Here's the stream to watch the final day of public hearings for the Royal Commission into the Robodebt Scheme:
#RobodebtRC
robodebt.royalcommission.gov.au
#RobodebtRC
robodebt.royalcommission.gov.au
The witness list for today is not quite up to date, as only 2 of the 5 witnesses are listed.
Taren Preston's the first witness. She was a social worker at Centrelink during Robodebt. Went to the agency as a graduate.
Counsel Assisting Salwa Marsh questioning her.
#RobodebtRC
Taren Preston's the first witness. She was a social worker at Centrelink during Robodebt. Went to the agency as a graduate.
Counsel Assisting Salwa Marsh questioning her.
#RobodebtRC
She worked as a manager of social workers in the Buiness Integrity Division, in the first social work team in that area around 2009, and built up a level of expertise in debt and fraud matters from a psycho-social perspective.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: Frequently supporting people through crisis response in a service centre, following up to make sure they had their payments, making sure the Department was fair and reasonable. The more complex the customer's needs, the more complex the legislative concerns.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
MARSH: How many customers a day, before Robodebt?
PRESTON: It was busy, but manageable at that point. Three or so appointments a day, some flexibility to respond to ~5 customers presenting at centres.
[Holmes says she's speaking quite fast, and to relax a bit 🙂]
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: It was busy, but manageable at that point. Three or so appointments a day, some flexibility to respond to ~5 customers presenting at centres.
[Holmes says she's speaking quite fast, and to relax a bit 🙂]
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: I'd be able to prepare & see where we were up to, so I could build rapport with customers. I was always curious and conscious of the way debts interacted with people on income support, they're already experiencing social exclusion. The debts hit differently.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: I'd often be sought out by other team members relating to debt matters, preparing reports on how special circumstances could be applied or considered.
MARSH: Compliance officers, and AROs?
P: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
MARSH: Compliance officers, and AROs?
P: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
MARSH: You'd also work with Centrelink staff?
PRESTON: Yes, incidents of customer aggression in centres, team dynamic issues. Would see staff around once a week. Planned appointments in advance.
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: Yes, incidents of customer aggression in centres, team dynamic issues. Would see staff around once a week. Planned appointments in advance.
#RobodebtRC
MARSH: You noticed an immediate increase in your workload in January 2016. 10 ppl a day.
PRESTON: I was coming back from maternity leave, so it was very stark to the DHS I knew before that leave. Increase in referrals, of customer distress of people with Robodebts.
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: I was coming back from maternity leave, so it was very stark to the DHS I knew before that leave. Increase in referrals, of customer distress of people with Robodebts.
#RobodebtRC
MARSH: Was there any increase in social workers in response?
PRESTON: There was no increase in social work resources. We were also losing good social workers as a result.
M: Were the levels of resourcing adequate?
P: Not at all.
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: There was no increase in social work resources. We were also losing good social workers as a result.
M: Were the levels of resourcing adequate?
P: Not at all.
#RobodebtRC
[CW: suicide]
PRESTON: Customers very heightened and distressed. Checking in on people's mental health. People would say they were going to throw themselves off a bridge. Frequently moving to a suicide risk assessment. I would try and do some safeguarding with them.
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: Customers very heightened and distressed. Checking in on people's mental health. People would say they were going to throw themselves off a bridge. Frequently moving to a suicide risk assessment. I would try and do some safeguarding with them.
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: I could make a referral to the Acute Crisis Team depending on what state the customer were in, they could then visit that person to provide support.
MARSH: You say customers felt hopeless, like there was no way out?
P: It was unfair, no way to navigate it.
#RobodebtRC
MARSH: You say customers felt hopeless, like there was no way out?
P: It was unfair, no way to navigate it.
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: Centrelink is a big system. When you're vulnerable, it's difficult to fight a big system. Such a short period of time to get information, and Centrelink not being forthcoming with information. I observed it seemed to feel crushing.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: I'd still do what I had always done. What I started to notice was that my assessments were no longer sought out. And my advocacy for special circumstances, we could wave debts in the public interest. This was looked down upon, I was told 'too bad, so sad'.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: There seemed to be a view that social workers didn't have a place in advocating in matters.
MARSH: There was an attitudinal shift?
P: It was a different culture. I began to see staff more frequently, I would start getting there around 8am to prepare them.
#RobodebtRC
MARSH: There was an attitudinal shift?
P: It was a different culture. I began to see staff more frequently, I would start getting there around 8am to prepare them.
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: They were good staff who wanted to help, and fighting their own battles against Robodebt in their own area. People felt ashamed, and anxious, and wanted to quit. Centrelink staff used to be fairly proud of what they did, now they couldn't be fair.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: One particularly bad day, I debriefed two staff members in tears before the Service Centre opened, and during that same day I made ten calls to Centrelink customers presenting with risk of suicide. I had an impending sense of doom, and anxiety myself.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: I had two kids myself and I had to balance my involvement. We were trying our hardest. My doctor cautioned me that I was showing signs of heading towards an adjustment disorder, and they advised me to quit my job.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
MARSH: You raised concerns with management?
PRESTON: I was very familiar with compliance officers and their work. At the outset the scheme made no mathematical sense. We were told it was 'the way of the future', but it didn't pass that pub test. It was a big shift.
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: I was very familiar with compliance officers and their work. At the outset the scheme made no mathematical sense. We were told it was 'the way of the future', but it didn't pass that pub test. It was a big shift.
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: Feedback was either ignored, leave it to the experts, or acknowledged but not given any pathway to advocating for them. I was mindful to give concrete examples to articulate unintended policy consequences, didn't feel it would get traction.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: We might meet with EL2s or SESs, but they would stonewall us.
MARSH: You say like you felt like you suffered a 'moral injury'?
P: It really shifted from the 'beneficial welfare state' mentality to a 'deserving and undeserving' frame.
#RobodebtRC
MARSH: You say like you felt like you suffered a 'moral injury'?
P: It really shifted from the 'beneficial welfare state' mentality to a 'deserving and undeserving' frame.
#RobodebtRC
PRESTON: A 'moral injury' for me is having to do work that was hurting people, where it was evident to me and others that it wasn't right.
HOLMES: Where were you working?
P: In Sydney and regional NSW.
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: Where were you working?
P: In Sydney and regional NSW.
#RobodebtRC
[She eventually took her doctor's advice and decided to quit to be with her 1 & 3 year old daughters.]
HOLMES: Thank you so much, Ms. Preston, you're excused.
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: Thank you so much, Ms. Preston, you're excused.
#RobodebtRC
The next witness is Kath Madgwick, mother of Jarrad Madgwick.
Go well, Kath.
abc.net.au/news/2022-09-2…
#RobodebtRC
Go well, Kath.
abc.net.au/news/2022-09-2…
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Your son, Jarrad Madgwick, passed away by suicide a few weeks short of his 23rd birthday in 2019. You've been watching these hearing blocks closely, you've stayed here for much of them?
MADGWICK: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You've gained some access to documents by the agency during the Royal Commission, have they clarified anything?
MADGWICK: It's been very helpful, it was very confusing getting information, it's helped to put my mind at rest.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: It's been very helpful, it was very confusing getting information, it's helped to put my mind at rest.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You were a single mother?
MADGWICK: Yes.
G: What can you tell us about Jarrad's life at school.
M: School captain in primary school, good swimmer and rugby player. We were very close, he'd escort me to dinners, Christmas parties, put his arm around me.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: Yes.
