Thread by @DarrenODonovan

#RobodebtRC Block 4 Day 12. “At some points it was going to cost us more to act on that information…The cost of doing that has now decreased." Those were Kathryn Campbell’s first public words about robodebt on June 2 2015. Today we will get her final ones.

The quick insertion of Barry Jackson into the witness list suggests we will be testing the post Xmas 2017 handover. Everything had been spooling up for AGS legal advice, then in true APS form… a printed email, an absence of recollection, and…nothing. #RobodebtRC

Across four years we find sprawling inconsistencies, missing paper, rampant callous indifference. But one absolute iron clad consistency:

Don’t trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.

Ms Campbell’s been described as trouble. She gets her right of reply today.
#RobodebtRC

While Secretary Leon turned the coded references into full frontal attack, that isn’t the focus. There’s an amount of closure to be had across the timeline. for instance while Minister Payne accepts she likely read the 2015 NPP, Campbell hasn’t remarkably #RobodebtRC

Worth incorporating this into #RobodebtRC thread. The positioning of 'culture' as cure all, fails to recognise the environment set by law and sanction. The current climate ensures the balance of professional risk lies against transparency.

https://twitter.com/foiguru/status/1632867974809006080?s=20

For public lawyers, tomorrow and the Ombudsman will be unlike anything ever seen before. I want to pre-emptively underline that Ms McLeod will be appearing as proper officer. That's an institutional role, it's not about leaping at her. Who knows what we will hear. #RobodebtRC

Ms McLeod spotted the executive minute. She wrote an outline that DHS stayed up to 3 am to slam
There's a sign her superiors had a conception of the ombudsman as playing an 'audit office' role. Whatever that means. We will find out. I recommend an apology to start. #RobodebtRC

Tomorrow might also raise some awkwards truths that go beyond the Ombudsman. Most focus on robodebt was as a technology programme. Imposing an 'automation', IT glitch frame on the thing, tended to see coverage pivot to, well, academic concerns. Part of the ecosystem #RobodebtRC

The presence of academics, with our tendency towards to middle of road, qualified, system respecting takes, was not always positive. The law also crowded out the ethics. I'm not unreflective on the lessons learned here, as I start to look at the future. #robodebtRC

We are starting with Barry Jackson who sat in as Secretary during the 'time of lower tempo' turn of the year 2016-2017 #robodebtRC

This is just a two week exposure for Jackson. But it is super clear, the legal exploration was underway from his inbox. So surely there was a warm hot potato handover to Secretary Campbell? Any handover is why he is here #robodebtRC

Jackson telling us that every meeting he ever attended on robodebt was full of ...
"This is how we've always done this"
Harfield-Golightly
Jackson said he perceived it as a red flag. So he asked for the 'lego' #robodebtRC

Whether he was acting or not, the Secretary for legal purposes has sought advice here.
Where did it go?
Was there a handover...
Yes...a verbal one. Great. "covered a range of issues"
#RobodebtRC

"Not an extensive handover"
A short summary of fact that meetings with the Ministers had occured.
And crucially, Barry says he told he "had raised the basis for the averaging"
As the Wiggles sing
hot potato, hot potato, hot potato
potato... potato... potato...
#robodebtRC

That small moment, is a rare firsthand, direct line of sight on legally tinged stuff for Ms Campbell, as she sets out on her record breaking third day at #RobodebtRC

Good email flashed up for a second there, with all the major players copied in, Sunday 8th January, debating @1petermartin again. #robodebtRc

Ms Campbell's representative now taking up his chance. A measure of the significance of Jackson's statement, underlining the reach for a recollection of an oral conversation from 6 years ago #robodebtRC

Mr Flynn hammering in for his client. Secures concession Jackson doesn't know if handover happened by phone or in person.
"I suggest that you don't have any firm recollection of that handover"
Jackson rejects that.
Flynn: you've no notes of the handover
J: No #robodebtRC

Jackson is giving as good as he is getting here broadly. He has arc-ed up and defended himself
Saying he recalls asking Golightly for legals verbally before he read any emails.
#RobodebtRC

1st hardcore re-examination of a witness by briefed counsel for the entire Commission. Counsel puts it that he was working towards language inan email, in the statement.
"A reconstruction of what you think you said...and not an actual recollection:
Jackson: rejects #robodebtRC

