after buffalo on land, or in the water? Predators are not subject to upgrades, just circumstance.
Often tend to default to comparing every other big theropod to it. Which is a better hunter, a tiger or an saltwater crocodile? Answer is, are we going after buffalo on land, or in the water? Predators are not subject to upgrades, just circumstance.
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So let's talk one big comparison I see thrown around constantly. Bite force. I see charts thrown around like this all the time. Now stop and think for a moment... What are the odds, that an almost 2,000kg Allosaurus has a bite 1/2 that of a 70kg raptor? Look at their heads now
So let's talk one big comparison I see thrown around constantly. Bite force. I see charts thrown around like this all the time. Now stop and think for a moment... What are the odds, that an almost 2,000kg Allosaurus has a bite 1/2 that of a 70kg raptor? Look at their heads now
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There was a study in the early 2000s which used bad data and models, concluding a 2000kg Allosaurus had a bite force roughly equal to a 70kg leopard, about 800 newtons. Technology wasn't as good back then, and understanding of soft tissue muscular was primitive.
There was a study in the early 2000s which used bad data and models, concluding a 2000kg Allosaurus had a bite force roughly equal to a 70kg leopard, about 800 newtons. Technology wasn't as good back then, and understanding of soft tissue muscular was primitive.
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This lead to notions still to this day that Carnosaurs had a wimpy bite and were perhaps even primarily scavengers. Despite evidence they were capable of hunting, with bites prey bones ranging from spots that make no sense to scavenge (Stego plate), to vital areas like necks
This lead to notions still to this day that Carnosaurs had a wimpy bite and were perhaps even primarily scavengers. Despite evidence they were capable of hunting, with bites prey bones ranging from spots that make no sense to scavenge (Stego plate), to vital areas like necks
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More modern reconstructions using better models and cross referenced data shows Carnosaur jaws were quite powerful. White shows biting force, gray shows jaw velocity to close, when the jaws are scaled to the same size. A scaled Allosaurus could bite almost as hard as T.rex.
More modern reconstructions using better models and cross referenced data shows Carnosaur jaws were quite powerful. White shows biting force, gray shows jaw velocity to close, when the jaws are scaled to the same size. A scaled Allosaurus could bite almost as hard as T.rex.
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When at its appropriate size, Allosaurus could bite with ~8,000 Newtons of force, about what is expected for an theropod of its size. T.rex does have a stronger bite due to adaptations and size, but Carnosaurs were nothing to sneeze at. Especially if they bite differently.
When at its appropriate size, Allosaurus could bite with ~8,000 Newtons of force, about what is expected for an theropod of its size. T.rex does have a stronger bite due to adaptations and size, but Carnosaurs were nothing to sneeze at. Especially if they bite differently.
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Other recent works showed Allosaurus could open its mouth wider than Tyrannosaurus. The two had near identical optimal gapes, but the maximum differed. Jaw strength directly scales inversely with jaw gape. Carnosaur jaws had traded some strength for opening wider. Why?
Other recent works showed Allosaurus could open its mouth wider than Tyrannosaurus. The two had near identical optimal gapes, but the maximum differed. Jaw strength directly scales inversely with jaw gape. Carnosaur jaws had traded some strength for opening wider. Why?
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Because just like T.rex, carnosaurs were subject to their prey available. Tyrannosaurus rex lived in an ecosystem where it was on par in size with the large herbivore it might encounter. It didn't need to carve through a much of muscle on something big, it had to clamp down-
Because just like T.rex, carnosaurs were subject to their prey available. Tyrannosaurus rex lived in an ecosystem where it was on par in size with the large herbivore it might encounter. It didn't need to carve through a much of muscle on something big, it had to clamp down-
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and hang on tight to the throat of something to crush it. Not entirely unlike the method modern panthers use. And both achieve this with largely blunt, rounded, stout teeth that can take a lot of force and penetrate; but not shred as easily.
and hang on tight to the throat of something to crush it. Not entirely unlike the method modern panthers use. And both achieve this with largely blunt, rounded, stout teeth that can take a lot of force and penetrate; but not shred as easily.
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Carnosaurs were often outsized by the resident largest herbivores by a wide margin. Even though they'd chiefly hunt the juveniles of such giants, more often than not they'd be trying to bite into things that are very wide, very muscular, & they need to get through that tissue
Carnosaurs were often outsized by the resident largest herbivores by a wide margin. Even though they'd chiefly hunt the juveniles of such giants, more often than not they'd be trying to bite into things that are very wide, very muscular, & they need to get through that tissue
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Their teeth were thinner to stab in easier but emit less force, and heavily serrated to cause a lot of tissue damage; similar to how komodo dragons hunt.. Which I'm not showing because of content. It's very messy. These teeth can't clamp or grapple, they instead shred.
