Thread by @MuiRebekah

What modest fashion influencers on Instagram fail to realize is that they are marketing their bodies too, what they mock & shame other women for doing. Their specific brand caters to those who salivate over virgin youthfulness & long to possess & devour.

@ineedanothernap The primary definition of modesty among evangelicals has become what conveys a certain message that they claim the first from that of women who are "asking" to be assaulted. Modesty is taught as protection when in reality it is exploitation.

@ineedanothernap Such as this illustration buy a focus on the family author who says that women dress a certain way are advertising themselves as "free milk"

@ineedanothernap The way that modesty culture treats the body is in fact very immoral and in line with pornography. But if it has nothing to do with you then that's fine.

@ineedanothernap People who are aware about issues of sexual abuse as my close friends are will know that what is taught about modesty (that the purpose is to prevent lust/promote or project purity) is a lie that enables sexual abuse & excuses immorality.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 The majority of the world however, believes that women classify themselves as sexually available or not available based on their clothes, and that someone who is dressed "modestly" Will not be assaulted but someone who is not dress modestly is asking to be assaulted.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 This is the root of the issue. If you believe that you can dress in such a way that you will never be assaulted or that is completely pure, that is a sad and self-condemning state. If you cover your shoulders someone will lust over your elbows. The main issue, lust, is avoided.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 The gospel invites us into a new transformative relationship with the body that isn't about judging or about possessing. It is about respecting. This means that you won't go around judging other women as being sexual or inappropriate but view them as Jesus does.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 If you were to visit a culture where men wear loincloths or women don't cover their navels or are topless, you wouldn't judge them as being sexually immoral. In fact, we don't even judge men in speedos as being "loose" because perception is all in the eye of the beholder.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 If you are judging others as promoting lust or striving not to promote lust, the sad reality is that you could be literally cloaked head to toe & sexual immorality still exists. Modesty culture actively condones sexual immorality.

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@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 This is not a radical extreme. Literally every evangelical teaching on modesty out there is promoting the idea that it can prevent lust or that you should dress so that your brothers don't sin. This is the baseline common definition that is the basis of rape culture in society.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Secondly, in no scenario can you police these women and what they wear. Maybe you can try to live in a bubble where you never interact with anyone outside of a fundamentalist church. Otherwise you can't dictate to them what they should wear.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Thirdly, fashion today does exploit the human body. I bet you would feel totally differently based on the weight & body type of the women. Even if someone is within the culture that makes then feel body shamed etc. or pressured to look a certain way,

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 As Christians we can choose to look at people with respect. We can choose not to fall into the same trap that an exploitative culture or an exploitative fashion industry is selling. We can choose to interact as human beings.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 You're talking about a church pool party. So many girls of different sizes have left churches entirely because they were targeted by the culture, not even because of what they wore, but because how their curves were perceived. It is a very subjective & biased judgment.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Certain body types at targeted as inherently more immodest than others. So let's saw a woman has breathtakingly beautiful hair, a smile, an attractive body in a dress that isn't necessarily revealing. The "modesty" attitude would see her beauty as a threat anyway.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Then, those in modesty culture will try to curtail her attractiveness by telling her that she is in modest because of an accidental glance of the knee. Or dress that flatters her waist. Then she will always feel like she needs to make herself ugly or be a threat to men.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Because you have already had an exploitative view of the female body to begin with. You have viewed her as an alluring threat to men and to your husband. You have cast her in the role of a sexually immoral seductress & when someone hurts her, she gets the blame.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 *men at the pool party wearing shorts

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 If you want to draw the line at the bikini for yourself, do that. Another person is going to judge you for showing your shoulders. Or your knees, elbows, face. There is no universal standard & the goal post will always keep changing, always something to blame as "sexual".

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Women are going to be blamed for having a nice smile. For wearing their hair down. For having curly hair. For having straight hair. There is literally no end to this if you think your line that you're drawing is the ultimate correct one that defines modesty.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 And like do we have this debate over drinking coffee or tea, or going to Kroger's or Walmart? Does God micromanage details of our life so that we agonize over which minute decision is more honoring or not?

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 I would go more by what I feel comfortable wearing according to what suits my body type and fit. I don't believe in being pressured either way to have a beach body and show it off or like the Duggar girls to wear full length pantaloons.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Taking away someone's choice from them or making a value judgment about them (you're a w*****) is deeply vulgar. Pressuring someone to wear a micro bikini is no different from pressuring them to wear a burkini (or not wear one).

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 The belief that certain clothing signals to the world that a woman is available for any and all sexual behavior is rape culture and victim blaming.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 The scenario you pose simply doesn't exist because women very decently covered having label and treated as "prostitutes" in church culture. The only reason this designation exists is to blame victims of assault.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 You can be perceived as a prostitute and having deserved it because you are at the wrong place, your bus was delayed and you had to walk home late. This is the reality we live in.

