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LIVE TRIAL THREAD:
Final arguments in a disciplinary trial for Amy Hamm, a BC Nurse, mother of 2 & activist has begun.
The @BCnursemidwife’s counsel argued that Hamm’s advocacy for safe spaces for women & girls equates to advocacy against trans peoples existence
Follow along👇🏾
Final arguments in a disciplinary trial for Amy Hamm, a BC Nurse, mother of 2 & activist has begun.
The @BCnursemidwife’s counsel argued that Hamm’s advocacy for safe spaces for women & girls equates to advocacy against trans peoples existence
Follow along👇🏾
2) The matter is before a panel of 3.
Panelists are posing questions for clarity to the counsel for the college who gave their closing arguments yesterday.
For a summary of this arguments you can click on the links below rebelnews.com/live_updates_f…
Panelists are posing questions for clarity to the counsel for the college who gave their closing arguments yesterday.
For a summary of this arguments you can click on the links below rebelnews.com/live_updates_f…
3) Lisa Bildy, one of two sharp lawyers hired to defend Hamm against her college by the @JCCFCanada is now up!
She’s starting off strong.
Photo of Hamm’s counsel:
Lisa Bildy ( @LDBildy ) on the left and Karen Bastow on the right.
Hearing link: bccnm.ca/Public/complai…
She’s starting off strong.
Photo of Hamm’s counsel:
Lisa Bildy ( @LDBildy ) on the left and Karen Bastow on the right.
Hearing link: bccnm.ca/Public/complai…
@JCCFCanada @LDBildy 4) Bildy to the panel:
The college wants you to assume that it is perfectly normal for it to legitimize public complaints by activists and put a registered nurse on trial for her opinions
It is not.
The college wants you to assume that it is perfectly normal for it to legitimize public complaints by activists and put a registered nurse on trial for her opinions
It is not.
@JCCFCanada @LDBildy 5)Bildy says it is important to understand the social context in which Hamm’s statements were made which is relevant to their tone social value and the good faith intentions behind them
Says this is a “ highly unusual disciplinary case” because it’s not linked to on duty conduct
Says this is a “ highly unusual disciplinary case” because it’s not linked to on duty conduct
@JCCFCanada @LDBildy 6) Bildy cont’d:
The college has no business, no legal authority, statutory mandate to decide which side of a sociopolitical debate its registrants are allowed to be on.
The college has no business, no legal authority, statutory mandate to decide which side of a sociopolitical debate its registrants are allowed to be on.
@JCCFCanada @LDBildy 7) Bildy says the college’s labeling Hamm as discriminatory, transphobic or a risk to vulnerable health services for espousing one side of a necessary debate and being her to trail for such is “wholly inappropriate in this case should be dismissed on this basis alone.”
@JCCFCanada @LDBildy 8) Bildy references the evidence that was brought forward with relevant cases from Canada,the US & the UK and mentions that the UK is “further ahead of us” on the curve.
A recent example is below ie. England has halted puberty blocking RX’s for minors.
rebelnews.com/england_halts_…
A recent example is below ie. England has halted puberty blocking RX’s for minors.
rebelnews.com/england_halts_…
@JCCFCanada @LDBildy 9) Bildy also mentions how the College’s self proclaimed “old white queer cisgender” lawyer, Barbara Findlay did not present such cases and that the college tried very hard to not have any of Hamm’s expert witnesses be heard.
10) Bildy says she was alarmed by the College’s submissions yesterday.
“I was tempted to throw up my prepared submissions and just say, what was that? Whats the end game here?”
“I was tempted to throw up my prepared submissions and just say, what was that? Whats the end game here?”
11) Bildy cont’d:
Do you remember in my opening submissions which was sprinkled with the phrase “women's rights are not transphobic?”
Well, we heard it yesterday.
Women’s rights are transphobic.
Do you remember in my opening submissions which was sprinkled with the phrase “women's rights are not transphobic?”
Well, we heard it yesterday.
Women’s rights are transphobic.
