Thread by @tribunaltweets

We resume after a break for an issue with the bundle not containing all of the new pages

JR This is new evidence recently produced. The BGC from Jan 2024. We wont say others names. [reads re trans have all the rights and the only way we can get round this is ??]

What did u make of this by SP?
LN I just need a moment to think. I think she's trying to find a quicker way around this , going forward
JR Can u describe any more
J Can u put yr mic down?
JR what do u mean?
LN Only way we can do this is to say we werent told about this.

She's trying to find someone to blame as we have the protocols. She possibly shld have looked at the protocols when she 1st realised she had an issue w DU
JR GH says about mtg DU [reads omg I had the same shit..on and on about pronouns. who did the it refer to?
LN To DU

JR Why do u think that?
LN The start of convo says "is that drs name Beth?" And then says him/her when says Yes. "Omg had the same shit and on and on about pronouns" Its quite clear she's talking about DU
JR How normally referred to DU
LN I've heard e'thing incl weirdo

Gina Harding replies "she dont even look like a woman and hairline starting" She's referring as it and making fun of the drs appearance
JR It appears official from Feb 2024 - SP v DU. WHat do u make of this?
LN That she's taking legal action against DU

LN Yes
JR Why hasnt she mentioned R1 too?
[NC challenges]
JR There's a level of vindictiveness against Du in this case
J Says isnt eveidence
JR I'll leave it . [reads re I mentioned to lawyer re prev issue w DU] What did u find difficult about the convo

LN I found it diff they were talking about the dr. It cld reflect that she cld be being nasty about the dr. I wasnt partic surprised SP was suspended. I just think u shld show respect to e'one what ever yr views are. I felt she was being disrespectful

JR Did u attend the lunch in Sept 23
LN Yes. Before staying in Trump hotel - her 50th BD.
JR Was DU discussed?
LN Yes, pretty much instantly. She talked about the dr working there for 3-4 wks, describing as a weirdo. S'one said why cant u live and let live.

LN She seemed full of hate and anger towards DU.
JR [new doc] The msg 17.09 was from s'one in the gp?
LN Yes, from Gina
JR [reads re picture of the weirdo. "No, the pic of that weirdo Beth"...I dint realise the weirdo she was referring to as Beth]

Did u ever hear SP using weirdo about Beth
LN Yes, at the lunch. SP msged the wrong person, Ginas partner, about the picture
JR [new doc] Did u leave the gp chat?
LN This is in Feb, after deciding to take the tribunal. I thought I might not go but regretted it.

And never did it again. I told others in the chat I wld be leaving and wldnt go to Benedorm and wldnt be with SP as we had different values
JR You talk about feeling diff in the CR. How many Band 5 use the CR?
LN U tend to work 13 shifts over the week. 7.30 to 8pm day or night.

LN Is very rare to meet drs in the CR.
JR [new doc] [reads re menstrual flood and looking at menstrual privacy stuff as well] What did u make of that?
LN [couldnt hear brief answer]
JR Nothing further
NC I'll need to take instructions after that evidence, maybe 20 mins

NC And I might need 20 [or 30?] cross
J In that case we'll break for now
[sound is very glitchy]

Bench returns but no sound yet
[sound of laughing on resumption]
[quiet again...]

[I think we are waiting for NC to return]
NC Good pm Miss Nicholl. What passed betwn u and Fiona Wisshart at lunch today?
She asked me about what I wanted for lunch
NC Why were u standing right in the corner?
LN I was charging my phone
NC Not doing yr best not to be seen?

LN No, charging my phone
NC [ new doc] This is what happened in Feb 2024 shortly after the xmas eve events in 23. You msged SP to say finding the sitn difficult and her objections to DU using the CR, am paraphrasing.Sps response is strikingly concilliatoty and gentle, no?

In some ways. Previously she'd been reaching out for info. She's made a point about a gay married MP. Why mention gay?
NC It's a gay married MP on her side in this issue. He point re DU not being a W or not in CR. Saying she has an issue w DU being a man

LN It's a way to say she's not homophobic. I dont see ehy she shld mention it "Her MP" wld be enough. She doesnt want to lose our friendship
NC We can see from this exchange y've suffered painfully from homophobia in yr own life?
LN Yes. Views have splintered up my whole famil

NC U went to Benidorm?
Yes
NC So she was gearing up to the case
LN SP agreed not to discuss it in front of me. Just one day in front of pool. SP said she wldnt discussed [when asked if was for LNs benefit]
NC Fair to ocnclude wasnt discuss for yr benefit

NC U were the only person who disagreed w Sandie
LN E'one has different views. Wld be happy for it to be discussed
NC This shows Sp is someone u can talk to and sort problems amiably.
LN This is a no of weeks before I wrote this. I wldnt say it was easy about that time

NC I'm talking about her msg back to you. She'd be gentle and not bite yr head off
LN I'd never had a face to face on this w her
NC Do u agree the others agrre w her?
LN It depends on ppl's stance re the CR. My issue is about her views and how she likely behave to the dr.

