Thread by @presbyterianpew

Monday Afternoon OC:
Beginning with discussion of O14 - appointing people to handle parts of a trial
Moved to answer in affirmative as amended: details about who meets with aggrieved party about confession under 38-1

Substitute motion to answer O14 in the negative

https://twitter.com/presbyterianpew/status/1937152399405203964

Original mover amends to remove amendment, back to original Overture. Original language of O14 passes by voice vote.

For the substitute (recommend negative): how would the moderator or his designee know which part of confession is pertinent to offended party?

Voice vote for substitute motion (answer negative) passes by voice vote.

Vote on (now) main motion (answer negative)
Y: 104
N: 3
A: 4

Discussing O1 - steps before beginning a trial Substitute: answer in negative; currently two ways to trial - 31-2 investigation or voluntary prosecutor, O1 would remove right of voluntary prosecutor; standard for voluntary prosecutor is "probable cause" not ...

"strong presumption of guilt". Scripture says we should be able to handle matters within the church. This could result in "closing the court" to this need.

Against substitute: this is a return to how BCO was historically interpreted ...

this allows individuals to be able to force prosecution, unlike how this is handled in civil court.

Amendment to O1 to strike parts C and E (raises questions about whether the process has been handled correctly).

Vote on amendment (strike C and E)

Y: 52
N: 41
A: 22

For substitute (to answer O1 in negative): if individual brings a charge against a TE and the court doesn't allow it, member doesn't have standing for complaint or appeal, it wrongly insulates TEs from prosecution ...

... and how would a court determine if the requirements have been met without essentially holding a trial before the trial.

Amendment to O1 to strike F passes by voice vote

For the substitute (answer in the negative): it doesn't seem like this Overture changes much;
For the substitute: redundant, too bureaucratic.

Substitute motion (answer in the negative) passes by voice vote.

Vote to answer O1 in the negative

Y: 109
N: 14
A: 2

Discussion of O7 - advisors in session case, raise the bar for change of original jurisdiction

Amendment to strike everything from 34-1 except "Process against a minister shall be entered before the Presbytery of which he is a member."

Reasoning for amendment: the bar is too low to remove jurisdiction. Get rid of that section entirely. We already have measures to handle this: complaint, 40-5

Substitute: move to answer O7 the negative; good intentions, but more work needed. Maybe improvements to BCO 40.

Against amendment: current BCO at least gives us a mechanism for SJC assuming jurisdiction and it has been needed recently

Amendment (to strike all but first sentence) fails by voice vote.

Amendment to O1 to change "five Presbyteries" to "10% of Presbyteries"; raises the bar, "future proofs" this chapter as the # of Presbyteries grow. Amendment passed.

Substitute (answer O7 in the negative) passes by voice vote.

Vote on new main motion (answer in negative)
Y: 113
N: 10
A: 2

Discussion of 15 - language for definite suspension

Amendment to change space to say length of suspension to space to say end date of suspension. Amendment passes by voice vote.

Voting on O15 (affirmative as amended)

Y: 124
N: 0
A: 1

Discussion of O16 - clarification of language for indefinite suspension

Y: 124
N: 0
A: 0

Discussion of O31 - whole Presbytery must vote to administratively suspend TE

Move to answer 031 in the affirmative: intended to be a very high bar, depriving a man from his livelihood, depriving a church of preaching; gets in front of a wider perspective of court

For Overture: in the secular realm we have the ability to continue to pay someone while they are administratively suspended; in the church, the court suspending (Presbytery) is not the court that pays him. Higher bar is necessary.

Against: minister could do great damage to church, cause of Christ in the 10 days needed to call Presbytery meeting

For: clarification that this is not about someone who has been found guilty but someone facing trial. Trials that take 6 months to a year could do ...

... irreparable harm to minister and his congregation in the intervening time. Administrative suspension is necessary, but important to protect the rights and the welfare of the accused.

Amendment proposed: to clarify 2/3 of "the voting members of the" entire court.

Amendment to strike the word "entire".

Against amendment: word "entire" is important because a judicial commission IS the court so "entire" clarifies whole Presbytery. Striking word "entire" fails by voice vote.

Amendment to strike "entire court" and replace with "session or presbytery". Amendment to capitalize Session and Presbytery. Amendments pass by voice vote.

Vote to recommend in the affirmative as amended:
Y: 118
N: 6
A: 0

Discussion of O32 - elevation of censure without a new trial

Burden on the person who has been judged guilty to show repentance. But notice should be given of a hearing that this matter will be considered, opportunity to show evidence of repentance.

Against Overture: if a person is suspended and there is a consideration that he is contumacious, that is a new charge; answer this in the negative and pass 38

Amendment to change 10 days notice to 30. Excommunication or deposition is a big deal. 10 days short time to prepare.

Amendment to change 10 days to 30 days passes by voice vote.

Amendment to 36-8 to allow person so suspended the right of appeal. Add similar amendment to 42-2.

Against amendment: these rights are afforded in a process but aren't afforded in a hearing, O38 is better for this.

Amendment to add right to appeal in 36-8 and 42-2 passes by voice vote.

Amendment to add word "respectively" after "deposition or excommunication" to clarify distinction b/w suspension from sacraments or office.

Amendment to add word "respectively" passes by voice vote.

Amendment to remove "original trial" and insert "court having jurisdiction" - commission has been dismissed, whole court needs to handle this. Passes by voice vote.

Amendment to strike "a defense" and replace with "proof of his repentance" to clarify that this is not redoing the trial. Amendment to replace the word "proof" with "evidence" adopted without objection.

Against amendment "evidence of repentance" - this is a ruling on contumacy, it isn't repentance that is needed but evidence that they are contumacious.

Amendment "evidence of innocence". Fails by voice vote.

Voting on amendment "evidence of repentance"

Y: 63
N: 48
A: 12

For substitute (answer in negative): this is an issue that needs addressing, but are we creating new problem
For substitute: we are using a lot of judicial language but saying that we don't need a judicial process

Voice vote to make substitute the main fails.

Vote to answer O32 in the affirmative as amended

Y: 102
N: 17
A: 7

Motion to answer O38 with reference to O32 (just answered in the affirmative)

Y: 119
N: 3
A: 2

Motion to answer O39 with reference to O32 (just answered in the affirmative)

Y: 123
N: 2
A: 1

Chairman shared the news of a missile strike on US forces in Qatar, asked commissioner to pray for all parties involved before a 10 minute break.

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