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laser is the sauce @sarahjeong
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Today is day 4 of #WaymoUber or #UberWaymo whichever you prefer. Yesterday's dispatch is here: theverge.com/2018/2/7/16988…
In my day 3 dispatch, I talk a little bit about damages because it's come up but I'm hoping today is the day we finally get to the law part of the lawsuit
Motions practice, lawyers are being extremely dramatic about notice and prior disclosure of witnesses, accusations of "sandbagging us"
"This is CLASSIC sandbagging"
ah yes, Federal Rule of Evidence 947: Sandbagging
Alsup tells Waymo that he's "going to remember this" and the next time they want something admitted into evidence they might not get it. And that's why you play nice in litigation, folks
Friedberg is back on direct
Good lord, Waymo is trotting out the depo tape and everything just to establish that Stroz Friedberg can't say "one way or another" / "definitively" that Google confidential information made it to Ottomotto/Uber through sources other than what they examined
Depo tape:

WAYMO: If you were to testify at trial would you be able to say one way or another that any Google confidential information made its way onto the servers at Uber?

FRIEDBERG: Um. … the servers at Uber… I don’t personally have knowledge of that.
Friedberg is saying they reviewed countless devices and,

FRIEDBERG: I only saw one text message on an Otto device that related to Google.
(The Stroz report does say a lot about Otto people hurriedly deleting things / wiping / faking them out with the wrong passcode before due diligence, so there's that)
(Some of the deletion stuff was brought up yesterday but not the worst of it imo)
(possibly because it's in excluded portions)
UBER: Has Stroz Friedberg done work for Google?
WAYMO: OBJECTION.
ALSUP: Objection’s overruled.
Uber questioning is showing what Stroz worked on: 1.5 million documents that got boiled down to 400,000; interviews of all of the diligenced employees; even field work (the private investigators dispatched to find out what happened to the Drobo disks)
It was supposed to be for attorneys' eyes only, it never went to Uber executives in case it created some kind of a conflict.
(Friedberg is a lawyer; their clients were lawyers; part of Stroz's deal is forensics analysis that can be putatively covered by attorney-client privilege; clearly it did not work out here)
sorry, attorney work product privilege
i think
Oh good more spreadsheets
On cross-exam, Uber is now clarifying last access dates. A number of the files on AL's computer were last accessed 3/10. Friedberg says last access could be about opening the file but it could also be an automated process.
It could be, for example, a virus scan, or syncing between the dropbox and the local folder.
A lot of those last-access timestamps were really closely clustered together iirc, automated process would make sense to me but also [link to youtube video of michael douglas's speech in wall street]
Now we're going over the part where AL took the disks to Shredworks and had the Drobo disks shredded.

........... for some reason Uber is going ahead and going into the whole clownshow where the PIs went there and couldn't find definitive evidence that the disks were shredded
I loved this saga because it's so convoluted and makes literally no sense theverge.com/2017/10/3/1640…
it's a conspiracy theory without an underlying theory
Uber tl;dr of Stroz report: they went over a bajillion documents and didn't find shit

Waymo tl;dr of Stroz: they went over a bajillion documents and there's more stuff that was deleted and erased and why tho
There were four USB devices that were connected to AL's computer, they were wiped, Stroz never examined — to be clear, no indication those devices got to Otto or got to Uber
Witness is currently a former Stroz Friedberg employee.

MAUGERI: It’s difficult to determine what happened to these files because they were deleted and not active on the device
ouch damning
Maugeri just said that *if given more time by the employer* they could have determined other external devices and what happened to files
WAYMO: But it was outside of the protocol?

