Thread by @tribunaltweets

We will be returning for the afternoon session of day 2 of David Toshack (DT) v GeoAmey Ltd at 1.55pm to continue DTs cross examination at Edinburgh Employment Tribunal court.
He claims harassment, discrimination and indirect discrimination on the grounds of his GC beliefs.

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Abbreviations:
DT/C - David Toshack, Claimant
DH - David Hay, KC, for claimant
MG - Margaret Gribbon, solicitor for claimant
GA/R - GeoAmey Ltd, Respondent, a British company specialising in prisoner transport
MM - Michael McLaughlin for respondent

J - Judge Amanda Jones, sitting alone
ITC - initial training course
CH - Chris Hutton, course trainer
SH - Sarah Harvey, course trainer
SW - Stephan Weir, trainee with DT
PP - preferred pronouns
BITWB - born in the wrong body

We resume.
MM Good pm Mr Toshack. I want to look at a couple of policies. The 1st on p119. Take a look at this. Its the SPS Operational Guidelines dated Feb 24. In the introd section says [reads re ensuring T ppl rights are protected and a safe and incl environment]

MM The pre-amble says [reads about the contractor and the initials that rep GA. SPS requires GA to follow its policy re TG prisoners]
DT Yes
MM On p131, re recording data [reads re accurate and consistent info must be recorded and staff shld accurately record that preferred name and pronouns are respected during time in custody

DT Yes
MM On p156, as part of the same document. Use of names and pronouns in official paperwork. They're legal name shld be used in paperwork. If not legally changed name can record preferred name and pronouns. These are the rules set down
DT Yes

MM Terms commonly used [ reads re respecting w what the prisoner wants. It's disrespectful and may be harmful to use the wrong terms about ppl. It's important to ask for the language they want and understand language is constantly evolving. Dignity and respect is vital. U see this
DT Yes

MM This is the overarching policy of SPS dated 2023. Point 1 is the intent [reads re obligations of SPS that seeks to ensure safety and wellbeing of prisoners]
Point 2 is policy principles [reads re mgmt and support of TGs and their GI will be recognised and respected wherever they are accomodated

MM You'll see yr position is against the SPS guidance
DT It seems reasonable for me to use their name and I dont need to use PP. It's treating w dig and respect
MM You've said yr passionate about this issue and said it's a form of mental illness, a many FtM as sexual

J I said at risk of being. You used the word potential re sexual predators
MM U cant guarantee y'll always use their name. Cant guarantee this and cld misgender
DT I wldnt misgender anyone
MM U cant guarantee y'll always use their name
DT I dont see why I cldnt use their name

MM Wld u abolish the GR legislation and GR as a PC, if u could?
DT I dont know about legislation
MM Come on. Y've been v candid. It's a PC under the EA2010. Should it be a PC?
DT I dont know if I agree w the EA in and of itself. In my mind, the only ppl...Nobody's equal

DT Some are born into poverty. I'm not absol sure if I agree w the act
MM U know the EA aaplies to lots of PCs [lists some] U dont think there's discrim against these ppl and they need protection
DT I'm sure there is. I'm happy to treat ppl w respect regardless of yr PCs

MM Why dont u agree w the EA if u agree there's discrim
DT [missed]
MM We see a diff side to yr views now. I think you're anti-trans
DT Thats not a fair comment
MM Y've called it insanity and some ppl as sex predators. Called DEI shite and insanity and used tranny & weird in

posts
DT You say I'm anti-T and have a problem w indivs. It's the ideology
MM I havent said u have antipathy to partic indivs. I'm saying yr against the whole community
DT Absol not
MM It's about the whole ideology that you can be BITWB
DT I dont beleive it. I'm not anti it

MM U have sanitised yr views for this ET
DT No I've explained them. U can dislike an ideology but not hate individuals who believe it or are in it
MM You have mocked certain T indivs eg Dr Upton, a model, and sportsperson. U singled them out, so u have gone for indivs

