Thread by @tribunaltweets

We are expecting a 9:30 am start today in Toshack vs GeoAmey. Background on the case, yesterday's reporting can be found here:
open.substack.com/pub/tribunaltw…

Mr Toshack (DT) asserts that he was was dismissed because of his gender critical beliefs. His appeal against his dismissal was subsequently upheld. He is claiming harassment, discrimination and indirect discrimination on the grounds of his gender critical beliefs.

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@tribunaltweets2 Abbreviations
DT/C - David Toshack, claimant

GA/R - Geo Amey Ltd, respondent

MG - Margaret Gribbon, solicitor for claimant

DH - David Hay KC, advocate for the claimant

PCO - Police Custody Officer

ITC - introductory training course

@tribunaltweets2 MM - Michael McLaughlin, advocate for the respondent
SH - Sarah Harvey, training course instructor
CH - Chris Hutton, training course instructor
GC - Gender critical or sex realist beliefs
BITWB - Born in the wrong body
TW - Trans woman, person born male who identifies as female

@tribunaltweets2 TM - Trans man - person born female who identifies as male
DEI - Diversity, equity and inclusion
SPS - Scottish Prison Service

@tribunaltweets2 DH finished his direct examination of DT yesterday. Today we are expecting cross examination by MM for the Rs.

@tribunaltweets2 We begin, DT returns to the witness stand.
MM - I'm going to start by asking you qs about your evidence from y'day. You spoke about your daughter, that's the first time I've heard any of that. But I will be as sensitive as I can with my qs.

@tribunaltweets2 MM - some qs about your faith. Are you Church of Scotland.
DT - yes
MM what core principles of Christianity have influenced your life
DT - roughly speaking the 10 Commandments, Jesus as a role model, I'm not some Bible thumping religious zealot.
MM - I'm not suggesting you are

@tribunaltweets2 and you're not relying on religion as protected belief, but as a foundation of your gender critical beliefs.
DT - yes, its the 10 Commandments and Jesus as a role model
MM - including love your neighbour as yourself
DT - yes
MM - you said you started back to church regularly

@tribunaltweets2 years ago, what reasons for that
DT - my father died 3 years ago, and we moved to Kirkcaldy and wanted to be part of the community
MM - can you tell me more about your daughter and her circumstances
DT - it's confusing, she says 'I'm trans', its more androgynous clothes etc

@tribunaltweets2 but I don't know what you'd call it.
MM - did she change her name
DT - yes
MM - to a male name
DT - androgynous name
MM - what name
J - I don't think we need the exact name, privacy issues
MM - <shrugs> What about your religious beliefs informs your GC beliefs

@tribunaltweets2 DT - Adam and Eve, when you're born, for millenia, what determines your sex is your observable parts, for example a penis. There are people with DSDS but that's a tiny percentage doesn't change male/female
MM - you were asked yesterday about people who changed their bodies

@tribunaltweets2 and you said that's not right. What's not right about it.
DT - Regardless of what changes you make to your body, is it a mental health problem, is it a social contagion, changing the outside doesn't change the person or their sex.
MM - you said 'I don't believe that is how

@tribunaltweets2 'it' should be dealt with it. What is the 'it'.
DT - the issue of transgender
MM - how should it be dealt with
DT - through therapy
MM - what kind of therapy
DT - I'm not an expert but I believe it's a mental health issue and that's how it should be dealt with

@tribunaltweets2 MM - your beliefs came into greater focus in last 10-15 years, do you remember saying that?
DT - yes
MM - you said it was pushed out into the mainstream, can you elaborate by that
DT - I never remember the question of whats a man or a woman ever coming up in the past, when I was

@tribunaltweets2 growing up. Nobody ever talked about it, we all knew what a man and a woman was.
MM - what has pushed it out into the mainstream, or who
DT - hard to say, lots of layers of it, certainly been pushed through social media, where it's come from and how I don't know, there are

@tribunaltweets2 people much more intelligent than me talking about this.
MM - what are those layers
DT - it's difficult for me to say sir, I'm not the right person
MM - lets go back to your childhood, you didn't hear about it or discuss it
DT - well the only trans you heard about was

@tribunaltweets2 transvestites who were men dressed in women's clothes, and transsexuals who had surgeries and stuff. But we never heard 'transgender' thats only become a thing in the last 10/15 years.
MM - you say you've only heard about it the last 10/15 years can you expand on that

@tribunaltweets2 DT - it only seems to have exploded in the last 10 years or so, people out on marches, all over the media and social media
MM - could part of the explanation be that people are feeling more comfortable to talk about it and be open about it, that's why you're hearing that

@tribunaltweets2 DT - maybe
MM - homosexuality was illegal and hidden in the 50s and 60s and now can be more open about it. Can you see the parallels there?
DT - perhaps
MM - what did you mean by 'everyone has to accept it'
DT - I've sat in training and meetings, Stonewall training

@tribunaltweets2 where you didn't dare to speak up, that hashtag #nodebate , you had to accept it, you couldn't speak up
MM - you said beautiful young women who changed themselves to their detriment, talk about that
DT - I've seen pictures of them, taking hormones, changing how they dress, its so