G: What can you tell us about Jarrad's life at school.
M: School captain in primary school, good swimmer and rugby player. We were very close, he'd escort me to dinners, Christmas parties, put his arm around me.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Did he call you in mid-April 2019?
MADGWICK: He had broken up with his girlfriend, he was being bullied at work, wanted to come home to live with me on the Sunshine Coast.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: He had broken up with his girlfriend, he was being bullied at work, wanted to come home to live with me on the Sunshine Coast.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: In 2017 he was studying writing on the Gold Coast. He'd written a story and gotten a scholarship, I remember being very proud of him.
GREGGERY: He had some talent in writing, studying online at Gold Coast University?
M: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: He had some talent in writing, studying online at Gold Coast University?
M: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: He worked doing a traineeship in Wodonga at a business my godson worked at. He left home in November 2017.
GREGGERY: Do you remember talking to him about Centrelink payments after that?
M: I reminded him he needed to report his income from work.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Do you remember talking to him about Centrelink payments after that?
M: I reminded him he needed to report his income from work.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: He told me he'd done so and learned he had $10,000 in Working Credits. He could earn up to that amount without impacting his payments.
GREGGERY: How many times did you visit him there?
M: Around three. Last time in 2019.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: How many times did you visit him there?
M: Around three. Last time in 2019.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: His employment had come to an end, on the last visit?
MADGWICK: Yes. My godson had a premature baby and had left, boss started bullying him. It seemed no-one was accountable for what was happening there. I told him to escalate his concerns.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: Yes. My godson had a premature baby and had left, boss started bullying him. It seemed no-one was accountable for what was happening there. I told him to escalate his concerns.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: Told me he couldn't do it anymore for mental health reasons and he had to quit.
GREGGERY: Did he have mental health concerns?
M: In Year 12 we went to Headspace. He couldn't get payments because I was earning too much. Better after we moved to the Coast.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Did he have mental health concerns?
M: In Year 12 we went to Headspace. He couldn't get payments because I was earning too much. Better after we moved to the Coast.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Jarrad continued to live in Wodonga after he left work. What did you know of his home life after that period?
MADGWICK: He moved in with his girlfriend, but they split up not long after the job ended. He ended up homeless, after an incident with his dog.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: He moved in with his girlfriend, but they split up not long after the job ended. He ended up homeless, after an incident with his dog.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: How was he the last time you visited him there?
MADGWICK: He was doing okay. He would take me out for breakfast. He always wanted to get me the dearest thing on the menu. It must be good, if it's dear.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: He was doing okay. He would take me out for breakfast. He always wanted to get me the dearest thing on the menu. It must be good, if it's dear.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: After that he had employment in hospitality. It was insecure, things were snowballing, he was becoming unreliable. I was working very hard, and I decided to work on a contract basis, and set up my own self-sufficient real estate business.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: It didn't work out, and so I was applying for Centrelink as well. Jarrad came back to the Coast.
GREGGERY: You both applied at the same service centre?
M: That's correct. I received my payments, Jarrad got a rejection letter and reapplied, extra 3-4 weeks
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You both applied at the same service centre?
M: That's correct. I received my payments, Jarrad got a rejection letter and reapplied, extra 3-4 weeks
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: When we went into the Centrelink centre, Jarrad was directed to complete his application online, on the computers.
GREGGERY: You see that Jarrad advised Centrelink the mandatory phone interview hadn't arrived. How did not having this money affect him?
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You see that Jarrad advised Centrelink the mandatory phone interview hadn't arrived. How did not having this money affect him?
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: He was struggling, he had parking fines and he kept getting texts. One day the police showed up and said he'd stolen some vitamins from the chemist. That shocked me, he'd never stolen anything. He didn't want to ask me for money to buy those for them.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What do you recall about Jarrad's interactions with Centrelink in late May?
MADGWICK: Jarrad came rushing into my room, distressed they'd rejected his claim again, had to settle him down. Called them the next day and they said no BSB on his bank statement.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: Jarrad came rushing into my room, distressed they'd rejected his claim again, had to settle him down. Called them the next day and they said no BSB on his bank statement.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: Jarrad rightly pointed out that they already had the BSB from the prior application, he couldn't understand why.
GREGGERY: He was swearing, it got sent up the line?
M: He got to a manager, called him an idiot and said he wanted his mum to speak for him.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: He was swearing, it got sent up the line?
M: He got to a manager, called him an idiot and said he wanted his mum to speak for him.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: As he was passing me the phone, the manager hung up. We then rang complaints, and they talked him through uploading documents and getting his application through.
GREGGERY: Was that helpful?
M: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Was that helpful?
M: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: How was he after that phonecall?
MADGWICK: Normal, listening to music, eating everything. At around 5pm everything changed. He came out and said he wasn't getting paid, and now he owed them $2000. He was very distressed, and depressed from that point.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: Normal, listening to music, eating everything. At around 5pm everything changed. He came out and said he wasn't getting paid, and now he owed them $2000. He was very distressed, and depressed from that point.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: This letter shows his claim for Newstart was rejected on 30 May 2019. Did you see any letter about his debt?
MADGWICK: No.
G: What was the next conversation you had with Jarrad?
M: He came out of his room and wanted me to look at a cover letter.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: No.
G: What was the next conversation you had with Jarrad?
M: He came out of his room and wanted me to look at a cover letter.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: Desperately looking for work after this. I gave him some feedback that the cover letter seemed a bit desparate. His behaviour was escalating, he swore at me, went back to his room. My brother said he was too good for the meatworks he was applying for.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: Shows how he was catastrophising at the time.
GREGGERY: At about 6:45pm, he left the house?
M: That's correct.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: At about 6:45pm, he left the house?
M: That's correct.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: This is Centrelink's response to the Commission. They say a CUPI review commenced on 27 May 2019. It says he actioned his review by entering his payslip information, and that it would take up to four weeks.
MADGWICK: I didn't know anything about this.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: I didn't know anything about this.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Another document that's been made available to you is this OCI letter. It says 'if you don't update your information, we will use the details we already have'.
MADGWICK: Reversal of onus. He had to provide information they would have to find in the past.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: Reversal of onus. He had to provide information they would have to find in the past.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: He may not have understood what he was doing.
HOLMES: Is it possible they sent him a message on his MyGov account, as well as sending him a letter?
M: It is possible, yes.
[Shout-out to MyGov. Roll those memes, Mr. Shorten.]
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: Is it possible they sent him a message on his MyGov account, as well as sending him a letter?
M: It is possible, yes.
[Shout-out to MyGov. Roll those memes, Mr. Shorten.]
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: The next contact from Centrelink, according to their statement, relates to a Compliance Officer attempting to phone Jarrad on 3 Jun 2019. Have you been able to identify how Jarrad found out about the debt?
MADGWICK: No, he just came out of his room.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: No, he just came out of his room.
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: I can't seem to see any human contact, it's all online...
MADGWICK: No human contact at all.
GREGGERY: Phonecalls related to his Newstart Application?
M: That's correct.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: No human contact at all.
GREGGERY: Phonecalls related to his Newstart Application?