Dt Its not the indivs themselves but the ideology that's allowed things to happen. I was v polite w my daughters friends
MM If this is their true identity and the person and gender they are. For u to mock the whole belief system is attacking these individuals personally
DT No. It's not true. I dont think an athesist is attacking me

DT They can mock me and my ideas. It soesnt meant they hate me
MM Yr anti Pride and DEI as a concept
DT No
MM Yr splitting hairs
DT It's not just me. I have friends who are gay who believe the same thing
M That doesnt mean its ok
DT But it doesnt make me a hateful bigot

MM Y're saying I cant be antigay as I have gay friends. All these concepts - DEI, LGBTQ- are all a woke thing that y're against. We can see u lump them tog incl unconc bias training in yr head. Yr anti- diversity, unclusion and Pride
DT I dont hate anyone
MM I say u have antipathy to them. I didnt use the word hate. Yr against what they stand for and what they believe

DT They dont beleive my Christian belief. Are they anti me?
MM It's the mocking, emojis and sarcasm. They display to the worls anf this ET u have a deep antipathy to these ideas and ppl
DT My words may be found offensive but that language isnt uncommon in my world. Swearing etc

DT Its the environment I grew up in. It's not extremist.
MM So you think it's ok to be [missed]
MM In the Army u followed procedures. It's full of rules and proceedures that have to be followed.
DT In general, yes
MM It's rule based and u were there for 15 yrs. Rules have to be followed
DT We did what we felt best at the time when yr out on yr own and u occas go a little bit rogue. So it's not 100% true

MM In a diff context rules are v important in prisons as some present dangers to others
DT Yes
MM It;s important that ppl know what's going to happen and u said it's important to write things down
DT Yes
MM CH was going to discuss this. U can have vulnerablr T ppl

MM So great care must be taken w their GI
DT There was something by a trainer saying it was to stop them getting at people [??]
MM There was a violent outburst where PCOs didnt respect a prionsers GI. There is scope for these flash points
DT Why I'd use their name
MM Is it reasonable

DT I think so. It's a workaround. I cld ask someone more senior or a colleague for advise
MM It's in the policy
MM It asked how the ID and want to be referred to
DT I cld ask for advice
MM If they say that's a TW and u must use F PPs
DT I can use there name
MM U have a choice betwn 1 box and another

MM Everything flows from the gender on the form. It doesnt matter how many ppl u speak to
DT It cld be possible to have a colleague to fill it in. There is a possible workaround so not no workaround
MM So the whole rule book is rewritten cos of you. They'd need to be rewritten

MM Cos u dont believe
DT I'm not asking for any of that but asking to look at reasonable workarounds. It's possible and reasonable
MM Its a v stressful environment that's potentially abusive, self harm and violent and u want ppl to think of a workaround constantly

DT There's unlikely to be many of them though
MM U have no knowledge of the nos
DT It;s not unreasonable to imagine its not v many
MM This wasnt the job for you
Dt It;s a v suitable job for ex-military
MM But u werent prepared to follow the rule book

DT I was prepared to treat w respect
[sound glitch]
MM We've heard about yr shock. How did u feel in the days after
DT Pretty rubbish as never been sacked before
MM But u went about yr business. U werent medically unwell?
[sound glitchy]

MM Looking at p658 and the dates. On 4 Feb 2025..a month later y're joking on SM. On 8th Feb you post re NHS Fife case w laughter emojis. On ? Jan, 4 days after yr dismissal, u seem in pretty good form talking about censureship on SM. 3.5 wks later yr sarcastic re the Labour Party

MM On 20th Jan u post again. Yr pretty active and yr normal self on SM. U weren't really that upset
DT I dont think that indicates how I felt about being sacked. Not giving any indic of how I felt
MM Yr emojis and sarcasm is consistent w yr style. And indicates that gen yr

mood was good and u were on positive form. Do u want to comment
DT I'm a pretty +ve person but it doesnt mean I wasnt upset
MM I'm a pretty resilient person. There's nothing wrong w being ?
DT Ont ehday I was shocked, humilaited and embarressed
MM But u bounced back
DT Yeah

MM U were with Sky for 20 yrs, why did u leave
DT [missed] re after being on leave and loving being on tour
MM U did the FT training roles in the Army
DT F/t reserve
MM Pay
DT I was a corporal so £32-33K a yr.

