Thread by @presbyterianpew

Back from dinner.

Recommend O28 (church members can complain when session refers matter to Presbytery) in the affirmative. This is a hole in our BCO. If session business is handled by Presbytery, members lose the right to complain.

https://twitter.com/presbyterianpew/status/2069166741930811770

Amendment to strike "as if the Session itself had taken the action" because it's confusing whether that refers to having standing, or to the whole process itself.

Against the amendment if the Presbytery denies complaint, would member carry the complaint straight to SJC?

Amended language (striking last phrase) passes.

Against the original Overture. BCO 41 says you can file a complaint against court of original jurisdiction. In referral, Presbytery becomes court of original jurisdiction.

Amendment to change "retain the right" to "have standing". Can't "retain" a right to complain to Presbytery when they never had that right. Adopted. 116-3-4

Substitute to answer in the negative. "Final disposition" suggests it could be matters other than judicial and it would become confusing for members to complain in all cases. Overly broad.

Shall the substitute (answer in the negative) become the main? Yes. 74-47-4

Voting to answer O28 in the negative.

❌O28 90-33-2

Discussing O57 - require minutes of congregational meetings included in session records submitted to Presbyteries for review.

Recommended in the affirmative - congregational meetings are important and minutes should be reviewed.

Substitute motion to refer back - SJC ruled that actions of a congregation are not under review because they are not actions of a court. When sessions act on things from congregational meeting, then it can be reviewed.

In favor of O - review of congregational records wouldn't be review of congregation. Presbytery can't cite the congregation. They would be citing the session for how they handled the congregation.

In favor of O - even for the purpose of review and control of a session, how can Presbytery determine if session actions are consistent with decisions in congregational meetings without those minutes?

Should the substitute (refer back to Presbytery) become the main? No. 43-52-2

Amend 12-7 and 25-5 to clarify that congregations may vote to exempt certain congregational records from the Presbytery. Fails. 12-116-1

Against the O - this is already required by some Presbyteries. BCO 12-5 says "session records" not just "minutes". Congregational meetings should be part of session records. Amendment not needed.

Vote to answer O57 in the affirmative

❌O57 82-50-0

Discussing O2 - members of mission churches voting on pastor called by Presbytery

Affirmative as amended to clarify "provisions of BCO 25 so far as they may be applicable"

Substitute to answer in the negative - a mature church elects their leaders, a mission church has not matured to that point. It is governed by others. They don't have the rights of a particular church until they are particularized.

Shall the substitute (answer O2 in the negative) become the main? Yes. 104-25-1

Substitute motion to refer back to the Presbytery. Mission church may not be mature, but often members are, having left a church to engage in planting. But O needs more work.

Speech for referring back - mission churches do consent to a pastor when they become members if there is already a pastor

Speech against - this Overture is not needed. Members vote when the church particularized.

Shall the substitute (refer back to Presbytery) become the main? No. 46-83-1

Voting to answer O2 in the negative

❌O2 100-26-2

Discussion of O51 - add a section on "Assisted Churches"

Answer in the affirmative - BCO has provisions for growth but not for decline. Presbytery started 14 mission churches and closed 12. Two BCO "experts" can't decide if a church with one elder is a "mission church".

Substitute to answer in the negative - yes, there is a constitutional issue, but this issue needs more study before making such sweeping changes.

In favor of the O - lost a church to the ARP because they couldn't find a pastor and were struggling. This would have been helpful.

Against the O - we're creating a new category without providing the necessary structure for reviving these churches.

Shall the substitute (answer O51 in the negative) become the main? Yes. 74-54-0

Substitute motion to refer back to Presbytery.

Against substitute - should just clarify whether a church with 1 elder is a mission church or not, we don't need another whole section to the BCO.

For substitute - this needs work but does need to be addressed, would like to see it come back. Might need to be in different chapter.

Shall the substitute (refer back) become the main? Yes. 83-47-1

Voting to recommend referring back to Presbytery

↩️O51 114-14-2

O12 - alternatives to a bachelor's degree for ordination

Answer in the affirmative. This is our only Overture and we got it in early, so that should count for something. (😉). Changing job market, cost of education rising, pastor as second career.

Yes, Presbytery can grant exception, but only during the floor exam. Example: two men who do not have bachelors spent multiple years to go through all of the steps: seminary, licensure, ordination exams, etc. not knowing if that exception would be granted.

Undergraduate education may be more typical in your communities. But in some communities it is becoming less common. 40% of all undergrad degrees are associate degrees.

Substitute to answer in the negative - this takes away something that we are assuming, which is a broader education before ordination

Support of substitute - why must Presbytery wait until point of ordination to grant exception?

Previous speaker says that assessment of substitute education can only be assessed during ordination when the committee and Presbytery get to know the man.

Against - if this something that can only be evaluated when a man is known, the change in this O isn't good.

For O - we don't want to keep a man from ministry when this level of education is something that may only come from financial privilege.

For O - this would facilitate ordination of Hispanic leadership and others from outside the country who haven't had the same education.

For the O - second career ministry, how much of your bachelor's degree do you remember? Bachelor's degree can be hard to come by.

Against O - the exception clause that already exists is for this situation, the Overture changes the norm

Shall the substitute (answer O12 in the negative) become the main? Yes. 75-54-2

Substitute to refer back - tweak it to bring this back and perfect it. We're inhospitable to second career pastors. We need a version of this.

For the substitute - if we can make the determination before we know the person, why not just move the vote to before the process of education, internship, etc.?

Against the O - coming into the ministry is a high calling and should have a high bar.

For the substitute - author has requested to have a second chance. We should grant that chance.

For substitute - bachelor's allows other people to assess a person in other subject areas outside the scope of ordination exam, would need guidelines as to how to assess those things

Motion to call all questions before the house. Yes.
116-11-2

Shall the substitute (refer back to Presbytery) become the main? Yes. 90-40-0

Voting to refer O12 back.

↩️O12 106-25-1

Moving to approve the "grounds" - summary of the reasons the OC has voted the way they have on each item to share with commissioners.

Motion to approve them all in Omnibus.

Against omnibus - read overnight and discuss in the morning.

Against omnibus - these are important and we are not at our best.

Motion to postpone omnibus vote until first thing tomorrow. Voice vote passes unopposed.

Procedural motion to reconvene at 9:30 instead of 8:30. Voice vote passes.

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