M: That's correct.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: Jarrad left the house at 6:45pm. I was angry at him, I wasn't about to put up with his behaviour, I thought he was going to cool off. I got a message saying 'I love you' around 7:31pm. I thought 'that's great, he's settled down.' I decided to go to bed.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: He didn't come back the next morning. Called my friend, on the phone at the time. He had friends, he was seeing a girl at the time. Was trying to call him, and it went to message bank. Went into his bedroom and noticed his wallet was there. I called police.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: I called police, Thought they'd look for him and bring him home. All day & all night I waited. It was unlike Jarrad to do this, but maybe his phone was flat. Police rang the next morning. I said 'have you found him?', they said 'we haven't started looking'.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: I started looking for him, took the dog to the park, couldn't find him anywhere. I noticed what seemed to be a jumper in a tree. As I got closer, I saw his beautiful face.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: I'd put a post on Facebook looking for him. A friend was at home by the time I got back. They gave me some sleeping tablets. The next few days were a bit of a blur. I was blaming myself, that I was a bad mother because of the argument.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: I was being asked, what was different that day? 'You and Jarrad have had many arguments'. The pieces started to come back to me 5-6 days later as to everything that occurred with his Newstart claim and the debt.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: On the 3rd of June, his Newstart was granted, and backdated to when you attended the service centre. This was the day you informed Centrelink of his death?
MADGWICK: Yes, it was.
G: The 'death action' recorded is to pay arrears of $1,129. [and change]
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: Yes, it was.
G: The 'death action' recorded is to pay arrears of $1,129. [and change]
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You wrote to Stuart Robert on 9 Jun 2019, did you receive a response?
MADGWICK: No.
G: Did you contact anyone else?
M: The Prime Minister, Scott Morrison.
G: Any response.
M: No. Not even a 'sorry for your loss'.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: No.
G: Did you contact anyone else?
M: The Prime Minister, Scott Morrison.
G: Any response.
M: No. Not even a 'sorry for your loss'.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: I took it to a journalist because no-one was listening to me. I believed my son was put here to make the world a better place. If this was his purpose, I wanted to make sure this wouldn't happen to anyone else.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You note it was difficult for you to get information about what happened to Jarrad from Centrelink.
MADGWICK: It was excruciating, confusing.
G: You made an FOI application?
M: Many. So many documents I didn't understand, or fit with my experience.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: It was excruciating, confusing.
G: You made an FOI application?
M: Many. So many documents I didn't understand, or fit with my experience.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: They'd tell me they couldn't give me personal information with his date of birth, to which I said 'would you like to know what time he was born?'
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Is there anything you'd want to add, what you'd like to see?
MADGWICK: There's been a lack of duty of care. They haven't looked at the harms. It doesn't make financial sense, the stress put on staff and customers. A lot of damage, and impact on everyone.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: There's been a lack of duty of care. They haven't looked at the harms. It doesn't make financial sense, the stress put on staff and customers. A lot of damage, and impact on everyone.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: After he passed, you went to Jarrad's computer?
MADGWICK: His last Facebook post. 'Free will is an illusion, we're punished by a system as products of that environment.' I think that's what we've uncovered here. I can finally grieve for my son.
#RobodebtRC
MADGWICK: His last Facebook post. 'Free will is an illusion, we're punished by a system as products of that environment.' I think that's what we've uncovered here. I can finally grieve for my son.
#RobodebtRC
The Royal Commission is adjourned for the morning recess.
They will return in around 15 minutes.
Thank you, Kathleen Madgwick.
#RobodebtRC
They will return in around 15 minutes.
Thank you, Kathleen Madgwick.
#RobodebtRC
A good time to share this, perhaps – last night Kath, @JennyMi11374978 and I caught up at the rooftop bar at the Royal Commission Hotel.
Kath was understandably feeling a bit nervous, but I couldn't tell today.
Mums are the best.
#RobodebtRC
Kath was understandably feeling a bit nervous, but I couldn't tell today.
Mums are the best.
#RobodebtRC
It's not the greatest photo of all-time, but we kept 'accidentally' getting free margaritas.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
The Royal Commission has returned, to hear from John Barnett, the mystery former lawyer from DHS they belatedly tracked down in Tasmania on a tip-off from another witness.
He worked at the CDPP before he moved to Centrelink in 2006.
#RobodebtRC
He worked at the CDPP before he moved to Centrelink in 2006.
https://twitter.com/maximumwelfare/status/1630063213521022976?s=20
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Reporting to Maris Stipnieks in the Legal Services Division?
BARNETT: That's correct.
S: You second-counselled an advice on instructions from Jason Ryman, received on 8 January 2015?
B: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: That's correct.
S: You second-counselled an advice on instructions from Jason Ryman, received on 8 January 2015?
B: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: 'The proposed process will enable an automated assessment of information from data matching'.
[The video link has died, so they will take a short break. I can bring my guitar from next door to play the stream intermission music live, if this happens again.]
#RobodebtRC
[The video link has died, so they will take a short break. I can bring my guitar from next door to play the stream intermission music live, if this happens again.]
#RobodebtRC
It seems the technical issue is on the Tasmanian end of things.
Jenny has popped into the media room to give me a big hug as they are off. Hug count is somewhere in the realms of ~10 since I've been up there. I'm going to do lots more work for their boys, I promise.
#RobodebtRC
Jenny has popped into the media room to give me a big hug as they are off. Hug count is somewhere in the realms of ~10 since I've been up there. I'm going to do lots more work for their boys, I promise.
#RobodebtRC
After Kath Madgwick's testimony there was stunned silence among everyone working here. The mood remains restrained.
This is not how we all showed up this morning, that's for sure.
#RobodebtRC
This is not how we all showed up this morning, that's for sure.
#RobodebtRC
[We're back with John Barnett, at last.]
SCOTT: 'Can we automatically apply the assessment outcome if a customer failed to act?', did you review these instructions?
BARNETT: I can't recall, but I assume so.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: 'Can we automatically apply the assessment outcome if a customer failed to act?', did you review these instructions?
BARNETT: I can't recall, but I assume so.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You appreciated from these instructions that the process was an 'automatic assessment outcome'?
BARNETT: I can't be sure of what that term actually entails...
S: Well, doesn't it indicate on its face that it's to be automated?
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: I can't be sure of what that term actually entails...
S: Well, doesn't it indicate on its face that it's to be automated?
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: If there was an amount that was shown to the customer and they didn't respond, that would be the amount that the decision maker used in context of other information.
SCOTT: Did these words indicate to you there was to be an automated decision?
B: No.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Did these words indicate to you there was to be an automated decision?
B: No.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: No?
BARNETT: An assessment of what income is going to be used in the decision-making process, not that decision-making process itself.
S: That's how you understood those words?
B: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: An assessment of what income is going to be used in the decision-making process, not that decision-making process itself.
S: That's how you understood those words?
B: Yes.
#RobodebtRC
[Scott is taking Mr. Barnett through several iterations of instructions for advice by Jason Ryman. Includes a bunch of 'last resort' stuff, instructions ask to note 'it's consistent with current policy and doesn't change how debts are calculated or income assessed']
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: The process described in this paragraph relates to averaging?
BARNETT: Yes. A way of apportioning a figure across fortnightly periods. It would be based on an assumption that income had been earned in equal amounts across the fortnightly periods.
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: Yes. A way of apportioning a figure across fortnightly periods. It would be based on an assumption that income had been earned in equal amounts across the fortnightly periods.
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: I'm trying to point out that is a figure that can be arrived at, and then considered by a decision-maker in context before making a final decision.
SCOTT: You didn't appreciate it was a proposal to calculate debts based on that assumption?