Counsel suggest he reverse engineered his account.
"why not forward your email?" on handover
"I think that is a hypothetical question", nice put down,
Counsel reloads with "it would have been easy to do so"
Jackson: long email chain with 45 media articles
#RobodebtRC

Accepts it would have been better to forward the email (no doubt Barry, look at what's going down)
Rejects idea not forwarding showed he didn't think it was a big issue.
That was Barry Jackson, who stood his ground there, whatever you think
#RobodebtRC

Let's see how Ms Campbell goes. The last appearance is the "the Day of Suggestions". Those familiar with her, know that she does not like responding to stuff she doesn't agree with. #RobodebtRC

Greggery's going chronological order, starting with earliest Dec 2014 meeting, going to rove across the timeline.
The witness list gave off a 'we are busy, almost done, but for you, Ms Campbell, we have all day" vibe.
It's going to be a long day. #RobodebtRC

Campbell's mood can be judged by watching for reactions like s-l-o-w-i-n-g her words (down),
The tone drop, in my experience, marks the point she's actively angry. Greggery got to her with the Annual report last time. #RobodebtRC

https://twitter.com/DarrenODonovan/status/1600355796784934912?s=20

Greggery is back in block 1 mode, amidst the drafts of the fateful Executive Minute.
Notes DHS try to soft-soap the 1st draft. DSS come back on 'em, gets firmed up.
It was a row at that point, the Exec Minute showed it. you could even guess it off the Ombo report. #robodebtRC

Interesting Greggery puts Morrison's January 22nd interview with Richo right into the bureaucratic timeline. This is the 'pursuit of vibe' thesis. Golightly was right on, and sent a link direct to the Secretary super fast. #RobodebtRC

"the interview referred to a crackdown on welfare". Now to the Canberra Times, which noted the 'strong change in tone' to "Strong Welfare Cop"
Very interesting how the bureaucrats fed the vibe to each other almost instantly.
#robodebtRC

Greggery: "indicated the direction Morrison wanted to go in the portfolio?"
Campbell: Yes
Greggery: provided context for your compliance chat
Campbell: No. [that would have been a lot to cop to]
#RobodebtRC

Fascinating stuff here, where Greggery is exploring the pursuit of the 'welfare cop' crackdown vibe in the wording of the compliance brief #RobodebtRC

Campbell is extremely shut down this morning, this is not the campbell of block 1 so far

Haha, it's a Greggery animus.
She volunteers more to the Commissioner, but not the voluble substantive answers I've grown so accustomed to. #robodebtRC
"yes I have that document...". in near monotone.

Ms Marsh is furiously sticky noting the paper trail here. It's what keeps Greggery looking so polished.
In his most lovely floral tie and purple shirt today I see.. #robodebtRC

Sorry for the break in coverage, had my annual performance goal/review meeting. Let's park the resulting 'oh my god, I'm so behind at work'.

I see Greggery is hammering into the 2015 NPP docs, to get her on the record, with her final take. Tension.
#RobodebtRC

The questions are all circling the obvious:
how could you, as Secretary not dive right into the details of this flagship budget measure, that you built [and wrecked] your career off?
How can you say you knew so little etc #robodebtRC

Tension remains palpable. I've never see her like this in all her appearances #robodebtRc

It has been her testimony that she never circled back on went down on DHS-DSS interactions, where the NPP comes flying out with no legislation needed, in days, in days. She's sticking to it.
#RobodebtRC

Greggery still probing the interactions with the NPP. Because, she's seen the Minute, she has knowledge at that point. If he can put her in front of an NPP draft, he'll swoop down with a:
'how could you not ask'
over and over #RobodebtRC

"This is not an email to which you are a party"
We saw in earlier blocks that there is no headshot email where the NPP is sent to her for her take or one bearing her mark up. Greggery's pressing the context to ask: surely you had input or got an explanation #RobodebtRC

"Does this email assist you to recall, when it was you discussed with Ms Golightly, her interaction with Ms Wilson"
No.
Moves to 15 January 2015, which is not what Greggery is seeking. He wants post 20 February stuff
#RobodebtRC

Punting. Responsibility to deliver a resolved NPP was the responsibility of Golightly and Wilson. She will likely hold to that.
Greggery circling eagle like for the moment she learns 'legislation not needed'. #RobodebtRC

To repurpose one quote we had during this #robodebtRC "I have no skin in the game". If it turns out she just shunted it all to dep secretaries, it says a lot about the model of leadership. Make it happen, hell or high water etc. So hands on pre exec minute though