"What did you wear?" Is the first question we ask assault victims.

Stop. This is evil.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 This is normative statement. If you have a definition of what is "modest" in your mind, you are making a value judgment about all women who wear that clothing. And furthermore, what makes a Christian more human or worthy of respect than a non Christian?

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 The very line of argument that you are using for this one specific extreme example is what is universal common not only in church culture but also throughout different cultures in the world. Maybe you haven't really seen that & still defend this argument as a result.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 I am saying that unless someone literally like that woman grabs you by that neck and says I want to have sex, nothing she wears means that she is asking for anything or wants anything. It does not say a single thing about her choice or sexuality.

Consent matters. Always ask.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 The minute that I say one piece of clothing defines someone as a prostitute, I will have nothing to say to those who say showing my eyes or face or elbows defines me as a worthless w****. It's the same argument and justification and logic. I will never do that.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 This is also why in church culture the concept of consent is so alien. We go around labeling people as prostitutes. We draw the line between Madonna and w****, those who deserve respect and don't, those who have worth & don't. This is the point of the whole post.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 This line that we draw between worth and worthlessness needs to stop. I have a very broad experience with evangelical counter and many clothes shaming cultures around the world. I have examined a broad range of literature and I know what the culture & why sexual abuse is common.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Studies have shown that higher beliefs in rape culture myths such as that clothing defines a woman's sexual availability actually increases the incidence of rape.

This is on college campuses, in the secular media, in devotionals, in youth groups. A disease.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Purity rings, modesty messages etc. are sexualizing women as much as a
micro bikini is. Why? Because sexualization is not a specific clothing, it is a mindset, perception, and ideology.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Elisabeth Elliot, for example, sexualizes female virginity as the sum of her worth and the ultimate gift that she gives to her husband. In doing so, she is sexualizing girls as much as the fashion industry is.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 This is like a textbook example of rape culture and I have repeated myself plenty of time so I'm going to end this conversation here.

I am seriously concerned though about beliefs like yours and how they enable sexual violence.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Because you're promoting of rosy and uninformed view of some kind of perfect modesty culture as existing, there are probably many women's voices right now who are being silenced. I'm not going to quiet about that fact because I believe the stakes are very high.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 There is a fundamental line of definition as well. There's nothing about the line that you draw that scripture defines as modest/nonsexual. Someone can easily come along and define you as immodest. It doesn't matter to me what you wear or don't, btw.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 If you want, outline exactly where you draw the line & construct your rules of modesty. Then show the exact scriptures that define for example where that specific length of dress is modest but one inch shorter isn't. In biblical times, it probably wouldn't have been?

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 See this is what gets me about women who claim that modesty is about respect. It's about defining their own personal worth based on judging other women as having less worthy. "I respect MY body" indicates that the other person does not & is less respectable.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 There is a lot of obfustication of language going on here, but care to define exact "what" someone's clothing says about them?

That they're a "prostitute", as you have said before?

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Let's say you choose personally to wear a micro bikini to the beach. What does this signify in term of motive/message?

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 *an inaccurate interpretation

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 I guess the conclusion is that you're backing behind a quote from scripture to say that "God says" a micro-bikini or equivalent clothing is the attire of a harlot and labels a woman a harlot & someone with immoral motives.

Which I knew you were saying all along.

@janefortruth @JaneLebak @briannaisbanned To me, fidelity is about making choices in the here and now based on commitment to one's spouse and to what one believes about marriage. So I believe it is always about the choice that we make in the moment and nothing to do with our status/past.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 The refusal to explicitly say out loud what you think and assume about a woman in the micro bikini and her motives while hinting heavily that "God shames" them as dressed in prostitute's clothing says quite a lot. This could be put into a document and outlined word by word.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Obfusticating what was explicitly said is something quite common in evangelicalism and what I find in evangelical texts all the time. Someone can say, "I didn't say that" but in fact, it can be shown that they did. But anyway, it's detailed conceptual work that must be done.

@ineedanothernap @Phirah79 Since you mentioned micro bikinis and also that a piece of clothing "reflects" them, just tell me what you think a micro bikini reflects about a woman's character.

That's all.

@copper_teal Some specifc 1950s or Victorian type virgin.

I also know of women who were harassed more in skirts. Not that changing a style of dress can protect us from sexual violence.

@copper_teal The conclusion is really that no matter what you do, that will be somebody who will want to violate your boundaries and autonomy.

@copper_teal I often use the example of sexual abuse and fetishization of Amish children because the assumption is that if you dress more like that, you are safer. No, there are in fact specifically predators who go into those communities and target young women.