Thread by @Richard_Autism

I am reflecting on Newson's "Surface sociability, but lack of sense of identity, pride, or shame" trait. There are aspects of it which are problematic, infact I would argue are an RRBI, or should be removed from it.

Her logic also seems faulty.

My concerns centre around the inclusion of behaviours that seem to indicate distress. Which means if a person is displaying these behaviours due to distress, they would be highly aroused.

If so anyone (autistic or not), will not be concerned about pride/ social identity/ shame.

Newson also links these behaviours with demand avoidance, lacking sense from that. Yet the demand avoidance is meant to be obsessive.

So Newson is conflating features that are RRBI in nature with social communication issues.

Lets put this way, so demand avoidance in PDA is obsessive because person lacks pride/ shame/ social identity?

But demand avoidance is meant to be obsessive due to a need for control (to not conform to demands).

Some aspects, one could call social sociability. Others just seem to should go elsewhere, maybe lability of mood?

"All give an impression of sociability, but 84% show very inappropriate behaviour and social response OVER AND ABOVE their demand avoidance."
adc.bmj.com/content/archdi…

"86% show no sense of pride, shame, responsibility, or identity in themselves, IN ADDITION to the lack of this sense which is implied by their demand avoidance."

I am just struggling to see the logic here. Especially if you are including distress behaviours linked to panic

"Sixty eight per cent show aggression to others, with no sex difference; 60% have extreme outbursts or panic attacks. Eighty"

It just seems that it seems in some respects Newson is pathologising the person twice. Once for lacking sense due to need for control and then for lacking pride/ shame/ social identity.

I am just unsure that these features in this trait are due to lacking "sense of social identity, pride, or shame".

I do not think it is due to ToM deficits or emapthy. I think there are other cognitive aspects that underpin these features.

I need to reflect on this more.

Something about this trait just feels wrong and I cannot put my finger on it.

@Andylowarousal @paullib1972 @milton_damian @gdmorewood does this making sense to you. i.e. if a person is having panic attacks etc, they will be highly aroused. Thus, "pride/ shame/ sense of social identity" will not cross the person's mind?