B: No, I didn't.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You didn't appreciate it was a proposal to calculate debts based on that assumption?
B: No, I didn't.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: The final version of the April 2015 advice, second-counselled by you. Did you satisfy yourself the answer was appropriate, based on the understanding you had of how averaging was to be used?
BARNETT: Yes. Decision-maker was required not to view in isolation.
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: Yes. Decision-maker was required not to view in isolation.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Now to your January 2017 advice, in response to a request from Paul Menzies-McVey?
BARNETT: Correct.
S: Deals with the lawfulness of income averaging?
B: In response to a situation where ATO data was being used to calculate entitlements, yes.
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: Correct.
S: Deals with the lawfulness of income averaging?
B: In response to a situation where ATO data was being used to calculate entitlements, yes.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: You provided this to Mr. Gladman, correct?
BARNETT: Yes, as a starting point to get a better understanding and move towards more formal final advice to provide to Mr. Menzies-McVey.
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: Yes, as a starting point to get a better understanding and move towards more formal final advice to provide to Mr. Menzies-McVey.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Mr. Gladman said words to the effect of 'it didn't add up', correct?
BARNETT: Yes, I agreed. There were so many circumstances and rules that affect a customers entitlement to payment, and this system was being used across payment types. By automated decision.
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: Yes, I agreed. There were so many circumstances and rules that affect a customers entitlement to payment, and this system was being used across payment types. By automated decision.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: In your statement you discuss your views on seeking AGS advice?
BARNETT: Mr. Gladman had mentioned an AGS advice in discussion with me, and I agreed that would be the best way forward. I assisted in preparing those draft instructions for Mr. Gladman.
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: Mr. Gladman had mentioned an AGS advice in discussion with me, and I agreed that would be the best way forward. I assisted in preparing those draft instructions for Mr. Gladman.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: What happened regarding the proposal to retain AGS on the matter?
BARNETT: Mr. Gladman was going to discuss the draft advice on averaging and the AGS instructions with acting DHS Chief Counsel Lisa Carmody.
S: Did you make enquiries about what happened?
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: Mr. Gladman was going to discuss the draft advice on averaging and the AGS instructions with acting DHS Chief Counsel Lisa Carmody.
S: Did you make enquiries about what happened?
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: Not to my recollection, Counsel.
SCOTT: Were you interested?
B: Interested might be the wrong word, with respect. There were a lot of people providing a lot of information in the space. I wasn't disinterested, just something I didn't inquire about.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Were you interested?
B: Interested might be the wrong word, with respect. There were a lot of people providing a lot of information in the space. I wasn't disinterested, just something I didn't inquire about.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Do you recall Glyn Fiveash? Was he a subject matter expert?
BARNETT: I know Glyn, yes. A background in DSS and gave advice from time to time.
HOLMES: Not totally unequivocal...
B: He may well consider himself to be, I don't know enough to say so.
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: I know Glyn, yes. A background in DSS and gave advice from time to time.
HOLMES: Not totally unequivocal...
B: He may well consider himself to be, I don't know enough to say so.
#RobodebtRC
SCOTT: Were you aware that Mr. Fiveash gave advice on the lawfulness of averaging in January 2017?
BARNETT: No, I did not.
[Lower-intensity bombshell. That's his evidence. They are taking a short break while Mr. Fiveash's video-link is prepared, I assume.]
#RobodebtRC
BARNETT: No, I did not.
[Lower-intensity bombshell. That's his evidence. They are taking a short break while Mr. Fiveash's video-link is prepared, I assume.]
#RobodebtRC
Glyn Fiveash is affirmed. He's appearing from Canberra, from the Australian Government Solicitor's offices.
GREGGERY: You retired from DHS on 25 January 2019, having spent a number of years working as an in-house lawyer in various areas?
FIVEASH: That's correct.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You retired from DHS on 25 January 2019, having spent a number of years working as an in-house lawyer in various areas?
FIVEASH: That's correct.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You provided social security advice at DSS from late 1998, until 2011?
FIVEASH: That's correct. Leaving as an EL2.
G: Can you be more specific about the advice you gave?
F: Aged payments, and means testing of all payments.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: That's correct. Leaving as an EL2.
G: Can you be more specific about the advice you gave?
F: Aged payments, and means testing of all payments.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You left DSS to join DHS in 2011. Did that involve a promotion?
FIVEASH: In part. It was a more senior position but remained an EL2. I was in the Strategic Legal Area, working for Paul Menzies-McVey. Only there for about six months.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: In part. It was a more senior position but remained an EL2. I was in the Strategic Legal Area, working for Paul Menzies-McVey. Only there for about six months.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Where did you move after that?
FIVEASH: I did a few months of acting General Counsel, which is SES Band 1, across commercial law and people legal. Then moved to Program Advice Branch. Child support, Medicare. John Barnett was the head of Social Security.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: I did a few months of acting General Counsel, which is SES Band 1, across commercial law and people legal. Then moved to Program Advice Branch. Child support, Medicare. John Barnett was the head of Social Security.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Was he always based in Hobart?
FIVEASH: Yes. We spoke regularly because we'd been doing SS advice for a long time. Although I headed child support, I didn't know a lot about it. I relied on others.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: Yes. We spoke regularly because we'd been doing SS advice for a long time. Although I headed child support, I didn't know a lot about it. I relied on others.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: I Think it was about 18 months cumulatively that I acted in SES roles during my time in DHS.
GREGGERY: And General Counsel reports to the Chief Counsel?
F: Yes.
[Transcript problem. Hogan-Doran provides tech support updates, as she has all Commission.]
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: And General Counsel reports to the Chief Counsel?
F: Yes.
[Transcript problem. Hogan-Doran provides tech support updates, as she has all Commission.]
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: How would you describe your relationship with Annette Musolino?
FIVEASH: Good relationship, but I hadn't known her previously. She wouldn't come down to ask me questions as often as previous CC.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: Good relationship, but I hadn't known her previously. She wouldn't come down to ask me questions as often as previous CC.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: To your Jan 23 2017 email to Musolino. You were acting for Menzies-McVey at the time you sent this email?
FIVEASH: Yes.
G: You sent an 'information piece for the Strategic Analysis section'. Do you recall any response from Musolino?
F: I don't, sorry.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: Yes.
G: You sent an 'information piece for the Strategic Analysis section'. Do you recall any response from Musolino?
F: I don't, sorry.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You also forwarded it to Mr. Menzies-McVey?
FIVEASH: Yes, he was on leave, it was something he'd want to see when he returned.
G: Although on leave, he says 'apart from anything you've done, the branch hasn't done anything of relevance'.
F: Correct.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: Yes, he was on leave, it was something he'd want to see when he returned.
G: Although on leave, he says 'apart from anything you've done, the branch hasn't done anything of relevance'.
F: Correct.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Advice you sent to Tracy Tozer on 11 Jan 2017?
FIVEASH: I actually didn't recall that I'd written that advice, until I saw it on ABC News.
[There you go...good job @CiaraEJones]
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: I actually didn't recall that I'd written that advice, until I saw it on ABC News.
[There you go...good job @CiaraEJones]
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Now you've reviewed documents, do you recall how it came to be that you provided advice to Ms. Tozer?
FIVEASH: We were nearby to Tracy Tozer in the office, so she must have asked me for that advice. I don't actually recall but that seems the implication.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: We were nearby to Tracy Tozer in the office, so she must have asked me for that advice. I don't actually recall but that seems the implication.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: In your statement, you say you didn't meet Kathryn Campbell often, how often would you?