Greggery arrives at the 'hand of God' moment for this NPP.
Where Ryman (who definitely was not god here) is directed by someone to insert the fateful 'no change to calculation' fig leaf sentence. #robodebtRC

"are you saying taht you took no further interest in the drafting of the NPP post [Min Morrison's signed minute]"
Yes
Relied entirely on Ms Golightly?
Yes.
Consistent with last block.
#robodebtRC

Says she never asked what changed at any point
"Because I did not notice it at that time"
Greggery points to being so hands on pre exec minute, why the sudden cut off in being hands on.
#RobodebtRC

According to her, the first time she asked about how legislation needed became 'not needed' was 2017
And then she got the Ombudsman report line. The 'DSS were comfortable' line. #RobodebtRC

Line here is 'if the recipient engaged' there was no change. My focus was engagement.

Don't forget all numbers, all costings indicated that at 300,000 averages were coming no matter what the outreach #RobodebtRC

I think anyone watching this can see today's witness has carried some emotion, whatever it is, into the room.
Off drafts of the 2015 NPP, repeating past evidence of non involvement is not what's generating it.
I think...it's later stuff, and Ms Leon #RobodebtRC

She is entitled to be heard on what has been said about her. To be fair, some people (Ms Collins) did not go with the 'she was initimidating' flow. And Ms Leon heaved her views onto the record at length. We will surely get to Ms Campbell's response. #RobodebtRC

For reference here is Ms Campbell’s personal model of policy development she delivered to the IPAA in 2018. Chunks of it absent or just waived for this 2015 NPP on her account #RobodebtRC

Campbell accepts corporate responsibility for the actions of Ms Golightly. I like to call that "copping a Pratt" after her secretarial colleague #RobodebtRC

Greggery is doing 2015 documents one by one up to March 3, Payne's tick is before 7/8 March, costing phase after. Registering the moments where the change was not registered, questioned or followed up.
"Not clear to me that I saw this email on the 3rd of March"
#RobodebtRC

"Did you notice at that time the change in position from the earlier Minutes.."
No.
This is repetitive. Has to be done. Like the Minister settles the terms of the draft NPP on her account, but the secretary isn't on the scene. (Payne said she assumed all was well) #RobodebtRC

Campbell says she never provided any direct personal assurance to Minister Payne
When asked about colleagues says 'not to my knowledge'
#robodebtRC

Greggery is going day by day, through the materials to which she is not a party, but which are the context. Greggery now testingTurnbull's outright randomness from yesterday!
Campbell rightly says AGS assesses expenditure authority/Williams, nothing more.
#robodebtRC

Greggery gives her a bit of a PGPA financial due dilligence reminder. Just to set a baseline set of responsibility here #RobodebtRC
"what steps did you take...."
Classic Greggery there, the phrase that launched the mugs. Always take steps folks

"You could have taken other steps...projected expenditure of $200m?"
There were loads of NPPs is her defence.

Campbell's tone suggests she thinks Mr Greggery has no idea how things work in reality. #robodebtRC

I think it is important to out that attitude because when academics, the public, or lawyers start probing responsibility to norms, too many in APS smash out a
"you have no idea son, who are you?"
See Mr Pratt, all of. #RobodebtRC

Costings means Greggery has to attack any idea that it was 'too late' or 'finances only' phase. The numbers reflect the averaging, and indeed they yank cases out of interim manual into automation. Could only be done with averaging #RobodebtRC

Secretary Campbell said she never learned of the levels of non response in the pilot. We were up to over 90% averaging in interim manual when it all got done. #RobodebtRC

We have arrived at the first physical document that hits her inbox. It is a relatively bare costing document, not an NPP. She tells us, she probably read one page, and was numbers focused. (predictable) #RobodebtRC

10 March email copying her into the need to stand up exposure draft NPPs. Just copying her in. Shows Payne settling the NPP. #RobodebtRC
"I don't know what happened in Ms Payne's office"

It's an inquiry, it's not adversarial. Mr Greggery is just after facts. But in another context I wonder if Greggery would stop and ask "you don't think my questions are relevant do you?" Just to out the attitude underpinning the one word responses #RobodebtRC

Lol, Ryman writing to Britton saying the RPAT risk assessment is low. Like not alone did they pay no respect to Mr Whitecross on the law, they like danced all over the policy advice too #RobodebtRC

but we knew that from Justin's risk management plan for this thing.
"this risk: is an opportunity" etc etc
#RobodebtRC