@tribunaltweets2 sad to see, it's like they've been told there's something wrong with them.
MM - who's telling them, they wouldn't be seeking the drugs and surgeries if they didn't believe that
DT - I wish I knew, everyone who's pushing this ideology, I wish I could have inoculated my daughter

@tribunaltweets2 against it, taken her out of it
MM - so you think the social contagion creates mental illness and then leads to mental illness, that leads to seeking drugs, surgeries, etc
DT - I don't know if its the social contagion or if they already have mental health issues, I've heard that

@tribunaltweets2 many have other issues, self harm, autistism, other issues, listed to a podcast by Pam (Lionel?) Shriver.
MM - what is the research that Shriver did to come these conclusions
DT - I don't remember, it was some time ago
MM - so are you saying that the vast majority of trans

@tribunaltweets2 are mentally ill and subject to this social contagion, are you making vast generalisations about trans people.
DT - what is the chance that 3 girls, best friends, in the same class are BITWB
MM - so you're saying the vast majority of trans people are confused, vulnerable

@tribunaltweets2 and mentally ill.
DT - I believe that is generally the case.
MM - is there any research that supports your viewpoint ?
DT - I've watched hours of debate
MM - I'm not talking about debates, I'm talking about medical scientific research

@tribunaltweets2 DT - I'm sure that what I have been watching, they were referencing what studies they had done and were relying on.
MM - lets go on to your social media posts, you described your style as satirical and mocking, <identifying DT posts provided to FSU>.

@tribunaltweets2 <bundle shuffling>
MM - posts have been wrongly labelled in the bundle, correcting the page numbers. Turn to page 646.... but before I ask you about it, we're not allowed to ask you about legal advice you had, so I'm not asking you about that. What did the FSU ask you for?

@tribunaltweets2 DT - they asked me to send them the 'worst' stuff I had posted, what they might term as 'extreme'.
MM - the Rs have not called you an extremist'
DT - they called my posts extremist, GA called my posts extermist
MM - what does fist bump and bicep emoji convey

@tribunaltweets2 DT - agreement and strength
MM - ref to two people as apparent male sexual deviants one interviewing the other, you used a laughing emoji, do you find it humorous
DT - you know that saying, if you don't laugh, you'll cry. No, I don't find contacting underage boys for sex

@tribunaltweets2 humorous.
MM - did you refer to other person as a sexual deviant because they were a man who trying to dress as a woman and failing
DT - no, that's a man, everyone knows thats a man, and he is an autogynephile, (AGP),
MM - so you think all men who transition are AGPs?

@tribunaltweets2 DT - no, I can't say all of them, but i would say the majority.
MM - I have the impression that you have a dimmer view of men who transition to women than the other way around, is that true and why
DT - yes, I do believe that. And it's because men are more dangerous to women

@tribunaltweets2 and women pose no danger to men.
MM - you're generalising here, do you believe that all men who transition are a danger to women
DT - well we have to generalise when dealing with groups of people
MM - do you believe that all men who transition are sexual predators

@tribunaltweets2 DT - no, I don't but they are still men and still a danger to women
MM - but we're not talking about men, we are talking about men who have transitioned to women
DT - women don't sexually assault men, men assault women
MM - do you draw a distinction between FtM is a mental

@tribunaltweets2 health issue and MtF is a sexual fetish
DT - a MtF is either a mental health condition or a sexual fetish.
MM - another social media post, you had started with GA at this point, JKR post, I want to ask you about that, at the bottom there's a heart emoji, thumbs up, who's that

@tribunaltweets2 <name>
DT - my mum
MM - you spoke about moral cowardice, who is it who's displaying this cowardice, (reads out post) who is it
DT - lots of normal people I speak to, they don't believe in any of this stuff, but a lot of people in corporate society, it the workplace, in training

@tribunaltweets2 things, people will be whispering to each other, what rubbish this is, they won't speak out. they know that they will get a black mark, be ostracised, be passed over for promotion or like me, get the sack. They are afraid for their livelihood.
MM - what is your evidence base

@tribunaltweets2 DT - my personal experience
MM - you referred to normal people, what did you mean by that
DT - brickies, mechanics, people who don't work for big orgs where this stuff is pushed and they don't have Stonewall training.
MM - we'll come back to DEI, but you believe that everyone

@tribunaltweets2 who does speak out lacks courage
DT - i think a lot of it is a lack of moral courage, but I can see why, there are real consequences
MM - <post about SNP gov) why did you call them corrupt,
DT - the SNP wanted to introduce gender self ID, then being asked about Isla Bryson,

@tribunaltweets2 is he a man, fudging the answer.
MM - so any government that tries to follow the interest of trans people is morally corrupt
DT - yes
MM - <about BBC Female Footballer> <Model of the Year> these are are laughing emojis, are these meant to be jokes

@tribunaltweets2 DT - I'm laughing at the insanity of a female model of the year being given to a man, it's completely insane
MM - how do you know that person is a man, they may have had surgery, taken drugs
DT - no surgery or drugs will change the fact that they are a biological man