FIVEASH: It was a bit odd because at DSS I'd meet the Secretary a couple of times a year. I believe I only met the DHS Secretary once or twice ever.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: It was a bit odd because at DSS I'd meet the Secretary a couple of times a year. I believe I only met the DHS Secretary once or twice ever.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: I had occasion to meet her because someone had claimed we were doing something illegally and we weren't.
HOLMES: You say a common starting point for her was to ask 'what's the legal basis to do for this'?
F: I would tell people that's what she would ask.
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: You say a common starting point for her was to ask 'what's the legal basis to do for this'?
F: I would tell people that's what she would ask.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You say you had a practice of providing brief legal advice, as people in DHS wouldn't read the whole thing?
FIVEASH: Lawyers would obviously want full advice, but for others I kept them as short as possible in the hopes they would, yes.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: Lawyers would obviously want full advice, but for others I kept them as short as possible in the hopes they would, yes.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: I said there's two categories of social security payments, annual and fortnightly. You certainly can't do income averaging on payments that are paid fortnightly.
GREGGERY: Were you aware at this time of the Ombudsman's investigation into the OCI scheme?
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Were you aware at this time of the Ombudsman's investigation into the OCI scheme?
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: I don't believe I was aware of that at the time I wrote the advice to Tracy.
GREGGERY: Did you subsequently become aware?
F: Sudden feeling of panic later in the month, about who had written what and given what advice. Not sure what the source was.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Did you subsequently become aware?
F: Sudden feeling of panic later in the month, about who had written what and given what advice. Not sure what the source was.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: It was a little odd, the Department. When I was in DSS was it was well-understood EL2 lawyers were the people with the knowledge. On one occasion I found my SES officer, Maris, writing a social security advice I know he had no idea about, and it was wrong.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Did Mr. Stipnieks ever contact you about your advice to Musolino and Menzies-McVey on 23 January?
FIVEASH: I don't recall.
HOLMES: Do you recall anyone mentioning the advice you've given?
F: No, I never recall having that advice mentioned to me.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: I don't recall.
HOLMES: Do you recall anyone mentioning the advice you've given?
F: No, I never recall having that advice mentioned to me.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Were you aware the OCI program continued over subsequent years?
FIVEASH: Wasn't aware of particular projects coming and going, generally. No alarm bells, no problem with averaging the annual payments. I wouldn't have assumed they were using it fortnightly.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: Wasn't aware of particular projects coming and going, generally. No alarm bells, no problem with averaging the annual payments. I wouldn't have assumed they were using it fortnightly.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You learned about averaging through media, after you retired?
FIVEASH: Whenever Robodebt stories were in the news, I'd say 'if only someone had asked me, I would have told them not to do it'. As I said, I didn't recall I actually HAD written an advice!
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: Whenever Robodebt stories were in the news, I'd say 'if only someone had asked me, I would have told them not to do it'. As I said, I didn't recall I actually HAD written an advice!
#RobodebtRC
[Greggery getting him to clarify that the 'constitutional risk assessment' by AGS in the New Policy Proposals relates to authority for budget expenditure only.]
G: Did DHS ever, through you, actually engage the AGS in respect of the NPP?
F: I don't believe so, no.
#RobodebtRC
G: Did DHS ever, through you, actually engage the AGS in respect of the NPP?
F: I don't believe so, no.
#RobodebtRC
[Greggery has an email that shows DHS saying they don't need any new authority for the spending.]
FIVEASH: Whenever external advice was sought, that went through us to keep an eye on legal budget. We would flick it through to AGS, do a quick summary for them.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: Whenever external advice was sought, that went through us to keep an eye on legal budget. We would flick it through to AGS, do a quick summary for them.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Do you recall doing one for the Strengthening Integrity NPP?
FIVEASH: I don't recall doing one.
G: Any concern about any of the content of NPP?
F: I always checked that the customer was going to be consulted, so no concerns on that.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: I don't recall doing one.
G: Any concern about any of the content of NPP?
F: I always checked that the customer was going to be consulted, so no concerns on that.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: There were a large number of interventions involved, large amount of money. Recall noticing that?
FIVEASH: I noticed they were going to be increased, but in itself that wasn't cause for concern.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: I noticed they were going to be increased, but in itself that wasn't cause for concern.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What do you recall of the DSS interest in the Strengthening Integrity AGS advice at this point in time?
FIVEASH: I don't recall the DSS interest in particular. It was quite often we'd share advice with each other.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: I don't recall the DSS interest in particular. It was quite often we'd share advice with each other.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What was the standard practice in respect of sharing advice between Departments, give you'd worked in both?
FIVEASH: It could be a little confused. DSS were happy for us to write advice as long as we didn't write anything controversial without consulting.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: It could be a little confused. DSS were happy for us to write advice as long as we didn't write anything controversial without consulting.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What do you mean by 'controversial'?
FIVEASH: Well, they had responsibility for providing advice about the Social Security Act because their portfolio owned it. For run-of-the-mill things, they were happy for us not to consult, unless it was bigger.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: Well, they had responsibility for providing advice about the Social Security Act because their portfolio owned it. For run-of-the-mill things, they were happy for us not to consult, unless it was bigger.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Given the significance of the measure, involving a large amount of money, you'd expect DHS would contact DSS?
FIVEASH: I certainly would've expected them to ask for legal advice, although it didn't matter from whom. I assumed they were thinking no change.
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: I certainly would've expected them to ask for legal advice, although it didn't matter from whom. I assumed they were thinking no change.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What about a practice of obtaining external advice in draft and not progressing?
FIVEASH: I can remember some examples over 20 years of external advice not progressing, but none left in draft.
[The Commission adjourns for a late lunch, back @ 1500AEST]
#RobodebtRC
FIVEASH: I can remember some examples over 20 years of external advice not progressing, but none left in draft.
[The Commission adjourns for a late lunch, back @ 1500AEST]
#RobodebtRC
Glyn Fiveash is excused.
We will return with Melanie Metz, and then the closing remarks from Justin Greggery KC.
#RobodebtRC
We will return with Melanie Metz, and then the closing remarks from Justin Greggery KC.
#RobodebtRC
The final day of downstairs dumplings.
Shout-out to Steamed, an integral part of the reporting ecosystem.
#RobodebtRC
Shout-out to Steamed, an integral part of the reporting ecosystem.
#RobodebtRC
Getting seated now for the final session of public hearings. The last ~5 months have been a blur. All the Counsels Assisting are sitting together for the first time.
Here's that stream, once last time:
#RobodebtRC
robodebt.royalcommission.gov.au
Here's that stream, once last time:
#RobodebtRC
robodebt.royalcommission.gov.au
Melanie Metz is affirmed.
The former Deputy Chief Legal Counsel, and Branch Manger, in the Legal Services Branch of the Department of Human Services (DHS).
Senior Counsel Assisting Justin Greggery KC to take the final witness.
#RobodebtRC
The former Deputy Chief Legal Counsel, and Branch Manger, in the Legal Services Branch of the Department of Human Services (DHS).
Senior Counsel Assisting Justin Greggery KC to take the final witness.
#RobodebtRC
She held similar roles in DSS from 4 June 2018 to April 18 2019. Prior to this, though, she was at DHS.