Lol Greggery has an email indicating the number of NPPs being drafting at a point in March. 4.
"The fact that you had 4 [for drafting] meant you would have played close attention to the new policy proposal"
good areas, good areas. #RobodebtRC

March 11 email
"A hard copy was provided to your office at 6pm"
Campbell: "I see those words"

Telling non-response.
"I had not noticed the change"
#RobodebtRC

Now at the 'briefing notes" for ERC stage. Lower downs, are preparing a brief to support the secretary and Minister
We know the likely answer
"I had not noticed the change"
Greggery is sewing a 'this is for cabinet', you are a Secretary vibe.

Obviously she is copied into the PBS exposure draft version.
"Did you notice on that date...that there had been a change"

All together now:
No.
#RobodebtRC

No recollection or record of the briefing in preparation for ERC.
The blank calendar invite
didn't make @GlenLeLievre 's great AFR cartoon, but is a regular terminus for this bus route #RobodebtRC

Given the volume of documentation Greggery has to put to Campbell, Ms Marsh is playing a blinder here to keep Greggery flowing.
If there were detail people like her in these meetings, we wouldn't be here. #RobodebtRC

Another couple of intense stick notes from the junior there if people noticed.

Greggery floating like a Swan with a floral tie, gently floating on a discovery of (what were we up to?) 600,000 random Commonwealth documents
#RobodebtRC

Greggery just noting that as a secretary, her Minister had been co-opted to speak to the specific NPP.

How in that context do you not interact with this thing etc.

All this stuff is like PMC vault. Only Commissioner Holmes can get stuff from Ms McGregor(FOI joke) #RobodebtRC

Campbell having a "don't assume" moment here over whether she was in ERC when the NPP gets ticked. Marking territory, fits the 'this isn't your world' vibe I noted earlier. #robodebtRC

Greggery says he has her briefing for ERC. Campbell notes she can't confirm that because she asked for it from Services Australia and didn't get it (process thing)
It's effectively the NPP/exec minute

But with 1 change, the sentence. Did you notice it?
Drumroll..
#robodebtRC

Drummers getting a bit tired, because they're duelling over the fact averaging was built in...

I mean what. Commissioner intervenes
#RobodebtRC

There was no reduction in staff number. Campbell is correct, but whatever.
Greggery: but it reduced the staff:debt ratio.
Yes, can we move on now.
#RobodebtRC

"There was an increase, I'm not sure I would call it exponential"
20,000 to 866,000
Not exponential #RobodebtRC

"this measure was not about decreasing staff."
I agree with that for what its worth
But Greggery draws her back to the point: it reduced staff involvement. Like for each debt, fewer staff. Basic like. 10 mins we're not getting back.
#RobodebtRC

greggery: submission is misleading about the changes
Campbell: It was only correct if people did not engage

DOD: If people engage you have no staff to answer the phones or process on these numbers, Ms Campbell
#RobodebtRC

Commissioner notes averaging was all over interim manual (2015-2016)

I'm a broken record on this, the averaging was highest in interim manual, look at the class action quashing. All those debts before the media outcry #RobodebtRC

This we wanted people to engage is garbage.
It:
wasn't in the staff
wasn't in the budget assumptions
wasn't in the data on the decisions they made
#RobodebtRC

Lol, Ms Hogan Doran mounting a characteristically on point defence of the eternal interests of the Commonwealth. The public interest immunity ruling doesn't reach as far as comments at the cabinet table. The precise Mr Greggery needs to be more precise #RobodebtRC

Do you agree it was misleading
"I agree it was change to the extent people did not engage yes"
Commissioner: it was a change for everyone who didn't get information gathering as there was pre 2015
Campbell: dodges
Holmes pounces #robodebtRC

Gets the key "yes" to the full extent of the change. Big moment
Greggery gets her to cop to the unqualified submission was misleading
#robodebtRC
At cabinet. "did you notice the assertion then?"
No

G: Is it your evidence that a document capable of misleading a committee of cabinet...went unnoticed by you?
C: Yes. I cannot recall why I didn't notice it
Greggery notes she was closely involved in the costings #RobodebtRC

Greggery: was there any pressure from Ministers

Campbell: No pressure to attend ERC and say no legislative change.

