Thread by @tribunaltweets

We will be returning to the cross examination of nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) in her employment tribunal against Fife Health Board (R1) & Dr Upton (DU) at 1.50pm.

This mornings reporting and a full list of abbreviations is here:


Frequently used abbreviations:
JR: Jane Russell KC, counsel for Rs
NC: Naomi Cunningham, counsel for SP
J: Judge
P: Panel members

We return.
JR Re yr convo w DU
SP There was a discussion but I'd not been bullying.
JR Louise told u there'd been a serious compliant. This was true
SP She hadn't said I was bullying. I dispute. But there was a complaint, yes

JR I'm going to look at 3 events re disciplinary events. Re the 4 Jan letter from Mr Davidson: we looked at the B&H policy and Fife felt yr conduct fell within this category so approp to start a discipl action wasn't it?
SP Yes, if they felt so

JR Re letter [reads re unwanted behaviours causing suspension] Not gross misconduct but unwanted behaviours causing suspension?
SP Appears so
JR Guide to suspension
J Checking is the NHS conduct policy?
JR Yes. [reads re situations when suspension might be used incl where

allegations of B&H]
SP yes
JR Are guidelines of how to carry out eg days to write a letter is 4 calendar days. So complied w requirement?
SP Yes
JR Tell employee the reasons, which u were weren't you?
SP Yes
JR U understood was xmas eve event
SP Yes

JR Then contact details. you had Ms Gimer?
SP Yes
JR She checked in with you?
SP Yes
JR Explain any restrictions to workplace which u were told?
SP Correct
JR Return of laptops etc. U were told y'd be on full pay?
SP Yes

JR The representation and 7 MAr u were attended by SF?
SP Yes
JR Representation?
SP They never told me about the ? metg. I was there under false pretences
JR She didn't tell you it was a suspension meeting then, so u didnt have a union rep in Jan mtg?

SP Yes, that's my complaint
JR We can return to this later
JR Suspension risk assessment - were u aware of it? HAve u seen before?
SP No
JR Want to support a successful return w no staff overlap between you two, appreciating sensitivities and IX outstanding. Neutral stance

JR So this was an neutral approach taken...
J [apologises and leaves room after member of public interrupted live stream]
JR Suspension was neutral act to deal w a sensitive situation?
SP Didnt apprec the probs of me changing my work pattern
JR Not sure that's right

JR Not correct. They apprec u were uncomfortable
SP I was asked if I'd have problems working w Beth and I said no, no problems
JR That doesnt answer my Q. They were supportive
SP Only to my detriment
JR It was more detrimental to u to see Beth again in the CR, for 4th time?

SP Yes
JR U say was wrong to suspend u. Fife under a duty to assess this?
SP They should have talked to me first as I didnt believe bullying involved
JR BUt then no B&H IX wld happen? As ppl would deny and cant be right to have a procedure that never gets off the ground

SP Someone cld tell the NHS there's been bullying
JR It cld be a malicious complaint, but y've never claimed that
SP I didnt bully Beth. The nhs shld have asked me first
JR Doesnt work like that. You're asked later on.
SP I shld have had interview b4 suspension
JR Not in

policy tho
SP Bullying didnt happen imo
JR There's no step in policy as you'd like. Suspension is ahead of IX
SP Yes
JR Fife was following policy and isnt due to yr beliefs or sex?
SP No
JR ED wasnt present at Xmas eve so didnt know what y'd said?
SP No

JR If y'd made a protected act she wldnt have know would she?
SP No
JR Re Extension of suspension in Feb 24 letter, which says reviewed and extended because...
J [interjects] we need a 5 min break will we sort out some issues [remote sound appears to echo somewhat]

Everyone has been removed from the remote observation and we are WFTCHTJ again

We return although some people still have their microphones on so...

We have all been kicked out again as people are joining with their microphones on. Have retried and are currently WFTCHTJ again

We're back..
J We have view of the overspill room which I hope isn't distracting. And an issue w the temperature which is controlled from Glasgow
JR Looking at 2 Feb letter re extension of suspension, as awaiting start of IX
SP Yes
JR They weren't getting at u?
SP Correct,

SP but I had no info
JR It's v understandable and u had wellbeing support?
SP Yes, but hard speak to strangers. They called me
JR So this is who u called occupational health earlier?
SP Yes
[sounds from observers cutting through so J has left room again and we might be cut]

J Clerks are trying to sort
JR U refer to occ health call, who asked how u were feeling?
SP Yes
JR And if u needed anything?
SP I'd already talked to my GP and didnt need their input
JR Looking at suspension policy, always as short a period as possible and is to remove

heat from situation. So trying to avoid sit where heat was high
SP I dont believe they shld have had concerns
JR Not worried about escalation? On 3rd event things had gone wrong and might happen again. Cld it be a concern?
SP No concerns in 30 yrs so shldnt have been over this

JR On X Eve, from Fife things went wrong and u cldnt be rostered again?
SP Yes, but Beth cld have been asked not to be in CR
JR No my Q really
[someone is drying their hair via remote so disconnected again!]

PLEASE CAN ALL OBSERVERS TURN OFF CAMERAS AND MICROPHONES!!