METZ: Alan Grinsell-Jones approached me in Jan 2017 on behalf of Cath Halbert to obtain prior legal advice on the use of averaging. I forwarded Pulford's advice.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: Alan Grinsell-Jones approached me in Jan 2017 on behalf of Cath Halbert to obtain prior legal advice on the use of averaging. I forwarded Pulford's advice.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Ms. Fredericks is referred to in subsequent emails, was she working at the time?
METZ: I don't recall. Later in 2017 she joined DSS.
G: Apart from sending advice to Grinsell-Jones, did you have any other involvement?
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I don't recall. Later in 2017 she joined DSS.
G: Apart from sending advice to Grinsell-Jones, did you have any other involvement?
#RobodebtRC
METZ: Sent an email to Pulford later that week, compiled advices with a junior lawyer, in case she needed quick access to it. Lots of media and requests every day about Robodebt.
GREGGERY: What kind of requests were you getting?
M: Can't go to the specifics...
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What kind of requests were you getting?
M: Can't go to the specifics...
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Were you aware at the time of the Ombudsman's own-motion investigation into the OCI program?
METZ: I was not.
G: Were these advices that you forwarded turned up by searches?
M: They were generated by me and junior lawyer.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I was not.
G: Were these advices that you forwarded turned up by searches?
M: They were generated by me and junior lawyer.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Did anything in Pulford's 2014 advice cause you to reconsider whether previous advices you'd given had been inconsistent?
METZ: No, reference to 'silly mistake' was regarding an incorrect provision of Social Security Act.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: No, reference to 'silly mistake' was regarding an incorrect provision of Social Security Act.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Ms. Pulford said 'I've had a conversation with Emma-Kate [McGuirk] on the basis we can make an argument to support the position discussed, happy to talk it through with you.'
METZ: She never discussed it with me, so I can't tell you what was meant.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: She never discussed it with me, so I can't tell you what was meant.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Ms. Pulford's first email suggests there had been some position discussed, about income smoothing?
METZ: I read that as being discussed between her and Emma-Kate.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I read that as being discussed between her and Emma-Kate.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I didn't have a sophisticated understanding of averaging at the time, and certainly not that it was the sole basis for raising a debt.
GREGGERY: Did you understand Ms. Pulford to be responding to a request for advice where averaging was the sole basis?
M: No.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Did you understand Ms. Pulford to be responding to a request for advice where averaging was the sole basis?
M: No.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You say you assumed it would be needed for Ms Halbert to need the advice to discuss with DHS and Porter?
METZ: I assume it would be used to reargue the DSS position on averaging. I returned to my regular responsibilities, and had no further involvement.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I assume it would be used to reargue the DSS position on averaging. I returned to my regular responsibilities, and had no further involvement.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: Around that time I started working on the National Redress Scheme, which was very intense work. I was very busy and immersed in that work.
GREGGERY: You were permanently seconded to that Scheme in 2018?
M: That's right. Working on draft legislation.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You were permanently seconded to that Scheme in 2018?
M: That's right. Working on draft legislation.
#RobodebtRC
[I think Greggery has managed to stitch me up as to when she was at DHS or DSS, I'll take it up with him later.]
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Were you aware of the DSS position on as to legality of income averaging?
METZ: I understand now I was not across the proper position, I was unaware of Ms. Pulford's 2017 advice in the course of the Ombudsman's inquiry.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I understand now I was not across the proper position, I was unaware of Ms. Pulford's 2017 advice in the course of the Ombudsman's inquiry.
#RobodebtRC
[5 Jun 2018 email from Anna Fredericks on a table of AAT reviews and appeals, a 'litigation report', Metz was back from the Redress Scheme by then]
GREGGERY: Was this the first time you became aware that averaging was being used to calculate debts?
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Was this the first time you became aware that averaging was being used to calculate debts?
#RobodebtRC
METZ: It was within that time period, it's possible I'd also discussed it with Ms. Fredericks around then.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
[Email about a meeting between DHS and DSS, referring to Legal Services Branch 'talking points'. Which Ms. Metz hasn't been able to turn up just yet. Discussing litigation matters relating to adverse AAT decision]
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
METZ: Ms. Fredericks and I had discussions about obtaining external legal advice in response to the AAT decision.
GREGGERY: And in response to Prof. Carney's article about Robodebt?
M: Yes. Approaching one, or several, external legal firms.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: And in response to Prof. Carney's article about Robodebt?
M: Yes. Approaching one, or several, external legal firms.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: The draft advice was returned from Clayton Utz on 14 Aug 2018. What do you recall about it being converted from draft form?
METZ: I don't recall, and now I'm aware it never was.
G: Did you have any involvement in that decision, as Branch Manager?
M: No.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I don't recall, and now I'm aware it never was.
G: Did you have any involvement in that decision, as Branch Manager?
M: No.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What steps did you take to provide that draft advice to the Chief Counsel at the time [Anthony Seebach]?
METZ: I can't find any evidence of forwarding it, but we discussed such things regularly. May have been provided to him in hard copy, I don't know.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I can't find any evidence of forwarding it, but we discussed such things regularly. May have been provided to him in hard copy, I don't know.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: You can't recall the discussion with him?
METZ: We discussed Robodebt on several occasions, about our concerns and potential litigation. I think he accepted that view. We discussed many work matters in detail daily.
G: Undoubtedly.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: We discussed Robodebt on several occasions, about our concerns and potential litigation. I think he accepted that view. We discussed many work matters in detail daily.
G: Undoubtedly.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: By this time, Kathryn Campbell was Secretary of DSS, having established the program at DHS, did that have any impact on you not forwarding it?
METZ: No. The program area would decide whether or not to escalate it. I would have done so without question.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: No. The program area would decide whether or not to escalate it. I would have done so without question.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I can't speak for Mr. Seebach, but my expectation was it would be escalated to the Secretary. It would go to the Chief Operating Officer first.
GREGGERY: Do you recall any conversations with them about Robodebt?
M: Not specifically, no.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Do you recall any conversations with them about Robodebt?
M: Not specifically, no.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Did you follow up with the program area to see if the advice had been escalated?
METZ: It wasn't my usual practice. I would the program area to do so if necessary.
G: The LSB paid for it, you were the manager?
M: At home with my sick child that day.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: It wasn't my usual practice. I would the program area to do so if necessary.
G: The LSB paid for it, you were the manager?
M: At home with my sick child that day.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I expect Ms. Fredericks would have approved the invoice as the relevant lawyer.
GREGGERY: Through the procurement system? Where would the Royal Commission look?
M: DSS procurement system, not sure of the title, don't recall.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Through the procurement system? Where would the Royal Commission look?
M: DSS procurement system, not sure of the title, don't recall.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Did you follow up the advice with Ms. Fredericks?
METZ: No. I've heard some evidence that legal advice in draft form wasn't relevant, which shocked me. Often the relevant lawyer or the firm just forgot to finalise it, we'd still have it.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: No. I've heard some evidence that legal advice in draft form wasn't relevant, which shocked me. Often the relevant lawyer or the firm just forgot to finalise it, we'd still have it.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Was there a time where you did feel inhibited from progressing legal advice?
METZ: I wouldn't say inhibited. There was certain caution about what advice was provided later in my time. At least two matters I can recall where the Secretary was unhappy.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I wouldn't say inhibited. There was certain caution about what advice was provided later in my time. At least two matters I can recall where the Secretary was unhappy.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Are you able to speak more plainly?