Document does not reflect pressure to progress the measure to ERC
#RobodebtRC

"As the Secretary I was responsible for what happened in the Department. I did not notice the change in the draft"

botton line admission #RobodebtRC

"Was it your inadvertance then that the document arrived [this way]"?
Yes
It's a significant oversight on your part?
Yes

Suggestion coming... #RobodebtRC

He puts the alternative 'deliberative change' by the department.
"CAmpbell: I do not agree with that."

We had no fear of saying legislation needed in February. It's a defence in fairness. #RobodebtRC

Fascinating: If we were looking to mislead, we'd never have let that paper [Executive Minute] go up

Hastens to add she's never done anything like that in her career. #robodebtRC

Greggery now putting it that DHS had boxed themselves in with the Feb minute. Overpromised. Had to find a way

Campbell noting she'd never seen emails on what her lower down staff actually did until today #RobodebtRC

Campbell shifted onto the DSS 2017 account there - which puts it on them - 'growing comfortable'. So Commissioner puts the Golightly heavy account: that misled her.
Campbell can't speak to it
#RobodebtRC

Commissioner: Could Ms Golightly really ahve acted without sanction

Campbell insists she never gave her permission for it. #RobodebtRC
Backs Golightly, says "I don't think she would have done that"
Commissioner: but someone clearly didn't [follow the law]

There was high tempo there, everyone can see, because it was the point at which Ms Campbell could firmly state her views.
Responding to this KC who has never worked in government smart-bombing an elaborate paper trail?
That'll be slow and monotone, thanks
#RobodebtRC

Greggery now taking her the Secretary message on 30 January, that was the tipping point for poor Colleen Taylor

"you perpetuate the same misleading position..."
Yes' all round.
Says it was her understanding. The understanding holmes creased not 15 minutes ago.
#RobodebtRC

"I agree with you now on that...back then I was thinking of it in terms of the frame when the customer engaged"

The 2017 message was a mindset alright:
They're on social security, they're not answering us

The bludger frame #robodebtRC

They were able to what about the rule of law in this country for years.
When people ask 'how could robodebt happen?',
Answer is v clear: How deep and strong the 'welfare cop' rhetoric runs. It floods the public arena, leaves people swimming in shame and despair. #robodebtRC

Don't let anyone reduce this thing to just the absence of law. This was the presence of more important things we must act to redress. Genuinely, that's my core conviction, it's why I went intense and non legal in the senate.

Was doing the school run while listening to these weighty post lunch moments. The leader&Department that horsed into the media and ordinary Australians on the basis of correcting the record. Is now being torched as misleading. That I should have caveated it moment #RobodebtRC

So wonderful Australia got to meet Colleen Taylor.
As well as an expert brief on everything wrong with robodebt, you can see, that it essentially amounts to:

Here. So you can't deny it. Have some accountability.
#RobodebtRC

Campbell now saying "I don't recall reading it"
Her reaction on the email, was 'the CPSU probably has it"
Don't take that attitude. Respect your staff. The humanity Colleen T showed with that "you are being misled". #RobodebtRC

"I probably wouldn't have understood it"
"I was less into this at that time"
Commissioner: "why don't you leap on it?"
Campbell: I don't think I'd have understood it.
Greggery is going to lamp her for the defensive action now
#RobodebtRC

Like this whole time they are releasing 'on the media' pieces and correcting the record #RobodebtRC They were into this, they were smashing people.

But they're the one's who were believed, the people weren't

Trigger warning: Greggery now taking her to the second suicide escalation.

This is the case where the employer separation cert - an elemental check that was there pre 2015 - zeroes the "debt"
Campbell never saw the brief she says #RobodebtRC

On Colleen: "that was raised and passed to the area"
On the case of the woman who passed away: asked for an investigation never got an outcome
#RobodebtRC

Ms Campbell is struggling to identify steps taken.

You must take steps, you have to take steps #RobodebtRC

Greggery: do accept you delegated a response to Ms Taylor, and no one responded appropriately
Campbell: cops to corporate responsiblility
Greggery: But it was your choice to delegate that email...?
Campbell: Yes
#RobodebtRC

I'm having those feelings about Colleen, remember her story would never have been known. All the people appearing would have gone on and on. And Colleen would be in Queensland #RobodebtRC

https://twitter.com/DarrenODonovan/status/1602610692304953344?s=20

Oh boy, grim media team email
"we had a suicide issue recently which gives us a good basis for lines on this type of matter"
Jan 2017 2017
Did you tolerate that tone?
Campbell: No
What did you do about it?
I do not accept it was a media management issue
#RobodebtRC

Ms Campbell gives an important suicide support call out. echo that #RobodebtRC robodebt.royalcommission.gov.au/submission/cou…

We are onto Rhys now. Everyone look after themselves. #RobodebtRC
Greggery taking her to the 'a vulnerability indicator was not recorded' in line in the escalation brief, and Rhys' medical background on file.

