Thread by @lukehgomes

Today is the last day of hearings for the #robodebtrc. The first witness is former Centrelink employee Taren Preston.

Will tweet where I can!

Preston, a social worker at Centrelink, says it was standard when people came in to discuss a robodebt that she conducted a "suicide risk assessment"

Preston says her advice was sometimes met with "scorn". There was a culture shift that accompanied robodebt debt

Preston started her day earlier to be on hand to chat with staff. Staff would be in tears before the Centrelink doors opened for the day.

Preston says she feels she suffered a "moral injury" by working in the system. The system was about "deserving and undeserving poor". She describes a moral injury as being made to do work that was hurting people

The wonderfully brave Kath Madgwick is the next witness. Her son, Jarrad, died by suicide on 30 May 2019 after interactions with Centrelink

Madgwick says Jarrad gave her lots of proud moments, he was good at sport and had academic achievements. They were close

Jarrad called his mum in April 2019. He'd broken up with his girlfriend, was being bullied at work and had become homeless in Wodonga. He wanted to return home to Madgwick on the Sunshine Coast

Magdwick says she noticed Jarrad was distressed. Had been living in his car.

Here is a DHS timeline of Jarrad's interactions

Jarrad had been applying for Newstart. On 30May 2019, towards the end of the day, he learned that:
"Now I'm not going to get paid because I owe them $2000." Content warning for what will come next.

Madgwick says the first time she heard of the debt was that afternoon.

After some arguments with Kath, Jarrad left the home at about 6.45pm

A few days earlier Jarrad was dealing with a Centrelink robodebt discrepancy letter

Jarrad's debt was calculated using the payslips he'd provided

Content warning.
Madgwick thought Jarrad had gone to cool off. Jarrad messaged saying " I love you." She thought he'd cooled off. Jarrad wasn't home when she woke up the next morning

She noticed he'd left wallet at home. Kath called the police.

The police rang the following morning. They said they hadn't started looking yet. So Kath started. "I can't wait for you to start looking."

So much admiration for Kath's bravery in telling this story.

Serious content warning for what comes next

Madgwick found Jarrad's body in the park. "I saw his beautiful face."

Madgwick was blaming herself because of the argument.

Another timeline according to DHS

Since Jarrad's passing Madgwick wrote to a lot of people to get answers about what happened. She emailed Stuart Robert on 9 June 2019. Didn't get a response

Also wrote to Scott Morrison. No response.

Madgwick went to Nine News's Emily McPherson because "no one was listening to me"

Like Jenny Miller, Madgwick was stonewalled by DHS. She was told his file included personal details that couldn't be released. It was her son.

Sensible, thoughtful recommendations from Kath Madgwick. "People who have no income and are already under immense pressure should not be delivered a debt until they are in receipt of an income."

Jarrad's last post on social media was: "Free will is an illusion that inhibits us from correcting the system, instead punishing people that are products of their environment." Magdwick says that sums up what's been uncovered here.

Kath Madgwick thanks Bill Shorten and Anthony Albanese for holding the royal commission and "standing by their promise... I feel that I'll be able to finally get on and grieve for my son without the confusion in my mind."

Holmes thanks Madgwick for her evidence. So do I.

Former DHS deputy legal counsel John Barnett is the next witness

John Barnett was involved in the draft instructions for AGS in 2017. This is while Campbell and Musolino are on leave. He's asked what happened (they weren't sent). Barnett says he doesn't know (and didn't ask).

"I wasn't disinterested", but may have been something he didn't enquire about

Barnett is asked if Glyn Fiveash was a subject matter expert on social security law. He speaks for about two minutes without saying one way or another.

Barnett says he wasn't aware Fiveash had provided advice on averaging (which was negative)

DHS Glyn Fiveash (who warned income averaging was a no go in 2017) with quite the claimed anecdote about Kathryn Campbell. "The first thing Ms Campbell would always ask was 'what is the legal basis for doing this?'"

Ha Fiveash a bit of a straight shooter. Says DHS lawyer Maris Stipnieks would write legal advice on "social security maters I know he had no idea about and was actually wrong advice but because he thought it was important, he thought he should handle it himself."

Hmmm... Fiveash now saying he didn't know averaging was actually being used. Doesn't know if he learned that until 2019

Melanie Metz, a former lawyer at DHS and DSS, recounting two instances she says Kathryn Campbell expressed dissatisfaction with legal advice shown to her. (Not relating to robodebt)

In one instance, Metz says Campbell had told her she "preferred" a junior internal opinion over one provided by an external senior counsel.

Metz says in a 26 March 2019 Campbell expressed concerns about distrust in DHS, and the way litigation was being handled (Metz assumed this meant the Masterton case). Metz claims Campbell felt exposed - because she was DHS secretary when robodebt started

On 18 April Metz was approached by a dep sec and said she'd been identified for a role in another branch... She didn't have an existing relationship with that dep sec and found it deeply weird.

Metz says she'd been working her whole career to get to that role she'd had in the legal services division. "I thought there must have been some other motivating factor..."

Metz was told that it was Campbell's "preference" that Paul Menzies-McVey manage legal services.

Metz says she was told if she didn't swap roles her life would be difficult and there "would be consequences"

Greggery: What is upsetting you Ms Metz?
Metz: The culture at DSS was a very difficult one. There were SES officers that Ms Campbell favoured, there were SES officers that she became frustrated with.

That was very atmospheric evidence.

Wow! Holmes with some closing remarks. "The interest of what I'll call the traditional media, to distinguish it from social media, in this hearings, has with some honourable exceptions been patchy."

Holmes: It tends to flare when an ex minister is on the stand. There may be sound commercial reasons for that, the subject matter doesn't concern the demographic which they cater to, or the issues are too many and the evidence too extensive and complicated...

