Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good afternoon. This is Day 3, pm session#1 of Toshack vs GeoAmey Ltd, from the Edinburgh Employment Tribunal. We expect to start at 1.30pm

Mr Toshack (DT) asserts that he was dismissed because of his gender critical beliefs. His appeal against his dismissal was subsequently upheld. He is claiming harassment, discrimination and indirect discrimination on the grounds of his gender critical beliefs.

Our Substack with background on the case and reporting threads from earlier days of the tribunal can be found here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/toshack-vs-g…

Our live tweeting is not a verbatim transcript. We attempt to report as much of what we hear in court as possible. We make every to report accurately and do so in good faith. We make frequent use of abbreviations; see the Substack page if meaning is not obvious. We will correct any substantive inadvertent factual errors that are brought to our attention promptly. Our reporting is best understood when read as a whole.

Abbreviations
DT/C - David Toshack, claimant
GA/R - Geo Amey Ltd, respondent
MG - Margaret Gribbon, solicitor for claimant
DH - David Hay KC, advocate for the claimant
PCO - Police Custody Officer

ITC - introductory training course
J/AJ - Employment Judge Amanda Jones, sitting alone
SW- Stephan Weir, trainee with DT

MM - Michael McLaughlin, advocate for the respondent
SH - Sarah Harvey, training course instructor
CH - Chris Hutton, training course instructor
GC - Gender critical or sex realist beliefs
BITWB - Born in the wrong body
TW - Trans woman, person born male who identifies as female

TM - Trans man - person born female who identifies as male
DEI - Diversity, equity and inclusion
SPS - Scottish Prison Service
PP - Preferred pronouns
BITWB - born in the wrong body

LL Laura Laughland, Prison Officer
PF Phil Fairlee - Prison Officer Association POA

PER Person Escort Record
PCO Prison Custody Officer

We believe the next witness will be Sarah Harvey, ITC Trainer

MM how long did you work there?
SH about 8 years
MM So you did the ITC
SH yes
MM describe what’s involved

SH collecting prisoners etc
MM typical vehicle ?
SH two prisoners. One driver, other officers
MM next job?
SH I requested to go part time, back into education.
Also documentation.

MM involved in reviewing or drafting policies?
SH yes but then goes to a panel
MM what qualifications?
SH counselling. Complex cases, mental health concerns, I felt knowledge, education would help

MM next move?
SH logistics, collection, appointments. Presentation of. Researching, publishing documentation of serious incidents, assault, self harm

MM any dialogue across SPS?
SH Yes some contracts info
MM safeguarding ?
SH yes a couple of years. A cluster of locations, travel time. Ensuring staff across. Interested in standards across locations.

SH safeguarding team, compliance, we conduct any investigations internally or externally for the SPS. Assaults on staff, escapes, self harm

MM have you received training for Safeguarding?
SH yes including for transgender. Based on the management of transgender.
J - who delivered the training?
SH SPS
MM p 99 ..

SH yes training based on
MM 2024 document
SH yes
MM look at p 220 2024 description. What involvement do you have?
SH I created this document
MM physically drafted it?
SH yes
MM reference the GRA I take it policies incorporated ?
SH yes

MM p 224 transgender must be allowed to adopt and addressed by us as the gender they identify. This is your drafting?
SH yes

MM p 226. Rights for T people . The risks associated - can you describe?
SH self harm. Showing signs of, or harassed access , needs to identified as. Seen examples of where this hasn’t been followed and causes escalation.
MM for example?
SH self harm to themselves. Also officers are sat either side of the prisoner and reference to prisoner unfortunately assaulted officers

MM p 451. Trans woman here. Name she wishes to be known by. Legal name goes in and name goes in as alias *sound unclear*

MM 7 January 2025. Session training this first session. Had you met Toshack before?
SH no

MM your presentation you showed. During the session, an exchange between yourself and Mr Toshack. How did it start?
SH each of these points and the one referring to transgender women. He had some views and a strong opinion.

MM what did you say?
SH I said need to treat with respect.

MM what did he say?
SH he didn’t agree.
MM was he ??? (Sound issues )
SH not to begin with. TW not women. I said we are governed by prison service.
MM did DT mention his beliefs or religion at this point?
SH can’t remember

MM how are you feeling at this stage of the conversation?
SH new officers coming into the business; I referenced again the terms , was he happy to comply. I felt we had explored it as much as we could at that point

MM what next?
SH I talked to HR business partners that this had happened. I asked my training manager.
MM they were somewhere else int he building? What made you decide to speak to them?
SH I had concerns about people in our care, concerns may not be met

MM you had your conversation
SH I made them aware. Can be one on one. I had concerns about treatment, a large cohort in that class.