Maugeri quibbles
Maugeri quibbles, then ends with a repeat of "these files were not on the device, it was difficult to determine..." which is sure to play great with jury
this could literally mean nothing and the line of questioning is framing it in the right way for Waymo
So Waymo story is that Stroz found all this stuff about Anthony deleting things and having Google CI, and also that they were in cahoots with Uber to cover up these other devices?
Maugeri acknowledges that they did not look at any Ottomotto servers or Ottomotto computers outside of the personal devices / "Ottomotto-related" laptops of the diligenced employees
E.g., they did not show up at Ottomotto offices to do their analysis
Cannot foreclose the possibility that Google information reached Uber servers through sources she did not investigate
Cross-exam for Uber, establishing that Ottomotto employees freely gave passwords / credentials to various email accounts / the dropbox account so that stroz could examine
I don't think this is going to end up in the case but this was the absolute #1 funniest thing in the stroz report to me, personally
Uber trying to question Maugeri about why the last access timestamps are all the same for many files, she begins to answer.

WAYMO: Objection, foundation.
ALSUP: Do you know what you’re talking about?
MAUGERI: Yes, I do.
ALSUP: Alright, we’ve laid a foundation.
Maugeri testifies that a software update could have changed the last access timestamp and so forth.
Uber pulls up the exhibit and begins to read descriptions of the files that were last accessed all at 3/10/2015 16:06

Picture of a person holding a miniature car
Picture of a hanging plant
Picture of components
Screenshot of a Aspen invoice
Picture of muffins in a basket
Waymo tries to interrupt while reading and Uber says, "Don't want to forget about the muffins"
(he skipped over the "picture of components" and the "Screenshot of a Aspen invoice" but it was up on the screen for everyone to see)
I have been told by multiple people I've accidentally misled into coming in to spectate that no, it's not actually that interesting and i'm an asshole
Waymo redirect

WAYMO: Do you remember the muffins?
MAUGERI: Yes, I remember the muffins.
Waymo now running through several of the rows and having her read out the more damning ones, like "closeup video of a component of a self-driving car"
Maugeri had to read "Aspen confidential presentation regarding self-driving car" three times in a row.

WAYMO: They're all in the same folder as the muffins?
MAUGERI: I don't know if they're in the same folder but they're in the same report.
ALSUP: We're going to take a break. All that talk of muffins got me hungry, maybe you can have a muffin in the jury room.
We're back to thing about Fuji (code name for Uber components) and whether it gets to come into trial
Alsup's voice is a little scratchy, good thing he has cough drops
specifically, the Fuji components have been admitted as physical exhibits but they have stuff about work-around design that they want to question on -- Alsup has decided it's not fair to Waymo and there's brand new info. Uber is arguing that the update is very limited
Uber says that it's not a substantive change and that Waymo doesn't need time to prep an expert witness etc
Ducked into overflow room for this next portion but i left my jacket in the main courtroom and it's fucking freezing in here omfg
it was only normal temperatures before because there were SO MANY REPORTERS that our collective body heat counteracted the Alsup A/C
Bill Gurley of Benchmark Capital just came and went. How many billions of dollars were called to the stand in just the last few days?
Andy Crain, forensics witness, is on the stand and OH HAI PORTLANDER
Ah, expert witness
Expert for Waymo, to determine if the Stroz investigation was effective at identifying and quarantining Google information retained by Levandowski
Wow, just occurred to me that Stroz's entire business reputation might hinge on the verdict in this suit
Crain started investigation with Mr. L’s personal laptop. Google had already identified that L had downloaded 14,700 files, connected SD card reader into the laptop. "Logical place for us to pick up"
Found that the SD card was connected to L's personal laptop and the 14,700 files were transferred.
MOAR SPREADSHEETS to show that files are being transferred into new directories created: boards/chauffeur-svn
After the disconnection of the card, the files are placed into a sparse-bundle (compressed file like zip file), and the 14,700 files are no longer detectable by name
the files are deleted, the sparse bundle remains, and then there are copies made of the sparse bundle
/Volumes/Drobo2/_Encrypted Folders/_Boards copy.sparsebundle

Ah, yes, an incredibly Normal file to create a month before you quit your job with no notice
HMMMMM one of the devices that connected to Levandowski's laptop later was called NEWCO
Connected and disconnected 1/14 and 1/15 (right when Lior Ron quits Google, a little before Levandowski quits Google). Newco is the _Uber_ code name for Ottomotto
Crain says his investigation "leads me to conclude the Stroz investigation was not effective at quarantining Google information."