Ppl w have different views re being in a CR w a trans dr. No I'd never met him
NC But u had strong views on him for being a T woman
Yes
NC W/out any interaction w him
Yes
NC SP points out her stance has nothing to do w being gay?
LN My view was her being bigotted.

LN My son was gay, her child was gay. I feel I was making a point about bigotyr
NC But yr bunching things tog. The CR has nothing to do w CRs
No
NC It's understandable that concerns when a child gay
LN No. My only concern re my sons being gay was about bigotry

NC U just accept them as they are
Absolutely
NC But a M saying as a W, is a demand to accept as hes not?
No
NC E'one pretends to accept as a W?
LN I accept ppl as they are and show compassion and respect
NC being gay doesnt impact other ppl. A man saying is a W impacts other

JR I dont think that's fairly put
NC When a man says..
J Are u reasking the Q
NC Yes. When a man uses a Ws CR, do u accept it interferes w privacy of W
JR She's saying ppl are making a choice but most ppl are saying theyre being their authentic selves.

NC [repeats Q]
LN It dep on the indiv women. I persoanlly wld be happy to have got changed in the CR
NC Do u accept invasion of privacy of a'one who does reject
LN If thats how they feel, its how they feel. But I dont have a problem w it

NC [new doc re chat re justifying a man...rant over] Do u recall the exchange?
No. I wasnt participating much in the last 6 months. I can see its a debate about TW in the OLympics
NC About boxer Khelif. [reads re unfairness] U didnt contribute to the debate?
LN Not since May24

LN Only contributing the bare minimum
NC Look at p1598 - info in a different form. At the end of your long msg, its the msg about yr whole family becoming splintered about yr ?stepsons bigotted views
LN I'm saying Messenger isnt the right place to discuss this. It wasnt

me shutting her down. It's not the right place.
NC But u didnt shut the boxer convo down?
LN I wasnt taking part in it
JR I'm not sure the boxer's sex or GI has been determined
J U can raise in cross
NC U were still in then?
LN I dont recall seeing it and wasnt participatin

NC [new doc] Can you read - an exchange betwn "Gina Hardy" and SP where SP asking for further details re DUs previous complaint. She says the head boss told her in the MH team..She's talking about DU. DU had caused chaos in his prev job
LN Yes, she does seem to be saying that.

She got this info from a family relative, not directly from her
NC You stepped in to try to shut down that convo?
LN [long pause] Yes. I think it's the [pause] I did cos the day before and b4it had gone on. All this chat about the dr... I just thoughts it's enough Messenge chat

LN Yes, I was aware she was suspended
NC So reasonable for her to look for a lot of support from her friends
LN I think I did say early on Hope yr ok
NC U tried to shut down convos that cld help her
LN I said it wasnt approp to do on Chat [missed]

NC [new doc 1753] We see exchange betwn you and "Kate Eave". U tell her about poss of being a witness and deciding to do it. It's what Sp said they're interested in. Just to let u know. Kate replies that's fine
LN That's about leaving the chat
NC Yes. U say y've shared

chats w the board
LN Yes out of courtesy
NC And say it's about what SP has said, and possibly me too. Back to jokes re the Pakistan floods. Those 2 pages were among the msgs u gave to the baord. They're th only ones the board has produced for these proceedings

ok. Chat been going since 2018
NC There were over 2600 pages to look at. One single msg has been chosen from 7 yrs worth
LN So yr saying..
J Dont answer w a Q
LN Y
NC Do u think its fair to judge someones character from a few msgs in 7 yrs of chat?

LN I did submit. Thee's a lot of similar things...um..so, no that wasnt the only thing
NC Looking at the pages, no-one will disagree unpleasant jokes
Yes
NC No-one suggests she wrote them
No, but she shared it
NC Were u shocked by what she shared
Yes

NC remebering yr family suffering from homophobia, do u think she'd have apologised if she was called out?
No
NC She wasnt asked about them
No
NC Wld u be happy to be judged on 1 thing out of 7 yrs
LN There were 4 jokes, not 1. They decided not to submit the other 3

LN Yes, I was shocked [by them?]
NC [reads res orry if u think I'm racist] The laughter emoji is you
Yes. A shocked wld be a better response. I agreed it made her sound like a racist
NC A laughing reaction to her post. U told us u were thoroughly shocked at the time.