12) Bildy:
Any woman who dares to say that women and girls have rights, needs,
and protections because of their biological sex is discriminating against the most oppressed class of women, males who identify as women
Tell that to the girls and women of Iran and Afghanistan 🎤💥
Any woman who dares to say that women and girls have rights, needs,
and protections because of their biological sex is discriminating against the most oppressed class of women, males who identify as women
Tell that to the girls and women of Iran and Afghanistan 🎤💥
13) Bildy cont’d:
Women in society are not just being asked to make space for trans women to pee, we are being forced to accept and promote gender ideology…
No one can even express any concerns about this because as we heard yesterday, that's transphobic.
Women in society are not just being asked to make space for trans women to pee, we are being forced to accept and promote gender ideology…
No one can even express any concerns about this because as we heard yesterday, that's transphobic.
14) Bildy brings up how BCCNM’s activist lawyer Barbara Findlay (photo below) created a fictional trans character named “Lee” and asked the panelists to imagine themselves as living as Lee.
Findlay kept referring back to this fantasy which she called a “2-part exercise.”
Findlay kept referring back to this fantasy which she called a “2-part exercise.”
15) Bildy:
Ms. Findlay’s little thought exercise was interesting but as you know the panel has to decide cases on the facts before it, not on fantasy and an imaginary litigant.
Ms. Findlay’s little thought exercise was interesting but as you know the panel has to decide cases on the facts before it, not on fantasy and an imaginary litigant.
16) Bildy cont’d:
If the facts were strong enough here to support a finding against Miss Hamm, Ms Findlay wouldn't have to make them up.
* Another🎤💥
If the facts were strong enough here to support a finding against Miss Hamm, Ms Findlay wouldn't have to make them up.
* Another🎤💥
17) Bildy says the college argued that the heart of this case is that its their duty to discipline a registerant for engaging in conduct that is discriminatory towards a marginalized population and contrary to the fundamental values of the nursing profession. “That is incorrect.”
18. Bildy cont’d:
… you won't find that language in the BC Health Professions Act or the jurisprudence under it.
… you won't find that language in the BC Health Professions Act or the jurisprudence under it.
19.
Bildy says the heart of this case is “whether Ms. Hamm’s charter protected off duty expression rises to the level of unprofessional conduct that can justifiably be sanctioned by the regulator.
Bildy says the heart of this case is “whether Ms. Hamm’s charter protected off duty expression rises to the level of unprofessional conduct that can justifiably be sanctioned by the regulator.
20) Bildy says discrimination can’t be relied on as a basis to prosecute Ms. Hamm because “there is no evidence or allegation that she failed to provide service to a transgender person in contravention of Human rights law. nor that she expressed any intention to do so.
21) Bildy: It is an important distinction that Ms. Hamm’s comments are mainly critical of trans activism and gender Ideology.
There is no victim of discrimination here in any meaningful sense of the word.
There is no victim of discrimination here in any meaningful sense of the word.
22) Bildy:
There is no evidence that Ms. Hamm has ever discriminated against transgender people or threatened to do so. This is another red herring.
There is no evidence that Ms. Hamm has ever discriminated against transgender people or threatened to do so. This is another red herring.
23) Bildy brings up the colleges argument that Hamm, has done significant damage to the reputation of the nursing profession and undermined public confidence in the health care system.
24) Bildy says that take isn’t presented in evidence that actually supports this contention.
“It's been 3 and a half years since Ms. Hamm put up that billboard, where is the evidence that she’s caused this significant damage?”
*Billboard info below.
RebelNews.com/i_heart_jk_row…
“It's been 3 and a half years since Ms. Hamm put up that billboard, where is the evidence that she’s caused this significant damage?”
*Billboard info below.
RebelNews.com/i_heart_jk_row…
25) Bildy summarizes some of the case law that’s been discussed through the hearing.
Says according to submissions regulators must tolerate a degree of discordant criticism in a free and democratic society and it should not be taking a side.
Says according to submissions regulators must tolerate a degree of discordant criticism in a free and democratic society and it should not be taking a side.
26) Bildy says the college contradicted itself when asserting that Ms. Hamm is free to say what she wants as long as she doesn't identify as a nurse.