METZ: One advice ended up going under cover of a brief from the Disability & Carers Division. Related to the degree of control that Secretary Campbell had over the NDIA, its functions and independence. Very unhappy.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: One advice ended up going under cover of a brief from the Disability & Carers Division. Related to the degree of control that Secretary Campbell had over the NDIA, its functions and independence. Very unhappy.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: Another one related to release of information under the National Redress Scheme. We got a draft external opinion I strongly disagreed with. I got subsequent advice from a senior counsel I believed overruled it. Ms. Campbell said she didn't believe SC's opinion.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
METZ: She made it clear that she preferred the draft external advice. It was more conservative than our internal advice, so I'd got advice from a silk.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: What did you see and hear from Campbell?
METZ: Had a meeting with Seebach where we discussed that if we'd known she'd responded like that, we'd have got it second-counselled. Although the advice was correct either way.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: Had a meeting with Seebach where we discussed that if we'd known she'd responded like that, we'd have got it second-counselled. Although the advice was correct either way.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: 8 Mar 2019 email to Seebach about Masterton. Handwritten notes that 'we may need to discuss how we handle DHS cases from now on. Was comfortable with Musolino, but now not sure who is handling these matters', signed 'K. Campbell'
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
METZ: It's in the context of the litigation being filed, case management, sent to Campbell, she annotated and then forwarded to me. I was quite frustrated at the time, I know Mr. Ffrench and I thought the comments from Ms. Campbell were unjustified.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: And you thought the draft CU advice had relevance to Masterton?
METZ: I did.
G: You recall the meeting, Ms. Campbell was present?
M: Yes.
G: What do you recall of the Masterton discussion at that meeting?
M: There was none.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I did.
G: You recall the meeting, Ms. Campbell was present?
M: Yes.
G: What do you recall of the Masterton discussion at that meeting?
M: There was none.
#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: Why was that?
METZ: She wanted to discuss who was responsible for litigation at DHS. I assumed it was expressing her lack of confidence in how Masterton was being managed, but she never mentioned it.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: She wanted to discuss who was responsible for litigation at DHS. I assumed it was expressing her lack of confidence in how Masterton was being managed, but she never mentioned it.
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GREGGERY: Including your involvement?
METZ: I had visibility but wasn't involved in managing it, it's possible she had a view of my involvement but didn't say anything.
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METZ: I had visibility but wasn't involved in managing it, it's possible she had a view of my involvement but didn't say anything.
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METZ: The only thing I mentioned was that matters brought against office of DSS Secretary weren't being brought against her personally. She said 'well that's me'. I don't think she appreciated the distinction, and felt personally exposed by the litigation.
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METZ: I was then offered a role elsewhere, which was odd. In a branch that did a variety of non-legal functions, relating to disability employment, other policy functions. Managing International Day of Disability celebrations, etc.
GREGGERY: Did you want to leave?
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GREGGERY: Did you want to leave?
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METZ: I'd worked my entire career to get where I was. SES are required to put in career development plans, I specifically included I wanted to stay.
GREGGERY: How did you take the request to move?
M: I thought there must be some kind of other motivating factor.
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GREGGERY: How did you take the request to move?
M: I thought there must be some kind of other motivating factor.
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METZ: Subsequently had it confirmed that Campbell's preference was for Paul Menzies-McVey to manage the LSB. Seebach told me, he was quite upset about it.
GREGGERY: Did you feel able to decline?
M: I said I was being told to leave, others agreed with me.
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GREGGERY: Did you feel able to decline?
M: I said I was being told to leave, others agreed with me.
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METZ: The words used were 'you need to get out of corporate'.
GREGGERY: Recall the tone?
M: It was to encourage me very strongly to leave. Implication that if I made it difficult, there would be consequences.
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GREGGERY: Recall the tone?
M: It was to encourage me very strongly to leave. Implication that if I made it difficult, there would be consequences.
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GREGGERY: Menzies-McVey wasn't in a practicing legal role at the time?
METZ: No.
G: You say you've never seen such turnover in the SES as under Secretary Campbell's leadership. What is a 'Section 26' transfer?
M: Privately moved between Departments, no job ads.
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METZ: No.
G: You say you've never seen such turnover in the SES as under Secretary Campbell's leadership. What is a 'Section 26' transfer?
M: Privately moved between Departments, no job ads.
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GREGGERY: Who did you observe to be the subject of Section 26 transfers?
METZ: A number of people, counsel.
G: You say the lack of an open, merits-based process resulted in a significant proportion of hand-picked, loyal SES in leadership group informing Campbell.
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METZ: A number of people, counsel.
G: You say the lack of an open, merits-based process resulted in a significant proportion of hand-picked, loyal SES in leadership group informing Campbell.
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METZ: I had nothing against a Section 26. But it was an unusual number.
GREGGERY: You seem emotionally affected by this?
M: The culture at DSS was very difficult. There were SES officers Campbell became frustrated with. People like me tended to go under the radar.
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GREGGERY: You seem emotionally affected by this?
M: The culture at DSS was very difficult. There were SES officers Campbell became frustrated with. People like me tended to go under the radar.
#RobodebtRC
METZ: I don't think it was personal, I just believed that Campbell preferred Menzies-McVey for that job, rather than being personally unhappy with me.
[Melanie Metz is excused.]
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[Melanie Metz is excused.]
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HOLMES: [giving an incredible speech about the lack of traditional media interest and value of social media and thanking me personally so I didn't transcribe.]
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
Now over to Justin Greggery KC for his closing remarks.
Holmes observes that Professor Whiteford has non-traditionally produced the final report requested of him, with no invoice.
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Holmes observes that Professor Whiteford has non-traditionally produced the final report requested of him, with no invoice.
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GREGGERY: This is the final day of public hearings, however there may be more oral evidence given. The issues are necessarily complex, the Letters Patent is lengthy, and the oral evidence enormous.
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GREGGERY: The Office of the Australian Information Commissioner declined to give a statement and oral evidence, but produced a submission.
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[CW: suicide]
GREGGERY: The number of persons who committed suicide is a question that has not yet received evidence, but it will be assessed as to how far that can be determined on the data available from the Department.
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GREGGERY: The number of persons who committed suicide is a question that has not yet received evidence, but it will be assessed as to how far that can be determined on the data available from the Department.
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GREGGERY: The Commonwealth has not waived Legal Professional Privilege as relating to their involvement in litigation.
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GREGGERY: A number of people gave evidence to the impacts on their lives and the difficulty of the bureaucracy, including those who received Robodebts.
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GREGGERY: A number of the legal advices accurately identified the problems with the unlawfulness of averaging and the accuracy of averaged debts, including amongst the height of scrutiny of the scheme.
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GREGGERY: Over a million documents have been produced, and over 100 witnesses, and nothing has resulted in any narrative that is contrary to those advices.
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GREGGERY: A phrase that averaging could be used as a 'last resort', the constant assertion that the way the debts were assessed hadn't changed. Justice Murphy in the class action that it should have been obvious to senior public servants.
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GREGGERY: He also said it was difficult to prove awareness of Ministers, in relation to a negligence claim. The Commission has raised questions about the Expenditure Review Committee, whether those who advanced the proposal did so knowingly in some way.
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GREGGERY: We have a great deal more evidence, that hasn't yet closed. But a high-level chronology has emerged. The way DHS conducted data-matching before gives rise to a possible finding that there was a significant change in the operation of the scheme.