U didnt remonstrate, leave the group or say anything.
LN No. I have laughed and perhaps enabled and encouraged her to become.. you know.. enabled her to make these types of jokes. I wish I had remonstrated w her

NC The more imp point is u laughed along as the easy thing to do. An informal gp, thought to be in private, jokes and shock.
LN None of us laughed at her joke. She'd say this during convo, follow it up verbally w "this doesnt make me a racist"

NC Can we equally conclude yr a racist?
LN I didnt laugh at the joke but later. I've encouraged her and shld have spoken up earlier
NC Yr reg says about pat confidentiality
Yes
NC So speaking about patients wld break their rules?
LN Yes

NC [new doc] Look under the inserted pseudname "eva Baird". A patients name was mentioned in full by you
LN Yes, and that was unprofessional, and a breach of regualtion
NC Also the patients complaints?
Yes
NC So from 6000 page chat, cld u say u have no respect for yr pat's

privacy?
I would say is disappointing and unprofessional. Can u repeat the Q?
NC [repeats Q re fairness from 6000 pages]
LN If I was a patient I cld be seen as s'one who didnt respect their patients
NC Is that the wordt thing that cld be found against u from this chat?

LN I have no idea. I would hope so but is 7 yrs worth
NC There's evidence in this chat isnt there, that [no sound but NC may be looking for page] Turn please to p1709. This is a 1:1 chat betwn u and Gina
Yes
NC Gina says Sandra is pissing me off. She's been texting for a pic

of the weirdo but sent a pic of me back. Gina is annoyed w Sandie.
Yes
NC She'd asked the wrong person. But her husband was having a difficult time due to personal issues
LN I dont know abou tthe [muted] birthday
NC Gina had a had a few drinks at this point

I dont know
NC It wldnt be surprising tho
LN No. I dint know thou
NC As far as she was concerned and in reality was a man asking to be in a CR w ppl getting into their underwear. Rude but not unfair to describe him as a weirdo?

LN I dont understand
NC [describes a manly man in the CR]
LN I dont think so
NC U dont?
LN I'd need far more background b4 calling someone a weirdo
NC Are u saying that if a man insisted being in the CR w Women to believe it wldnt provoke outrage in all the women?

[silence]
NC They'd take it in their stride?
LN [pause] Maybe call the police? [missed] I feel I'd try to find out more about the sitn and maybe phone the police
NC Y'd be outraged and wonder about his motives, y'd think a voyeur or exhibitionist?

LN I wouldnt call him a creep or a weirdo. You might exacerbate the situation by calling him a weirdo so you wld find more information.
NC [new doc] [LN finding correct page] U heard about DUs behaviour in Brightman May in his previous post - from the chat?
LN Yes, I read

Ginas relative talking about DU. Not heard this from anywhere else
NC The alleg is he was causing chaos for ppl incl dementia sufferers over pronouns
LN Yes, that rings a bell. I might have heard elsewhere.
NC Isnt that horrible bullying behaviour

LN Its secondhand info. I dont think it's reliable information
J How much longer NC?
NC Probably another 5 mins
J Ok
NC Turn to p1752. Look at msg at top of that page from Gina [reads re abuse from pat and his partner...how can a 35 yr old get nappy rash.

It's his human right said partner. Whats the ABDL community about do you know?
LN It's not one I'd heard on then. Its adult baby diaper loving community. About ppl who like to be trated as babies. Is Isabelle says hear [sound issues]

NC U were one of the ppl who found it funny?
LN Yes. I'd not heard of it before
NC [new doc] Look at the comment where u say Ru Pauls drag race [reads re hoping her sons dont get into this]
LN I was making a joke.
NC [new page]
LN Can I go back to drag race?

LN I'm making a joke that they're possibly going to dress up in drag. They wear exag clothes and makeup. I dont get yr point
NC Are u saying u dont like it as a parody of womanhood? U were making a point that y'd be pretty unhappy if yr sons dressed up in drag?

LN No, I'd try to help them
NC Not consistent
LN Its just a joke
NC [new page] MJ, Boards HR person. Sorry, Leudon - [reads re having a trans member on the team, I found this, does it look right. The bullet points incl drag king/ queen/ anyone who Ids as trans.