27) Bildy cont’d:
The fact is that professionals do have private lives and merely saying in the introduction to a podcast or in a biographical statement at the bottom of an article that one works as a nurse should not be enough of a nexus to pull 300 pages of tweets…
The fact is that professionals do have private lives and merely saying in the introduction to a podcast or in a biographical statement at the bottom of an article that one works as a nurse should not be enough of a nexus to pull 300 pages of tweets…
28) Bildy cont’d:
…and interviews over several years under the purview of the regulator, especially when there's no meaningful connection between that speech and the profession.
*The BCCNM went on a retroactive witch hunt for Hamm’s online comments.
…and interviews over several years under the purview of the regulator, especially when there's no meaningful connection between that speech and the profession.
*The BCCNM went on a retroactive witch hunt for Hamm’s online comments.
29) Bildy:
There are people who would enthusiastically curtail all the speech that they don't like and we are coming very close to having a protected class of people and surrounding ideology that are almost sacred.
There are people who would enthusiastically curtail all the speech that they don't like and we are coming very close to having a protected class of people and surrounding ideology that are almost sacred.
30) Bildy cont’d:
No criticism is permitted with this growing mindset. It is more important than ever that we don't throw away the protection of speech under the Charter.
No criticism is permitted with this growing mindset. It is more important than ever that we don't throw away the protection of speech under the Charter.
31) Bildy:
…It might be speech we find distasteful today. Tomorrow it will be something you thought was perfectly innocuous.
Unprofessional conduct must not be redefined to include speaking on popular truth.
…It might be speech we find distasteful today. Tomorrow it will be something you thought was perfectly innocuous.
Unprofessional conduct must not be redefined to include speaking on popular truth.
32) Bildy: The further the regulator moves away from regulating professional standards and competence, the more it must demonstrate the existence of an applicable, statutory objective, to balance against its restriction on Charter rights…
33) Bildy cont’d:
… and the more stringently the protection of those rights must be upheld.
… and the more stringently the protection of those rights must be upheld.
34) Bildy addresses the colleges submissions that Hamm’s speech while stating she’s a nurse means that trans people will seek healthcare less.
“This characterization is key to the College's argument that there is a pressing and substantial objective justifying its violation of Ms.Hamm’s Charter rights.”
“This characterization is key to the College's argument that there is a pressing and substantial objective justifying its violation of Ms.Hamm’s Charter rights.”
35) Bildy:
… this characterization is a fig leaf covering its actual purpose, censoring dissenting viewpoints on matters of gender ideology.
… this characterization is a fig leaf covering its actual purpose, censoring dissenting viewpoints on matters of gender ideology.
36) Bildy cont’d: This is not only, not in the public interest but it is also … beyond the powers of their statutory authority and therefore cannot be a pressing and substantial objective.
37) Bildy cont’d:
The Panel may conclude at this stage of the analysis that there is no pressing and substantial objective that warrants infringing Ms. Hamm’s constitutional rights and dismiss the charge.
The Panel may conclude at this stage of the analysis that there is no pressing and substantial objective that warrants infringing Ms. Hamm’s constitutional rights and dismiss the charge.
38) Back after having to break.
Bildy recaps some of the reasons Hamm gave while testifying about how and why she became a women’s and sex-based rights activist.
Bildy recaps some of the reasons Hamm gave while testifying about how and why she became a women’s and sex-based rights activist.
39 ) Bildy mentions Hamm’s volunteer work with Elizabeth Fry and her time on the downtown east side of Vancouver
Hamm had a particular fondness for a transgender client in that community and used preferred pronouns.
Hamm had a particular fondness for a transgender client in that community and used preferred pronouns.
40) Bildy continues with Hamm’s history:
Her concern about marginalized Indigenous women who are over represented in the prison population was one of the motivators for getting involved in the gender issues involving prisons…
Her concern about marginalized Indigenous women who are over represented in the prison population was one of the motivators for getting involved in the gender issues involving prisons…
41) continuing from notes:
Bildy: Amy Hamm became involved in advocating for women sex-based protections around 2016 when she noticed the discourse from extreme online communities was leaking into popular discourse.
Bildy: Amy Hamm became involved in advocating for women sex-based protections around 2016 when she noticed the discourse from extreme online communities was leaking into popular discourse.