Does not know why the vulnerability indicator was not recorded.
"I don't know how many JCA's are completed every day in Australia...a person made a mistake"
#RobodebtRC The Australian public expect you to own that mistake in the organisation. Not do what you did

Eventual conclusion "some minor errors of an administrative nature" is what is communicated to Rhys Mum. #RobodebtRC
Greggery: how can the department call it that
Campbell: "I don't know"

Accepts it would have stopped the debt collectors

Greggery: These were not genuine reviews [of escalated cases]
Campbell: Rejects that
#RobodebtRC Fierce stuff here, even if answers are delivered in a resigned flat tone.

People can see what Jenny Miller went through now. The hell of it.
Commissioner now noting how they were quibbling over interim manual vs OCI. It's all averaging.
They were word games
#RobodebtRC

"the staff were by this stage, pretty tired, and that tone had snuck in"
They corrected the record on Rhys, and buried the fact it was averaging. said it wasn't a robodebt effectively #RobodebtRC

Campbell on what killed the AGS advice as it was forming up:
Jackson's handover didn't strike her, doesn't recollect anything. Not the primary moment.
"Because I was talking to Ms Golightly who was closer to the topic" #RobodebtRC

Greggery: Can you explain how when Jackson had taken steps to get advice...they never turned up
Campbell: "I didn't know Mr Jackson had made the request" X 2
Ms Golightly told her nothing about it, Kruse, Musolino, Menzies McVey nothing #RobodebtRC

Flat denials all round on knowledge around the request for, and eventual disappearance of legals early January #RobodebtRC

Greggery putting stuff at a clip now, to get her response on record. The Fiveash emailed advice saying no to averaging, did Ms Musolino ever tell you?.
Campbell: No
Greggery: speaking now, would you expect it have been?
C: I don't know what was in Ms Musolino's mind #RobodebtRC

On to the Administrative Law Conference.
Does not accept it was regarded as a sensitive topic
Oh yeah sure, your staff are sending you an email about it as Secretary. They do that for lots of conferences. I'll email Ms Skinner direct so in July! #RobodebtRC

What steps did you take to satisfy yourself ...following criticisms by someone of Mr Hank's experience in the area
I was unaware of Mr Hanks' experience in the area. I was unaware of Mr Hanks did or his standing. #RobodebtRC
Stationary, stepless.

Holmes: it's a QC that's 'a bit ahead' of your DHS legal team?
Campbell: I relied on DHS, and Pratt's letter
Holmes: Mr Pratt's not a lawyer?
Campbell: I placed greater weight on that...
APS cult of authority #RobodebtRC

Accepts she should have reached out to Pratt to get independent legal advice. #RobodebtRC

On to the Clayton Utz's advice, the legals slowly turning turning in the brain of Ms Essex and then... who knows #RobodebtRC We'll get to the 'we were scared' points of juniors here

"It ought to have been raised with you?"
Yes
"was it the case that you projected to your departments...that you were not interested in getting legal advice in respect of the matter?"
No
Do you accept responsibility for the scheme continuing
I was not aware #RobodebtRC

Greggery now attacking down the failure to look at the DSS legals underpinning Pratt, or for new legals?
"Not my focus at that time"
#RobodebtRC

Good exchange there where Holmes asks 'you appear to have been very shielded from bad news'
Campbell says there was bad news every day in those departments shared with her
Greggery observes she was paid well to handle it, it was her job no
#RobodebtRC

There is limited paper going to Campbell across this timeline folks. A definite trend of absence
So Greggery is noting how paper is absent on legality, despite her deep deep involvement in the scheme #RobodebtRC

Oh greggery taking her to these Secretaries meetings in 2019. And when Ms Campbell found out about the prospects advice. Greggery looking for it because he will stress Campbell knew the history, knew the questions #RobodebtRC

Campbell rejects Leon's claim that she bragged about robodebt as a success for her, encouraging her to find similar savings #RobodebtRC