MM you came out meeting in canteen Susan Pollock meeting.
SH other comments . He’d refused. Various comments.
MM did you know Stephan Weir said no such comments made against you?
J give me a description of the room

SH size of this?
MM packed in like sardines then would be difficult not the hear comments
SH comments made me uncomfortable

SH not appropriate to *inaudible*
MM what did you do after?
SH back to main

MM p586. How come to draft this ?
SH wasn’t done on that day but I did it based on a verbal statement.
J - you wrote it ?
SH I wrote it a Coupel is weeks later and forgot to send till a couple of weeks later

couple of

DH. You were on the safeguarding team. Tell me in terms of your level of seniority, I was interested in comparison to Mr Hutton?
SH similar
DH some time known and worked with?
SH yea

DH encountered a lot?
SH only really in training
DH this session on 7th January 2025. What was your time slot for the class? 6 slides.
SH an hour

DH no disagreement as to the passage of time. A difference in views. DT thought he didn’t take more than 5 minutes. You ask DT To leave the room. If he’d declined you might have put it in stronger terms as a manager?
SH yes

DH DT does comply
SH yes
DT you suggest he goes to canteen and awaits further instruction?
SH yes
*sound cuts out for a while*

DH you return 15 mins so you were speaking with Mr Hutton for about 10 mins?
SH yes
DH you did offer your views on the impact of what DT said on welfare. Did you have any expectation of what would happen?
SH no

DH after class had finished you typed up events. Part of the process is getting evidence. Things Mr Toshack said. Do you agree he said ‘males are males and females are females’?
SH yes

DH He said he wouldn’t use preferred pronouns?
SH yes
DH he said it would amount to a lie?
SH yes

DH why he would not use PP is he considers males males and females females. Is that not obvious?
SH no

DH you’re not making the connection?
SH no , pronouns are the requirement.
DH your response was this was policy and he’d be required to do so.
SH yes

DH you were giving chapter and verse on policies.
SH in relation to equality act and GRA.
DH you would have named the legislation
SH yes

DH did you understand it to be the law?
SH within the prison service
DH an answer now that not the law but the policy
SH yes (NB sound continues poor)

DH DT did NOT say he would not refer to trans prisoner’s name. But would not use the pronouns.
SH I can’t (inaudible)

DH he did not say he wouldn’t search a trans prisoner.
SH I don’t recall
DH (inaudible) this is your evidence on this. It’s surprising and you’ve misconstrued what DT said

DH what was DT conveying to you?
SH he would not be open to that. At the time a recollection.
DH essentially the same ground was covered in the corridor. Do you remember repeating that position?
SH ??

DH presumably in your mind what DT has relayed to you was not acceptable? Another exchange took place. For the judge to decide, but we’ve seen DT give evidence and he’s quite eloquent

SH he seemed hostile
DH a suggestion he raised his voice?
SH I felt the situation was escalating

DH .. he was gesturing, some people do.. when they talk..
SH it came across *inaudible*

DH you mention slight hostility - if I suggested not feeling intimidated by his behaviour? Whatever the view, it didn’t stop DT complying with instructions. You were getting frustrated..?
SH it’s a good area to have to voice concerns.

DH was it you getting frustrated or heated?
SH I couldn’t say. What I felt from DT
DH was it not you who was talking faster and getting more animated?
You were speaking over DT
SH I was trying to explain

DH Spoken with others after?
SH yes
DH p 585. You’re sending this statement to mr Sinclair as opposed to Mr Hutton.
SH I was asked to send it

DH p 586. 13 Feb you sent. Heading then first line ‘star star star’ looks like the way you’ve prepared this statement you’ve not been able to put the date?
SH I had another part of this.
DH interpretation might be by this date you couldn’t remember?

DH you were struggling to remember the date of the presentation could you not find that date easily? Perhaps the statement not quite correct?
SH disagrees

DH there’s a suggestion DT refused to use a trans prisoner’s first name. What you state ‘Mr Toshack said not use ‘ there’s nothing here that states he wouldn’t use their first name.

DH is it the case the reason why pronouns focus not name is because he didn’t refer to name? Are you any less confident?
SH in my memory from somewhere

DH I suggest ..Mr Toshack didn’t say that. No reference to trans prisoners toilets in your statement either is there?
SH no

SH my concern was refusal to comply with procedures.
DH you say more serious not to use pronouns than access to toilet?
SH no.

DH on the question of aggression. ‘DT was presenting aggressively towards me re this topic’
SH on the areas discussed
DH you don’t expand on what the aggressive presentation was?

SH *inaudible*
DH you’ve said this was an unusual event. A new employee this would be unusual
SH I’d already verbally had a conversation with others.

DH prisoner’s preferred name?
SH yes
DH the reason why we get more detail that is you’ve been adding to a narrative about this over time.
SH no

DH why should we accept more evidence today?
SH my statement wasn’t complete
DH DH has lost his job
SH yes

DH p 579 DH appeal against his dismissal. Have you seen it?
SH no
DH You were involved in dismissal of DT.

DH you’ve mentioned trans training have you had any training in Equality Act?
SH yes in 2018
DH refreshers?
SH yes

DH you’re not a lawyer but you’ve some cognisance of it. Are you aware of religion or belief?
SH yes
DH are you aware of gender critical? A protected characteristic under the EA?
SH no.

DH a structure of enforcement and performance measures.
SH yes
DH some of that involves penalty points eg completion of documentation
SH yes

J Can we go back to the presentation? Prisoner record same?
SH different
*sound break*

J have you had challenges in the past from participants?
SH yes. Debate.
J Have you asked someone if they’d step outside before?
SH no

J five minute adjournment till 1531.

Returns. J decides to end session. Reconvene on Monday at 1000.

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