@tribunaltweets2 MM - <puberty blocker ban> - advocates for prosecution and jail terms for people pushing this ideology, with a laughing emoji - you think this is appropriate
DT - maybe what I think is wrong is that people are pushing this dreadful ideology are not appropriate

@tribunaltweets2 MM - you think this serious issue should be mocked
DT - I don't know how to say this, but I think every ideology can be mocked, or its better to mock than to do actual harms
MM - do you believe that people involved in puberty blockers should be prosecuted and if convicted put in

@tribunaltweets2 prison
DT - yes, I do, some of them
MM - why only some
DT - it depends on how big a part they played
MM - <start thinking of an excuse...> what is are those colours, mine is black and white
DT - I don't know what the colours are
MM - posts dated after you started your course

@tribunaltweets2 and after your first DEI discussion
DT - I couldn't say exactly
MM - <Trump will get rid of trans in military, punish those involved in puberty blockers> I got the impression that you have fallen out of love with the Army
DT - I left the Army because my knees are knackered and

@tribunaltweets2 my age.
MM - doesn't the Army have some of the same features around trans
DT - there's a massive disconnect between the training command in the Army and the lads on the ground
MM - in the whole Army
DT - I can't speak for the whole Army
MM - what does diversity mean in DEI

@tribunaltweets2 DT - if there's a hundred people it can't be 100 white men, it needs to be a percentage of women, black people etc. It shouldn't be that way it should be the 100 people best for the job
MM - what does inclusion mean in the corporate world
DT - it's including people who are

@tribunaltweets2 historically under-represented
MM - why do you call that insanity
DT - it's one way street, and if you disagree then you are excluded. I believe it should be a meritocracy.
MM - surely DEI is about a lot more than that, not just about quotas
DT - quotas lower standard, the only

@tribunaltweets2 way to include everyone is to lower standard and I don't think that's correct
MM - lots of orgs have DEI policies, your view is that having those policies and procedures, that will inevitably lead to the standards of performance being reduced
DT - broadly speaking, I agree

@tribunaltweets2 MM - you don't see DEI as a way of encouraging people who are disabled, women, homosexuals, etc into the workplace and society
DT - I believe it comes from a good place, but I think that merit is a better basis, who wants a hand up, isn't it better to earn what you have

@tribunaltweets2 MM - you see trans as inexplicably linked to DEI
DT - not necessarily
MM - <describes trump post>
DT - it's just because he was dealing with the two issues
MM <Zuckerberg altered post> using the term trans is a negative insulting terrible term

@tribunaltweets2 DT - it's derogatory, not as bad as you described
MM - you think trans people are weird
DT - it is a strange thing to want to change your sex, it is weird
MM - <trump post> why is it good to end unconscious bias training
DT - I think it achieves the opposite of what is intended

@tribunaltweets2 MM - do you believe that unconscious bias (UB) is a real thing
DT - maybe
MM - the objective of UB is to raise awareness of bias, why does you think that
DT - I'm not explaining it very well, but it's because it's being rammed down people's throats

@tribunaltweets2 MM - I've been in a number of UB trainings and its about raising awareness and that you might align yourself with people like you and not different from you, what's your experience
DT - my experience is different from yours, and the people who I've done it with think the same,

@tribunaltweets2 MM - you call DEI poison, do you think its bad in all orgs
DT - in my experience when people get promoted based on it are not competent, they are bad leaders, and bad for organisation
MM - what do you mean about people disavowing it
DT - People who went along with it and when

@tribunaltweets2 it goes away, they turn around and say I never agreed with it.
MM - who are these people
DT - from my experience, I know
MM - <Sandie Peggie> pictures of Dr Upton, soft focus, looked too much like a woman
DT - only showing one side of the story he's a biological man,

@tribunaltweets2 pictures were only of him looking like a woman
MM - who was that, television, photographers
DT - who ever was taking the pictures, using the filuters
MM <cancellation of Pride month> you don't like Pride Month
DT - no need for it
MM - gay people have same rights as everyone

@tribunaltweets2 DT - yes, that's what i think
MM - what is the purpose of pride month, why do they happy
DT - nowadays I don't see a good reason for it, what are they marching for, i could see it years ago, when gay people didn't have the same rights as straight people, I could have seen the

@tribunaltweets2 point years ago, but why now.
MM - it's just that community, the LGBTQ+ community celebrating their greater freedoms, where is the harm
DT - I would say where's the need? I know there a number of LGB people who don't want to be associated with it. They don't agree with pride.

@tribunaltweets2 MM - you didn't answer the q. Why is it a bad thing
DT - I did not say its a bad thing, I said it's not needed.
MM - even if you are right and it's not needed, where is the harm
DT - I'm not saying there's harm, I'm saying it's not needed. As a military person, there's only

@tribunaltweets2 one Armed Forces Day
MM - why do you want it cancelled
DT - there's no need for it, no rights that gay people don't have. It was marching for equal rights, they have equal rights. Why do they need it
MM - why do you want to get rid of it
DT - I don't understand why pride month

@tribunaltweets2 when they have the same rights as everyone else.
MM - that's the end of the social media posts,
J - shall we have a comfort break, back at 10 past.
Rises.

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