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GREGGERY: [Detailing DSS identification of issues in proposal by Mr. Kimber, who foreshadowed legal advice] 2014 advice was provided to senior public servants. The fundamental assumption that recipients earned income equally on fortnight was not based in evidence.
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GREGGERY: The proposal seems to have gathered steam again when Morrison became Social Services Minister, evidence demonstrates he met wit Secretary Campbell and Minister's Chief of Staff Wann, drew his excitement.
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GREGGERY: Each iteration of the draft proposal to Payne contained the issue of legislative change. Serena Wilson of DSS expressed her concerns. 'Happy to be conviced otherwise, but would need strong advice'. The dot points in response has seen repeated screen-time.
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GREGGERY: Morrison's interview with Graeme Richardson on Sky News. Morrison said 'on average, Australians are working one month a year to pay for benefits'. 'They won't cop people trying to rort the system like they won't cop people on boats'.
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GREGGERY: Soon after that, Ms. Golightly forwarded the interview to Campbell, and they met with DSS Secretary Finn Pratt, 'tough welfare cop' noted, then with Musolino, 'crackdown' was noted.
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GREGGERY: Noted legislative change would be required, but no references to averaging or smoothing. Golightly and Wilson met to resolve any remaining issues regarding the proposal. No contemporaneous note of the DHS/DSS meeting that followed is available.
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GREGGERY: An email later in the week was that it remained unclear, and that should be noted in the proposal. Kimber recalled the meeting in an email years later that he was given some assurance there would be no change. A new version of the NPP was the circulated.
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GREGGERY: The draft with track changes removed language that legislation was required, 'no change' inserted. On the face of the document, it didn't convey that legislative change was required. References to averaging or smoothing had been removed.
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GREGGERY: That version of the NPP was then cleared by Human Services Minister Payne, and exposure drafts compiled for the Portfolio Budget Submission. There are records of briefings for Payne and Secretary Campbell, in the lead up to the ERC meeting.
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GREGGERY: Ms. Campbell accepted in her evidence that the NPP was apt to mislead anyone who read it. The costings were not accepted by the Department of Finance, who expressed their reservations on the return of significant savings to the Budget. Measure was approved.
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GREGGERY: Advice sought by Ms. McGuirk in respect of the pilot scheme that averaging could be used as a 'last resort'. 60% of people who received letters in the pilot did not respond. A draft brief suggested those recipients accepted the debts, without any basis to.
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GREGGERY: At some point a decision was made not to provide the draft brief to the Secretary. The scheme then began, which produced criticisms in the media in late 2016. DSS provided briefs to Porter and number of others that averaging could be part of the program.
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GREGGERY: Barry Jackson's evidence was his first awareness of problems of the scheme was through the media, on his second day as Acting Secretary. He made a request for a report on a Significant Legal Issue. This would have resulted in scrutiny of legal services.
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GREGGERY: When this was presented to Menzies-McVey and Musolino on their return, they represented there was no significant legal issue. Ms. Musolino has denied this conversation ever took place. There is significant inconsistency between evidence on this issue.
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GREGGERY: Lawyers within DSS were then circulating draft instructions for the Australian Government Solicitor. There is conflicting evidence as to whether Mr. Jackson made Secretary Campbell aware of this on her return from leave.
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GREGGERY: Following the Ombudsman's notification of their inquiry, DHS/DSS met in advance of meeting Omb. Everyone who attended that meeting from DSS gave evidence that the way averaging was being used contradicted the position they'd given in writing.
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GREGGERY: There was then a meeting between Ms. McGuirk and Ms. Pulford which subsequently her 2017 (highly qualified) 'last resort' advice. Musolino then sent her 'don't scare the horses' email. Mr. Fiveash sent his email that averaging couldn't be used fortnightly.
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#RobodebtRC
GREGGERY: There's a factual dispute between Maris Stipnieks and Ms. Musolino as to what happened to that advice.
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GREGGERY: A significant amount of evidence related to interactions between DHS/DSS and the Ombudsman. Requests for legal advice only produced the 2014/2017 Pulford advice, in subsequent request relating to the need for legislative change as Omb. found Executive Min.
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GREGGERY: Inconsistency between the assertions made to the Ombudsman and what was known will need to be assessed by you, Commissioner. DHS inserted language into Ombudsman's report, which was then relied upon by various persons, including DHS 2016-17 Annual Report.
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GREGGERY: Evidence from Mr. Glenn this week was that DHS representatives and Minister had pushed back publicly on criticism of the scheme. His evidence raises the question as to what basis the Department had to make those assertions, based on the documents they had.
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GREGGERY: The Commission will need to consider what recommendations should be made regarding the Ombudsman's office.
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GREGGERY: There doesn't appear to be a significant body of evidence that DHS sought advice from DSS on how to respond to adverse AAT decisions.
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GREGGERY: DHS engaged PwC and Data61 to examine aspects of the scheme. Evidence concluded that no final report was provided by PwC, although an extensive draft had reached a near-concluded state. The question of why it wasn't delivered remains live.
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GREGGERY: The scheme received mounting academic criticism by July 2017 at the AIAL conference. Presentation made by Peter Hanks was summarised, sent to Musolino and Secretary Campbell, who acknowledged it. Why legal advice wasn't then sought has to be addressed.
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GREGGERY: Prof. Terry Carney published his paper on leaving the AAT and his criticisms were identified within the legal services of DSS. External legal advice then sought from Clayton Utz concluded that averaging wasn't lawful. It was paid for, but never finalised.
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GREGGERY: Ombudsman then took up the question of lawfulness of averaging in preparing their 2019 report. There were confident assertions made about lawfulness. Masterton proceedings commenced, draft advice obtained from AGS in Mar 2019, prospects weren't hopeless.
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GREGGERY: The commencement of those proceedings caused DHS to brief the Solicitor-General. That led to consent orders in the Amato case, and a resolution of the Masterton proceedings leading to Minister Robert announcing the end of the scheme.
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GREGGERY: There are conflicting versions, particularly between Secretary Leon and Minister Robert, about the nature and timing of the response.
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GREGGERY: There are now over 5,000 pages of transcript from over 100 witnesses. In terms of the recommendations to be made to ensure this doesn't occur again - all of the potential interventions, regulatory and non-regulatory, failed to end the scheme.
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GREGGERY: Many advocacy groups, legal aid and community legal organisations, the CPSU, ACOSS, Economic Justice Australia, all made representations to Ministers. These will greatly inform our appraisal of the appropriateness of responses by the Department.
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GREGGERY: Our analysis will continue over the remaining duration of our work. Procedural fairness will need to be offered to various people. A number of items we will tender administratively. I wish to express my gratitude to everyone who has assisted the Commission.
#RobodebtRC
#RobodebtRC
HOLMES: At that, I think we will close this hearing.
[All rise, the Royal Commission is adjourned.]
H: I believe it is CLOSED.
#RobodebtRC
[All rise, the Royal Commission is adjourned.]
H: I believe it is CLOSED.
#RobodebtRC
Thank you to Commissioner Holmes for her tireless work and her example to all of us. It was very kind of her to recognise me.
Thanks for the overwhelming replies, messages and calls in the past hour or so.
I've checked in upstairs, and I'm watching the cricket.
#RobodebtRC
Thanks for the overwhelming replies, messages and calls in the past hour or so.
I've checked in upstairs, and I'm watching the cricket.
#RobodebtRC
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