MM What skills did u learn in those 2 decades
DT Completion skills
MM Not much info as y've not given much eg team leader
DT That was sold a certain way and I wanted the early shift.
MM Was it a call centre?
DT No. [missed]

MM On p515, we see 28 Feb applic to Fife. Was this yr first applic
DT I think so. The army one might not be there and I think was earlier
MM Seasonable operative?
DT It's a country park job eg cutting grass there
MM On p596, we see - it's taken u 2 mnths to apply for something

MM Then another applic 2 months later. what did this one involve
DT [missed]
MM 14 days later an applic for a roadworker
DT Digging, putting cones out
MM So 3 jobs in 4 months? All w the council and ? experience
DT I have got experience as worked on building sites before. U didnt necess need experience. And I was w Army for 2 weeks in March

[missed]
MM 3 jobs doesnt qualify for applying.
DT Theres no tmany jobs out there suitable that I can apply for
MM yr a telephony professional and a trainer. But u havent applied for these kind of jobs
DT I dont want to go backwards. I live working w my hands and outdoors

DT I like working in teams so I didnt have to be on my own
MM On p599, a notif re jobs being filled. What was attached?
DT [missed - sound ] It was too far away. I was disappointed by the Cromby one as v close to my house.
MM What was the pay
DT Prob about the same
MM Which location was

over an hour away?
DT [lists jobs] I wasnt keen on travelling over the bridge
MM Is yr mortgage paid off
J I think it's being suggested that u dont need to work and havent tried v hard
DT My wife works 2 night shifts a wk so not an awful lot of money

[cant hear]
MM Are u looking for 40 hrs
DT I wanted to build it up
MM Are u confident y'll get more jobs and earn more
DT Yes
MM £12-15K
DT If I can get 3-4 days a week that'd be good
MM Y've been at it since April, so 6 months. Do u enjoy the work currently
DT I', happy doing what I'm doing

DH Thank you DT. I'm going to ask u some Qs. There was a Q re the potential no of T prisoners and the SPS doc on p98. A policy summary so it might be slightly different. On p99 is the SPS document. On the preceeding page we have a doc saying policy summary

DH This talks about the proportion of prisoners who are trans. Were u provided to SPS policy docs during yr ITC? Were you given them or seen any
DT [missed - sound]
DH You were taken to yr appeal doc at p579, and asked Qs about the contents. U were asked reference to workarounds

DH and you said you dont know. On p580, these paras [read re GN pronouns and equal treatment] Was this yr workaround u had in mind?
DT In para 3. Yes, I could use gender neutral language and their name
DH You were asked Qs re content of notes of 7 Jan meeting last yr starting p572.

DH Both the content and what might not be there. Now y've looked at the docs. If you'd had an opportunity at the meeting to offer comment on these notes wld u have raised some things?
DT ??
DH Re yr beliefs and views of T people, u had Qs about yr steps to inform yr beliefs/ research. What have u informed yr position for yrself
DT Watched the news. Listened to Profs on YTube. Well respected authors on YTube.

DH As well as reading books u were asked about research on these issues.
DT I would relook at videos and then do further research online. I trusted these professors and authors.
J I have no Qs for you. What about SW coming
DH He wasnt working but cldnt come today

DH He should arrive at 9.30 and the other two are coming with half an hour apart. I shld be finished by 12.30 tomorrow.
J We're running ahead of schedule. I'd like to press ahead quickly re submissions [missed potential timings - sound is quite muffled]

J We'll return 10am tomorrow then.

Court adjourned

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