Greggery is testing why she can't remember if she asked for the Masterton prospects advice. There's a brief she has handwritten notes on noting the change of legal team in DHS in March 2019, I've seen #RobodebtRC

Aha Shane Bennett told her orally that there was prospects advice that put robodebt in doubt
Campbell says she was horrified
Puts the time vaguely at somewhere between the questions for the SG and the SG's advice! #RobodebtRC

Jump back to the PwC report now. Test her engagement on that #RobodebtRC

Greggery: did you direct it to be cabinet in confidence
Campbell: No [can't speak to it Hasn't seen any sign minister wanted it for cabinet]
#RobodebtRC
Greggery asking if she directed the report's suppression
Campbell: No

She heard nothing about who killed the report
Holmes: did you ask where it went?
Campbell: I wasn't fixated on a report, I remember seeing slides, a range of powerpoint slides. wasn't something I was waiting for #RobodebtRC

Now to the brief on the pilot that gets killed before it gets to her in writing #RobodebtRC

She initially denied she knew of the pilot
Greggery notes that in 2017 she knew of it, because she asked for it to be emphasised to the Ombudsman #RobodebtRC

She initially denied she knew of the pilot
Greggery notes that in 2017 she knew of it, because she asked for it to be emphasised to the Ombudsman #RobodebtRC

The draft brief reported a 60% non response rate, a surge of averaging, it is never given to her in writing #RobodebtRC

"A decision was made at some point by someone that the brief was not be sent to you"
DHS is an amazing amoeba existing of paper that forms up and moves around the Secretary. We don't know why #RobodebtRC

Greggery "one possibility is that because of the high number of non responses, it was considered best to communicate it to you orally"
Campbell: I have no recollection of that ever occurring.
#RobodebtRC

"The ombudsman's final report was a matter for the statutorily appointed ombudsman"
Ah but were they under the influence of someone? #RobodebtRC

We're done with primary questioning, just into commissioner questioning.
Campbell denies all direct knowledge or personal deliberate misconduct effectively.
Cops largely to corporate failures: not looking into things, not following up, relying on other blindly etc #RobodebtRC

Glyn Fiveash has made a statement, which Holmes indicates says Campbell lead off question to lawyers across business areas was usually 'what is the legal basis for this?'
Just a bit of context from a deputy counsel. Commissioner asking if she asked musolino that #RobodebtRC

Commissioner: "do you think you were doggedly maintaining the [no change line] might discourage people ...from thinking you wouldn't like to hear different"
No
Commish: Ms Taylor wrote to you and you didn't even read the email. #RobodebtRC

Campbell refuses to countenance that her public commentary had a 'chilling effect' on her juniors here. Interesting isn't it, at the human level. It's not a technical point or anything, it's a read on humans #RobodebtRC

Campbell email:
"we have to make sure it is in accordance with the law, not just beneficial to the recipient" 20 January 2017 email
Commissioner notes, that the email has a tone of a triumphant seizing on something Ms Goldie have said #RobodebtRC commish eyeing the vibe

A boss who roared down an unprecedented civil society, staked her career publicly on this thing...

Who six years later says, those comments won't have affected her juniors' attitude to approaching her #RobodebtRC Interesting take on humans

Commissioner noting that the 'refer to Ombudsman' line was ticked by Campbell. #RobodebtRC All questions please...

Refer to Ombudsman

Commissioner suggestion now:
That a desire to oblige government drove the 2015 NPP reading as it did
Campbell: that's one interpretation, I don't agree to it #RobodebtRC

hehe, Greggery is looking at that email about ACOSS sky news interview now. you said 'we should be sure' but you said were you sure.
Campbell: Golightly
Campbell: between 10-20th January 2017 Golightly told me DSS were fine with it
Greggery: DSS legals were 24 Jan!
#RobodebtRC

That Golightly was warranting DSS is comfortable prior to the written Pulford legals, indicates...

Well let's just say it doesn't point to a stuff up #RobodebtRC Campbell dunked some people in it there.

Commissioner is so good, like, she got that detail by pulling up the ACOSS email and walking through it again. #RobodebtRC

Thought this embodied the day, i delegated, I relied, I didn’t notice, I don’t know etc #RobodebtRC

https://twitter.com/strangerous10/status/1632979115241521152

Accepted “corporate responsibility” for some of the most serious things a department as an entity can do…everything else was the above verbs #RobodebtRC