That's speculation says Alsup, so we do a round of other questions to get at similar gist
Now Uber cross-exam
Uber trying to get at whether anything was transferred to the NEWCO device. Crain says he never had access to the NEWCO device
UBER: After hundreds of hours with three colleagues, do you have any evidence that the 14,000 files made it to Uber computers?
CRAIN: I didn’t examine Uber computers.
UBER: Yes or no?
CRAIN: No, that wasn’t my role in the investigation.
WAYMO: Do you have any evidence that the 14,000 files were *not* transferred to the NEWCO device?

Rapid fire objection on multiple grounds

WAYMO: Your honor, I'm just asking the same question.

Allowed, and yeah, Crain can't rule it out
We're back to re-redirect by Uber about the epistemological question of whether we can know that files were moved to NEWCO
"Do you have any evidence that the 14,000 files were not not *not* transferred to the NEWCO device??"

--10 hours later--

"Do you have any evidence that the 14,000 files were not not not not not not not
Michael Janosko, Google security engineer, is on the stand now
JANOSKO: Growing up, I always had an interest in computers,
come on man
A manager in Google's Enterprise Infrastructure Protection team (EIP)
So... I *guess* this is about reasonable measures to maintain secrecy
Talking about security controls and security protections of data centers
As you may or may not have guessed: yes, Google has several security measures around its data centers
one does not simply walk into a Google data center
Janosko now defining phising for the jury
phishing
I know all of this seems slightly silly but if I'm reading this right this is an element of their legal case, and we haven't gotten much of the actual legal case so far
Janosko now defining malicious software
JANOSKO: So, I think everyone's experienced that prompt to install a patch to avoid a security flaw...
to the security tweeters who are wondering if they will ever get called as witnesses in other cases

First you have to:
1) be able to explain that there's a thing such as malware without sighing
2) own a nice suit
3) have grown up in the local area and have lovely children
WAYMO: If I’m using a Google-managed device, and I want to access one of these services like, ah, cloud, what kind of security controls exist between the device and the network center?
Janosko is now explaining how they use ENCRYPTION in transit as a wrapper (https?)
... did https just make it into the record to prove an element of trade secrets
WAYMO: Are you familiar with the Google Cloud platform?
JANOSKO: Yes.
WAYMO: What is the Google Cloud platform?

guys i'm so tired
Okay we're now in cross-exam
UBER: Sir, you understand that Anthony Levandowski downloaded fourteen thousand files from the [slowly enunciates] S. V. N. server?
Waymo objects to foundation but Janosko already said "yes" so we're moving on
UBER: As of last year, your group didn’t have any involvement in the protocols of the SVN server, is that true?

JANOSKO: So... [begins to talk]

Alsup interrupts and says he's not being fair to Mr. Gonzales and he should answer
UBER: There's such a thing as a staaale user, right?
One way to deal with stale users is to revoke credentials
If a stale user doesn't log on for many months, then "you don't know that the user's credentials would be revoked, do you?"

Janosko's answer is that "there are procedures in place"
UBER: If someone didn’t use it for three months, you wouldn’t know if they expired, would you?
Janosko goes back and forth before Uber pins him down with "you wouldn't know one way or the other, would you?"
One of my favorite things is seeing depo tapes versus witness on the stand and how much trial prep has gone into them
we're playing a depo tape right now and whew Janosko has gotten a lot of prep eh
There's 750 people on the security team. Uber pressing Janosko asking "WHO!!!" is responsible for keeping an eye on the SVN to see if anyone is downloading "all the files"
UBER: Is ANYBODY in charge of supervising that!
JANOSKO: I don't know if downloading all the data on the SVN server is necessarily a malicious act, it's what they do after that.
Alsup intervenes. Asks if he knows anyone and to give a specific name.