42) Bildy cont’d:
She [Hamm] said she was astonished at how women were being told to shut up while talking about their bodies and their experiences if their speech made males who identify as females feel excluded.
She [Hamm] said she was astonished at how women were being told to shut up while talking about their bodies and their experiences if their speech made males who identify as females feel excluded.
43)
Bildy cont’d:
She [Hamm] noticed the transactivists were making increasingly anti scientific claims but the nature of identity and biological sex and how anyone who dared to question this narrative was being labeled a bigot.
Bildy cont’d:
She [Hamm] noticed the transactivists were making increasingly anti scientific claims but the nature of identity and biological sex and how anyone who dared to question this narrative was being labeled a bigot.
44) Bildy: She [Hamm] began writing about the issue and then organizing talks for women to come together to discuss these concerns in Vancouver this made her a target…
45) Bildy says Hamm’s (@preta_6) advocacy put her at risk for countless threats of violence, death and rape simply for wanting to talk about women's sex-based rights.
@preta_6 46) Bildy brings up some of Dr. Cantor’s statements during trial. Cantor ( @JamesCantorPhD ) is a clinical psychologist and sexologist who served be an expert witness for Hamm.
rebelnews.com/live_updates_s…
rebelnews.com/live_updates_s…
47) re: the College’s earlier citation that Hamm spread medical misinformation, (a charge which has now been rescinded), Bildy says Doctor Cantor testified to not recalling there being any contradictions between what Hamm said with anything that has been scientifically established.
48) Bildy: We say that her comments were squarely within the range of rational and reasonable public debate.
The College asserts in its submissions …that the Ms. Hamm’s comments must be understood in light of the population they were directed toward…
The College asserts in its submissions …that the Ms. Hamm’s comments must be understood in light of the population they were directed toward…
49) Bildy:
First of all her [Hamm] comments were directed toward advocacy for the rights, safety, and dignity of women and children, to the public at large and to the the policy makers.
* in other words not aimed at specific transgender people.
First of all her [Hamm] comments were directed toward advocacy for the rights, safety, and dignity of women and children, to the public at large and to the the policy makers.
* in other words not aimed at specific transgender people.
50) Re: the College’s submissions that Hamm’s statements that Hamm’s speech denies or debates the existence of trans gender individuals ie. when Hamm said every human being is either a male or a female and that is not something that can be changed by a declaration….
51) Bildy says:
These statements demonstrate that she [ Hamm ] is evidence and reality based in her views.
… for members of healthcare professions, reality and science should not give way to fantastical thinking no matter how kind or well intentioned.
These statements demonstrate that she [ Hamm ] is evidence and reality based in her views.
… for members of healthcare professions, reality and science should not give way to fantastical thinking no matter how kind or well intentioned.
52) Bildy cont’d: Now does not mean that people should be unkind to transgender people or denythem services and Miss Hamm’s made this clear in her statements and testimony.
53) Bildy: One can be critical of transgender activism and gender identity ideology and the policies flowing there from, while treating people with full human dignity and without denying their existence as is alleged by College (BCCNM).
54) Bildy says College lawyer Ms. Findlay disagrees and believed that as soon as you say “the word woman or girl and you do not automatically include in that transgender people you are being discriminatory…
55) Bildy cont’d:
… That is an extreme position. Ms. Hamm’s positions are not the extreme positions here.
… That is an extreme position. Ms. Hamm’s positions are not the extreme positions here.
56) Bildy:
Ms. Hamm does not deny the existence of people who believe that they have an internal sense of self that differs from their biological reality.
She does however reject the notion that everyone experiences this.
Ms. Hamm does not deny the existence of people who believe that they have an internal sense of self that differs from their biological reality.
She does however reject the notion that everyone experiences this.
57) Bildy now brings an exchange during her cross examination with Trans Youth Can researcher, Dr. Greta Bauer who served as an expert witness for the College.
Bildy walked Bauer down a path that resulted in Bauer making giving a logical response varying beliefs.
Bildy walked Bauer down a path that resulted in Bauer making giving a logical response varying beliefs.
58) the exchange compares the belief in everyone having gender identity to the belief that everyone has a soul.