Their teeth were thinner to stab in easier but emit less force, and heavily serrated to cause a lot of tissue damage; similar to how komodo dragons hunt.. Which I'm not showing because of content. It's very messy. These teeth can't clamp or grapple, they instead shred.
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And if you're trying to carve through a lot of muscle and potentially biting something very wide like prey bigger than you are past a certain point, the bite & clamp method isn't as effective. Just like the shredding bite isn't effective on other game.
And if you're trying to carve through a lot of muscle and potentially biting something very wide like prey bigger than you are past a certain point, the bite & clamp method isn't as effective. Just like the shredding bite isn't effective on other game.
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Arm bones of carnosaurs often show stress fractures and healed tension injuries. They were also quite powerful, with stout claws to hook and hang on. Quite useful against thrashing prey, large or small. Later carnosaurs like the Carcharodontosaurs did it a bit differently.
Arm bones of carnosaurs often show stress fractures and healed tension injuries. They were also quite powerful, with stout claws to hook and hang on. Quite useful against thrashing prey, large or small. Later carnosaurs like the Carcharodontosaurs did it a bit differently.
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Carchs like Giganotosaurus here had skulls especially good at withstanding a lot of tension stress, and extremely muscular backs with raised dorsums. They'd make contact with their jaws, bite and yank to shred, and land follow-up bites.
Carchs like Giganotosaurus here had skulls especially good at withstanding a lot of tension stress, and extremely muscular backs with raised dorsums. They'd make contact with their jaws, bite and yank to shred, and land follow-up bites.
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Did they have a weaker clamping force than T.rex? Absolutely. But they lived and hunted very differently. A Tyrannosaurus in the Morrison Formation would have as bad of a time as a Saurophaganax would in the Hell Creek Formation. They could manage, but it wouldn't be optimal
Did they have a weaker clamping force than T.rex? Absolutely. But they lived and hunted very differently. A Tyrannosaurus in the Morrison Formation would have as bad of a time as a Saurophaganax would in the Hell Creek Formation. They could manage, but it wouldn't be optimal
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Each animal is a product of its times and places. We don't need to speculate on bizarre hunting methods like hatchet-swinging-bites (Damnit Fry, its 2023!) or keep using one unrelated species as a point of comparison for a whole family.
Each animal is a product of its times and places. We don't need to speculate on bizarre hunting methods like hatchet-swinging-bites (Damnit Fry, its 2023!) or keep using one unrelated species as a point of comparison for a whole family.
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Carnosaurs were a successful group of apex predators for nearly 100 million years, over half of the entire Mesozoic era. It was their demise in the Mid-Cretaceous that gave the Tyrannosaurs in Asia & North America their chance to step up to bat. Succession, not overthrow.
Carnosaurs were a successful group of apex predators for nearly 100 million years, over half of the entire Mesozoic era. It was their demise in the Mid-Cretaceous that gave the Tyrannosaurs in Asia & North America their chance to step up to bat. Succession, not overthrow.
25- It is perhaps telling that some of the first big tyrannosaurs, arising in ecosystems not unlike those of carnosaurs, were virtually feathery expys of the latter. This body type was clearly quite successful in a lot of circumstances, just not T.rex's.
Addendum-
Some of my wording was a little bit too harsh on earlier researchers. It's inevitable as technology gets better and investigative methods more intricate, certain old models are just going to be found to have had flaws.
Some of my wording was a little bit too harsh on earlier researchers. It's inevitable as technology gets better and investigative methods more intricate, certain old models are just going to be found to have had flaws.
My intention was to highlight how some of these older models still persist in the verbal zeitgeist within some facets of paleontology and media. Not to shame researchers who put in the hard work but were just limited by their technology.
There have been some inaccuracies and paleontology that were just the result of apathy or laziness on jumping to assumptions rather than actually researching. "Leopard jaw Allosaurus" was not one of them. It's just unfortunate that whereas misconceptions like-
Raptors being scaly or Tyrannosaurus being a scavenger get clarified pretty quickly in both the professional and amateur side of dinosaur appreciation, carnosaurs have not had a good track record. I still see that "Carnos have a weak bite"
-thrown around a lot in both discussions, and even some papers with questionable research (*cough* "Apex Scavengers"). The point wasn't supposed to be that certain things were outdated, but rather the rectification hadn't really disseminated.
Thanks to @drmambobob for the hindsight.
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