We're back!
And waiting for the J to return

J Speak to viewers: to all remote observers, turn off yr camera and mics or else we might be interrupted. If they continue it may be appropraite to cease remote so please observe requirements.
JR Re rationale for extending. U sya was to harass u

JR They wanted to avoid an overlap of you working together
SP I was unable to work normal shifts
JR Not worried about u bumping into Beth? That's what they're syaing
SP It appears so, but Beth didnt need to work same shifts as me, my 2 night shifts a week w/out overlap

JR So change her shifts, not yrs?
SP Cld have compromised to keep him on day shifts
JR Only way was to put u on diff shifts?
SP I wld work any night shift if Beth wanted to avoid me
JR 7 March meeting w ED, note says, and SF notes. Charlotee, SF, ED and u present?
Yes

JR U say they wldnt refuse Beth in CR?
Yes
JR Only met Angie Shepherd and ED at suspension meeting?
Yes
JR Record is of u moving to a different dept, not a diff hospital?
SP They talked about minor injuries in diff area of Fife

JR Have shared AE in Fife?
Shared minor injuries
JR So was reasonable to ask to consider St MArgarets?
SP They were offering me to work somewhere I cldnt work
JR Moving a diff fept in Victoria was discussed?
Yes. I'm not a practitioner and dont deal w minor injuries

SP NPs take on more specialised roles in M Injuries.
JR This isnt mentioned in notes tho, re Queen Margarets? SFs notes if other options considered re temp move for u during IX
SP Correct I didnt want to move
JR NP isnt mentioned

JR All suspendeds are moved arent they so all treated the same
Yes, but I work in a specialised area and cldnt necess take on role in another area
JR Also CR issue about DU. Fife following advice from ECHR code of practice and treat acc to gender role they present
Yes, policy

JR Y're only complainer re CR.
SP Only person who complained to manager
JR Charlene, Garry and Clare had also said had a problem?
SP Yes
JR Clare is AE consultant
SP Yes
JR They're not giving evidence nor anything in bundle by them?
SP No

JR Yr solicitor asked re trans ppl employed at hospital
2 TW and 1 TM. Just you complained?
Yes
JR Asking u not to challenge is less harmful than banning u from asking?
SP Less harmful for bio women to have own spaces

JR Not unlimited space in a hospital tho? Short of space?
SP It's a new build and other spaces cld be used, so not entirely
JR No space to build new bathrooms tho?
SP I dont know. Believe other space I wasnt aware of before that Beth cld have used
JR Or you?

SP I could have done, but unfair on me after all this time and as a bio woman. And other staff were unhappy about it
JR ED interview w IX. ED reported was surprised by yr demeanor rather than discussing concerns
SP I was angry in susp mtg as went false pretences and no union

rep
JR This is another mtg. After 7 March, surprised by yr anger. U continued to be angry
SP This is about the suspension mtg on p243
JR Is yr anger about bio women having more entitlement to a space than TW?
NC We're at cross purposes and think it is suspension mtg

JR Apologies SP. She's talking about Jan mtg. U were really angry re yr entitlement?
SP No. Was lack of union rep
JR ED recommended a diff exit route avoiding AE and she was surprised by yr route. U did want to go thru AE. Did u want another encounter with DU?
SP No. I wanted

SP to get to my car thru the waiting room rather than the actual dept
JR All about Charlotte Myles now: extension suspension and rota on day shifts needed to supervise yr interactions, and return in April to daytime, and similar re March letter and oversight of yr return

JR Then similar re yr care of pats that u say is victimisation. the rationale for extension was disagreement about yr shifts and how to get to work. They wanted supervision
SP Yes
JR 1st complaint in 30 yrs?
SP Yes
JR was cos of B&H and then on patient care

JR Nothing to do with your beliefs but to do w patient care
SP I'm a senior nurse on the night shift
JR From CM, explore diff shift pattern, return and extra support. Unhappy w shifts cos of dog. Thought too risky to be on same shifts?
SP She wanted me to have support but I

SP didnt feel needed it. Possible they felt I needed senior staff to do this but I'd have asked for support if needed it.
JR [reads As u refused day shifts yr suspension was extended...April day shifts and return to nights so only temporary
SP Yes I did weekend days for 4 wks

JR Approach was lack senior support at nights. Also allowed IX time and to oversee yr interactions. Was concern re pateint care as an allegation here
SP Yes
JR Sensitive IX that might involve night shift staff and didnt want any issues with IX, so this made sense?
SP Yes

JR Y're still working at nights now and not concerned about being sacked?
SP No, I haven't done anything wrong
JR Y'll likely work there until retire?
Hopefully
JR Nothing indicates they're after u cos of yr beliefs or sex? End of Feb to Dec dates [? IX dates]

JR Initial mtg had 12 March invite, IX mtg informing letter on 19 July re failures to provide patient care and incident w Beth.
SP Yes
JR IX report submitted Dec 14th and IX isnt included in the ET but for completeness

JR findings recommended formal hearing under competency. So IX took 9 months?
SP Yes
JR Michelle ? Faro was one of writers of the report? Also AG as clinician and HR was MSF. MSF not coming to tribunal as off sick. So Hamilton attending instead

JR MSF absence record and she's had different types of leave and have calculated how much she's off. There's a lot. 17 days in March. 14 in April [lists incl phased return]
In May had 10 days off [lists types]. 16 days off in June [lists]. 10 days in July [lists]

JR She had 5 days in August off and 9 in Sept. In Oct 19 days and off sick throughout Nov and Dec. So the delay in IX was partly due to this, u agree?
SP Yes
JR Re your concerns about workplace and legal concerns: it's an agreed fact that in July u were asked not to discuss

the case? By Lauren?
Yes
JR Lauren should remind you of the IX policy and only discuss with your reps to ensure confidentiality. Template letter here? She's copied and pasted?
Yes
JR What JM and Harris was telling u standard rules?
Yes

JR Thankyou Ms Peggie
J Been a long day so we might just stop as I have things to discuss with you
NC My re-examination will be very brief so I'd prefer to continue to avoid my client having to come back tomorrow
J Let's have a 10 min break now and then review
NC Grateful

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