Bildy’s recap of the her cross examination with Bauer goes as follows: …
Bildy’s recap of the her cross examination with Bauer goes as follows: …
59) Lisa Bildy’s gender identity vs human soul questions to Dr. Greta Baur:
Q: So you would agree today, still that it’s your position that everyone has a gender identity?
A: Yes, I would.
Q: So you would agree today, still that it’s your position that everyone has a gender identity?
A: Yes, I would.
60) Q: If it's a feeling or a knowing of oneself as you called it the other day, that would be entirely subjective would it not?
A: Subjective meaning, one understands themselves, one knows themselves, it's part of their subject, it's their own sense of knowing, Yes.
A: Subjective meaning, one understands themselves, one knows themselves, it's part of their subject, it's their own sense of knowing, Yes.
61) Q: If a religious person says that everyone has a soul, you're entitled to have that belie are they not?
A: They are indeed.
Q. And I'm entitled to say that I don't believe in that religion, that I do not in fact have a soul. Is that correct?
A: They are indeed.
Q. And I'm entitled to say that I don't believe in that religion, that I do not in fact have a soul. Is that correct?
62)
Q: That would be your personal belief?
A: Right.
Q: And now if I had said that in certain periods of medieval history perhaps I might have been brought up on blasphemy charges or sent to a star chamber, but today I would be free to say that would I not?
Q: That would be your personal belief?
A: Right.
Q: And now if I had said that in certain periods of medieval history perhaps I might have been brought up on blasphemy charges or sent to a star chamber, but today I would be free to say that would I not?
63) A: I'm assuming so, I hope so
Q: And likewise, you can believe that everyone has a gender identity. You're entitled to that belief but I'm free to reject that belief am I not?
A: You are.
Q: And likewise, you can believe that everyone has a gender identity. You're entitled to that belief but I'm free to reject that belief am I not?
A: You are.
64) Q: And a nurse should also be free to reject that belief for herself, would you agree?
A: Correct.
Q. Okay, and a nurse can also reject the idea that all people have a soul, right?
A: Correct.
A: Correct.
Q. Okay, and a nurse can also reject the idea that all people have a soul, right?
A: Correct.
65) Q: And a nurse can also reject the idea that all people have a soul, right?
A: Correct:
Q: We wouldn't say then she's an inherent danger to Catholics in the provision of nursing care would we?
A. I feel like I'm losing you a bit here.
A: Correct:
Q: We wouldn't say then she's an inherent danger to Catholics in the provision of nursing care would we?
A. I feel like I'm losing you a bit here.
66) Q: well, you can just answer the question.. If she doesn't believe that there's a soul would she be an inherent danger to Catholics in the provision of nursing care?
67)
A: If she has a personal belief that there's no soul and assuming that Catholics do, then no, not necessarily.
A: If she has a personal belief that there's no soul and assuming that Catholics do, then no, not necessarily.
68) Bildy to the panel:
The suggestion was made by Ms. Findlay (College counsel) yesterday that you must believe in gender identity.
You’re required to believe it otherwise it’s transphobic.
The suggestion was made by Ms. Findlay (College counsel) yesterday that you must believe in gender identity.
You’re required to believe it otherwise it’s transphobic.
69) Bildy:
That cannot be the case. We are entitled to have, all of us, our own beliefs.
Dr. Bauer acknowledged that.
That cannot be the case. We are entitled to have, all of us, our own beliefs.
Dr. Bauer acknowledged that.
70) Bildy con’d:
And just because you have a belief doesn't mean you are automatically going to be a danger or a threat to someone who has different beliefs.
It’s nonsensical and ridiculous to even suggest it.
And just because you have a belief doesn't mean you are automatically going to be a danger or a threat to someone who has different beliefs.
It’s nonsensical and ridiculous to even suggest it.
71) Bildy:
Women do have sex-based rights and protections under the Charter and under all Human Rights legislation.
Based on biological reality, that women have historically faced barriers due to their sex, particularly the consequences of reproduction.
Women do have sex-based rights and protections under the Charter and under all Human Rights legislation.
Based on biological reality, that women have historically faced barriers due to their sex, particularly the consequences of reproduction.
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