Janosko does not know.
UBER: [extremely darkly] Are you aware of any server that downloads ALL OF THE DATABASE when you log in
Back to Waymo, Waymo establishing that SVN is hosted in Cloud, Google Cloud has all the security protections described
Janosko is done, we're going to take a 15 minute break bc alsup is sick of this shit lol
Sasha Zbrozek now on the stand! That's the engineer that was like "idk guys is this really a big deal tho"
He's Waymo's witness so this is fun
oh my goddddd he just spelled his last name using phonetic alphabet
stop trying to score points with alsup
Waymo asks how SVN works.

ZBROZEK: We will download the entire repository, usually the present-day snapshot, we'll upload it back with whatever we've changed.
ok guys you can stop getting mad about svn in my mentions now
Zbrozek set up the SVN in question and wrote the documentation for using it
WAYMO: What is yak shaves dot com

ZBROZEK: It was the SVN server

WAYMO: Is that still the domain?

ZBROZEK: No, not anymore.

WAYMO: Why did you change it?

ZBROZEK: Once it became public it was necessary to get it changed.
I regret to inform everyone that yak shaves dot com currently redirects to one of my tweets
Zbrozek is the same engineer who said in an email that Levandowski's downloaded files were "low-value" and said that he didn't want to set a precedent for a full repository download to be suspicious
for the last time, i know what yak shaving is, it's still a stupid fucking domain name
Zbrozek's full email:

Well, Anthony’s log speaks to the number of files. It also expresses the (rough) file size for each transaction. Figuring out the totals for both can be done by parsing the log snippet. +
I’m a leery because both of those numbers aren’t really meaningful to any narrative. It also has a chilling effect on being a hardware engineer -- we all do full checkouts and it makes me uncomfortable to think that lawyers are trying to ascribe suspicion to it.
WAYMO: You said it didn't ring any alarm bells to you, does the information on the screen ring alarm bells to you?

(the screen is a demonstrative from the Google forensic side showing where the full repo went -- to a SD card etc)

The question was not allowed
Now going to the "it was considered low-value enough" email.

WAYMO: What did you make of that?
March 2015 exhibit -- "Ideally we'd be allowed to store this data wherever we like - it's not code, it's not user data, it's pretty low-value -- and thus get the freedom to use easy solutions that do everything we want. But getting that permission is well above my englevel."
He says that "low-value" meant it was just less valuable than code and user data.
Another email from Zbrozek:

"At least historically, high-value has been algorithms and software.The hardware (at all levels) was a second class citizen. Maybe opinions have changed."
hahahaha I love when engineers get bitter
WAYMO: Do you consider yourself low-value?
ZBROZEK: No.
WAYMO: Do you consider yourself a low-value worker?
ZBROZEK: No.
WAYMO: Do you think the technology in the SVN server is low-value technology?
ZBROZEK: No.
WAYMO: Why not?
ZBROZEK: It’s everything you need to build a self-driving car, there’s nothing low value there.
UBER: When you set up the SVN, there were no tools for monitoring what people were doing with their subversion account?
ZBROZEK: No, that’s not entirely true.