Holmes: "I'm not and will never be on Twitter. But the commission's media office has drawn attention to some of the Twitter commentary and I've been struck by how committed and serious some of the people tweeting [are]."

Holmes: They provide an almost full time running summary of the evidence with occasional comment. Some of them are people who've long been engaged in the robodebt issue. And they both tweet and cross over into mainstream commentary.

Holmes: I'm thinking of people like
@DarrenODonovan, and @SquigglyRick and [me], I may have mangled his name [wasn't a bad effort], while others.

Holmes: I can see one right in front of me (has to be the relentless @maximumwelfare) are new to the subject but no less intent on conveying what is occurring in these hearings.

Holmes: Now I hasten to say I don't agree with every privacy or characterisation of the evidence but I want to acknowledge the Twitter coverage of these hearings has performance a remarkably useful and important public service.... Having said that, over to you Mr Greggery.

Justin Greggery KC starts his closing by saying these are observations, not submissions to Holmes.

Greggery calls out witnesses who've given evidence, including Colleen Taylor, and recipients of alleged robodebts. "Their accounts have been particularly telling about the human toll and the apparent impenetrable bureaucracy ..."

Greggery says there have been over 100 witnesses and more than 8000 exhibits (of more than 1m documents).

Greggery says the "last resort" defence was a "convenient phrase"

Greggery calls out Justice Murphy's "stuff up not a conspiracy" line in his judgment, notes the context of his comments, but adds: "The evidence before the commission raises a genuine question about the knowledge of those involved in the generation of the scheme."

Greggery walks through the old system, then says the "evidence before the commission gives rise to a potential finding that the scheme represented a marked shift from their process".

Greggery walking through the chronology. I'll do my best here. Notes the June 2014 minute from Ryman and Britton is one of the earliest versions.

Proposal goes to DSS in November 2014. DSS identify flaws. And then the DSS legal advice of December

Greggery: "The proposal appears to have gathered momentum again in late December."

Greggery really putting Morrison in the narrative here. He notes Morrison's welfare cop interview on Sky. He says Campbell and Golightly noted the proposal

And Greggery points out Finn Pratt's handwritten notes of his meeting with Serena Wilson and Morrison includes the phrase "welfare cop"

Some key dates. Proposal apparently discussed by Malisa Golightly and Wilson on 25 Feb, key meeting between DHS and DSS on 27 Feb.

Afterwards (after DSS claim DHS assure no averaging), Ryman changes the NPP to say no change to way debts were raised.

The NPP approved by Payne on 3 March.

Greggery says Kathryn Campbell accepted how the NPP explained the proposal to the ERC on 25 March was capable of misleading them.

The pilot in May and June showed 60% of recipients weren't engaging. Brief prepared for Campbell but never sent.

Online component of the scheme started in about mid 2016.

In 2017, Barry Jackson is secretary with Campbell on leave. She returns 9 Jan.

Musolino and office of legal services coordination in dispute about what was said. Musolino denies a conversation where she tells OLSC that robodebt is legal, after OLSC raises concerns

Greggery notes the conflicting evidence between Jackson and Campbell about Jackson's call to seek legal advice (via AGS in the end). This didn't happen, and commissioner will need to find why. Campbell claims she was never informed.

"One of the factual questions for the commission to resolve is what happened to the draft advice. That is, why it was not progressed." Greggery says.

To the 15 Jan meeting between DHS and DSS (when DSS claim they were shocked to learn about averaging) then meeting with the ombudsman on 16 Jan.

24 Jan email between Golightly and Musolino points to @knausc yarn on Slater and Gordon looking into legality. Golightly says they may need to look at external advice but don't want to "scare the horses". (No advice sought.)

To the ombudsman's investigation - DHS/DSS informed on 4 Jan 2017.

I really should have started a new thread for this.

Finn Pratt's assertion to Ombo the scheme was in line with legislative requirements appeared inconsistent with information known to officials. Holmes will need to determine this, says Greggery

A bit of a marker from Greggery - he says Holmes will need to consider whether ombudsman erred in not raising legal issues, referring to AAT, and whether "findings or recommendations will be made" on the Ombudsman

Greggery says it's an open question why the PWC report was not completed

Greggery says it appears no steps taken in response to Peter Hanks QC's July 2017 speech on robodebt. Campbell and others aware

Greggery calls out the Carney article also - reported by Chris and Paul Karp in April 2018

Greggery notes the Clayton Utz was broadly in line with the Carney and Hanks criticisms. As you probably know, that external draft advice was not finalised.

Greggery moves to Masterton. He says the decision to recalculate the Masterton debt to zero was likely motivated by the desire to have the court not rule on the matter

Greggery - Masterton led to DHS and DSS getting SG advice, which needed the scheme. He notes conflicting evidence between Robert and Renee Leon.

Greggery winding up here. Notes the public hearings are not the only part of their work

Greggery turns to the terms of reference - and what could be done stop this happening again.

Greggery notes: "all of the various regulatory and even non regulatory potential interventions which could have been undertaken to identify flaws and bright about at least a pause ... failed to have that effect."

Greggery says commissioner will have regard to civil society - which called out the scheme including ACOSS, VLA, EJA, CPSU members and individuals

Greggery says it will likely necessary to afford procedural fairness to those facing possible adverse findings. They will be given notice of this and be given notice to appear

Greggery thanks those working with the commission, including Commonwealth

And we're done.

Thanks to all that have followed. Well done to the commissioner, counsel, and mostly importantly all the victims who got on the stand. I'm not sure how you did it. Thank you.

I'm not sure where I got privacy from there but clearly it was a different word...