A defn from Stonewall
LN I didnt know
NC Are u t'phobic then?
LN No drag kings and queens are ppl that entertain
NC Look back at 1751, incontext of ABDL community, we see quite a bit of chat following on re letter after LGBTABCDE..we're going to run out of letters

NC There's quite a bit of joking around about trans and LGBT. SP doesnt join in does she?
LN I dont know. She cld have been on her way to work
NC But she's in the chat on this page re being serious. She dsnt say anything unpleasant does she?

LN Sorry, I'm trying to get context of the whole convo. I dint really understand what Gina's talking about
NC But Gina explains it. She's making fun of LGBTQIA. Its a parody
Yes. [unclear]
NC U thoroughly dislike SP dont u?
LN I'm v sad about it all. We're clearly different

LN ppl
NC You have it in for her, dont you?
LN No. It's something I feel strongly about and needed to do
NC [new doc] p1709 you say "I cannot stand her w laughing emoji
LN I dont like what she stands for, no
NC On p1711, you talk about her being struck off and hop she is

LN No I havent got it in for her. Ppl need to understand what kind of character she is
NC [new page] U say if anyone was to ask me about SPs character, I wld. She shld be struck off. U express willingness to make a statement to put the boot in

LN The public need to know
JR talking in here
J Dont do this
NC U end w "she shld be struck off, I hope she is". So this is an attempt to end her career
LN I think its important for ppl to understand Sandies character. The bigotry she has doesnt have a place in nursing.

We shld be showing ppl empathy and respect and I dont think she does that
NC Has she been reported to the NMC
LN Not aware
NC Dont u have a duty to report
LN I know theres been an Ix.
NC The board wanted a hatchet job and u were willing
LN As I said I'd be willing to do

this. I've heard her call a TW a weirdo and lookat disgust a W in burkhas and I dont think its acceptable
J We have no Qs
JR U were asked about being the only one who disagreed w her stance. U replied re yr concern re likely behav to the dr

LN She wld have been dismissive, rude and not able to communicate in a reasonable manner. Be nasty to the dr.
JR It was put to u re the difference betwn gay and trans being who they are. Pretending to be something they're not
LN I feel TW dont have a choice.

LN They just want to live their life and be their true selves. Have a peaceful life. They shld be respected for that.
JR Going back to the gp chat and mentioning a name. Has Eva Bear mentioned the full name of the pat?
Yes, she asked who it is
JR Re referring to Beth as a

weirdo
LN Its not approp to do this. Shld be more respectful and show compassion to ppl
J Thanks LM for her evidecne
JThat concludes the r's case
JR Yes
NC Apart from MC tmrw
J We will finish the evidence at 4pm tomorrow. How do we shoehorn everything in?

NC We may have another short witness. I need to have a think
J We'll have a 5 min break.
[break]

NC The witness is in SE London. She made a dec over the weekend and will struggle to get hear tmrw
J Do u wish to recall the C
NC Yes.
J In which order if we allow
NC Prob the C first
J How long cross?
JR 30-45 mins
J Difficult for u to witness [missed]

NC Sandra Ross (from groupchat) and Emma Moore (admin for Sex Matters who took a call on Fri am from s'one working for NHS Fife)
J So purely hearsay
NC Yes
JR What issue does this go to
NC We've heard a lot of gossip about the C.

If u hear from Miss Moore y'll hear the evidence she was too scared to give
J Why 30 mins?
JR SM have a partic perspective who will view these matters thru a campaigning lens. How will they overcome this lens
NC All witnesses give evidence thru their own lens

JR None have a campaigning lens
J We'll have to be v careful re timing. Give me a moment to think about...
J Let me make some notes. I propose we start at 9.30 tmrw. 9.30-11.30 cross of MC [continues listing times] We'll have to build in short breaks. Incl 2-2.15 by CVP.

[seems to be timetabling in the new witnesses]
J on those times which have no slippage, is extremely tight but seems to me the only way it would work
JR I think we need to do this
J Let me talk to my colleagues as I havent discussed it with them

NC It will be hard for the stenographers to finish by 4pm
J They will have 5 min breaks every hr. I note yr cross NC went far over yr prediction. So both of u think v carefully overnight over the Qs u want to ask. So be here ready to go at 9.15

J We havent yet decided re the CVP decision and will have a discussion and come back to you in the morning

[SESSION ENDS]

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