Rolling the depo tape
UBER: So nobody monitors?
ZBROZEK: No, but nobody monitors when we get water from the refrigerator, either.
Uber now pressing on this because it's a bad answer, water isn't the same as data
ZBROZEK: I don't really know what a trade secret is.
Uber pressing hard on his "low value emails," Waymo really got ahead of this
Shout-out to the Keker lawyers who've made it in as characters in this lawsuit
UBER: To this day, you don't know what a trade secret is.
ZBROZEK: I have been trying to avoid the legal definition.
I'd like to think that part of the legacy of Oracle v Google is that all of these witnesses have assiduously avoided being hacker news comments lawyers
An email TO Zbrozek:

"Sasha, we want to be able to say that SVN contains only internal confidential stuff, which I understand from Pierre is the case"
UBER: Have you made any changes to the instructions for logging into the SVN repository?
ZBROZEK: I’m sure I have at some point.
UBER: But to this day, if someone logs into the SVN database following your instructions, *everything is downloaded*.
It is
which, my understanding, is the point?
hooray we've hit triple hearsay
WAYMO: Why was the SVN password protected?
ZBROZEK: Because we wanted to protect the contents of the information that was in there.
WAYMO: What is GCE?
ZBROZEK: GCE, the Google Compute Engine
Now Waymo going back to Uber's whole thing about "shouldn't someone be keeping an eye on the SVN server / shouldn't there be alarm bells"

ZBROZEK: False positives are not useful.
ZBROZEK: This is something we proscribe for the engineers to do and something that is necessary for their goals.
We're on recross

UBER: If you log into anything as a Google employee it's password protected, right?
ZBROZEK: Well it depends, have you logged on from that device before . . .
Now we are getting into LAWYERCEPTION
The emails are getting zoomed in and Uber is pointing to lawyers cc'd on the email and pointing out that the lawyers are present in the courtroom are currently litigating the case
Zbrozek said that he couldn't recognize them and he doesn't know. "I don't know where they're from. And you hopefully blacked [the firm names out] so I wouldn't now."

Their firm domains are, in fact, blacked out
This guy haha
Zbrozek is off, Pierre Yves-Droz is now on the stand.
Yves-Droz is the technical co-leader at Waymo
Now we're doing the backstory, I wonder if he studied at Stanford and has some wonderful children
Actually he got his degree at Berkeley but yes he has two sons
Explaining what LIDAR is VERY QUICKLY with effusive hand motions in a French accent
WAYMO: If you could buy these LIDARs off the shelf why would you build your own?
DROZ: They are pretty expensive and they don’t work well for automotive, they were very fragile.
WAYMO: Why is LIDAR important for self-driving cars?
DROZ: They are the eyes of the car.
Droz says that when he joined Google, they were using Velodyne. He had developed a LIDAR called "Little Bear" at his startup, which was acquired at Google, Google started using that, which evolved to Mama Bear and Papa Bear.
DROZ: Papa Bear was a long-range LIDAR. Velodyne is more medium-range LIDAR.
... now explaining a fiber laser, in, again, a very fast French accent with effusive gestures
In short, I don't know what a fiber laser is
As far as I'm aware, this is a fiber laser
The fiber lasers are very expensive, $8k-10k
Started developing Grizzly Bear in 2012, it was smaller and cheaper the Velodyne LIDAR. Higher resolution, with 64 laser beams. Velodyne does have the same number.
Grizzly Bear 3 is currently on Waymo's cars. He started working on it in summer of 2015.
He's looking at sealed exhibits rn, not available to the jury
Er... did I hear that right? GBR-3 costs $4000, Velodyne costs $75,000?
Also sorry, I meant not avalable to the gallery, it's being shown to the jury
Today is the first indication we've gotten of what the trade secrets could be.

.... I think.
The last time I thought so, it was a fake-out.
OMG lawyer on cross-exam is trying to undermine trade secret secrecy because Pierre Yves-Droz took home an old LIDAR AND BROUGHT IT TO BURNING MAN
i have a feeling someone just filled out their bingo card
Okay so we're breaking, Pierre Yves-Droz is coming back tomorrow.
We're bringing back Sasha Zbrozek I think for impeachment?
Oh no I mean for the closed session
Okay we're being kicked out. Dispatch forthcoming.
Day 4 dispatch: hey guys can we talk about something a little... awkward? ... I'm not so sure Waymo is going to win theverge.com/2018/2/8/16993…
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