Kind of comments which skew the discussion rather than lead to an informed discussion. Some are more deshbhakt than others, it seems.
Most hilarious bit is that those who crow about indigenous products have never used it! And when actual users of many of these products point out issues, you get fancy PPT type arguments which have no relation to ground realities. Still bigger issue is that +
+ most of this crowd will give you one or two examples of Army's disinterest in domestic products like Arjun to silence criticism of EVERY other system. No criticism from Services is discussed on its merit. When the reality is that if you see IA orders for last 10 years, DRDO +
+ products will feature prominently in them. And questions are raised only when IA asks for an import; there are no questions asked for delay in R&D and induction. I remember the typical heartburn when interim ATGM imports were suggested for Rudra and LCH because as per this +
+ deshbhakt lobby, HELINA was just around the corner. No one's now asking where's HELINA when Rudra helicopters are flying in Ladakh w/o an ATGM against Chinese army composed mainly of mechanised forces!
And one more funny bit:
- Army rejects good product: Army loves import
- Army rejects bad products: Army did not work closely with DRDO, it does not believe in intervative development, and hence, army loves import 🤣😂🤣
- Army rejects good product: Army loves import
- Army rejects bad products: Army did not work closely with DRDO, it does not believe in intervative development, and hence, army loves import 🤣😂🤣
I'd long time back identified the reason for this skewed debate:
- Most people understand technology not army issues like logistics, operational issues, maintenance etc.
- Focus is only on the R&D product, on tech side. What most don't understand is that from Services +
- Most people understand technology not army issues like logistics, operational issues, maintenance etc.
- Focus is only on the R&D product, on tech side. What most don't understand is that from Services +
+ perspective, good product means induction, SUSTAINED performance as per laid down requirement, spares, maintenance, timely support by manufacturer, reasonable uptime etc.
- People even crib about the long product testing and blame Services for putting domestic products
+
- People even crib about the long product testing and blame Services for putting domestic products
+
+
through difficult test routine as compared to imports.
- What everyone conveniently forgets that imports underwent development and induction related testing in their home country already!
- If you go by expectations of this self proclaimed desh bhakt crowd, the moment DRDO +
through difficult test routine as compared to imports.
- What everyone conveniently forgets that imports underwent development and induction related testing in their home country already!
- If you go by expectations of this self proclaimed desh bhakt crowd, the moment DRDO +
+ comes out with a product brochure, it's good to be inducted.
- And the only reason it's not being inducted because Services are anti- domestic products.
- The fact that we never hear of Service's side of story, while DRDO and DPSU have enough leaks about their products, means +
- And the only reason it's not being inducted because Services are anti- domestic products.
- The fact that we never hear of Service's side of story, while DRDO and DPSU have enough leaks about their products, means +
+ we don't have complete picture. It's distorted in favor of DRDO and DPSU.
- Just take the example of NUH, Navy and HAL.
- Thank goodness we've an ex-Navy Chief and other illustrious officers who gave Navy's side of the NUH story and came to know how basically HAL never +
- Just take the example of NUH, Navy and HAL.
- Thank goodness we've an ex-Navy Chief and other illustrious officers who gave Navy's side of the NUH story and came to know how basically HAL never +
+ bothered about NUH.
- Only when it occured to it that with declining future IAF/IA orders for ALH, NUH can be a good cash cow, it's trying to scuttle a procurement process for purely selfish needs.
- What we need is an informed assessment of both the parties involved, not this+
- Only when it occured to it that with declining future IAF/IA orders for ALH, NUH can be a good cash cow, it's trying to scuttle a procurement process for purely selfish needs.
- What we need is an informed assessment of both the parties involved, not this+
+ idiotic holier than thou approach and labeling people and organisations because they don't act as per your stupid expectations.
Now, please tell me, is IAF patriotic enough? Or, should we have merit-demerit system?
- IAF not ordered 200+ Tejas Mk X (Demerit - 100)
- IAF back domestic over NASSAM-II (Merit - 20)
Score: -80, hence, still no patriotic enough.
- IAF not ordered 200+ Tejas Mk X (Demerit - 100)
- IAF back domestic over NASSAM-II (Merit - 20)
Score: -80, hence, still no patriotic enough.
Current DRDO+Services scenario:
Earlier, heartburn between the two used to be because of R&D establishment claiming that they'll develop a product in X years, import used to get scuttled, and product at times took 2X or 3X of that time. Plus, successful product from Services +
Earlier, heartburn between the two used to be because of R&D establishment claiming that they'll develop a product in X years, import used to get scuttled, and product at times took 2X or 3X of that time. Plus, successful product from Services +
+ POV meant consistent performance, no lapse in production quality, proper QC, spares & support etc.
- Earlier, R&D estb used to make tall claims for multiple reasons, Services weren't too willing to work with them, GSQR at times were 'BBC' - Best of Brochures, funding wasn't +
- Earlier, R&D estb used to make tall claims for multiple reasons, Services weren't too willing to work with them, GSQR at times were 'BBC' - Best of Brochures, funding wasn't +
+ smooth etc. Basically, a massive logjam with fingers being pointed everywhere.
- And most importantly, please don't forget that in case of most R&D products, we were developing both the industrial base and the product.
- There was hardly any tech/industrial base outside of +
- And most importantly, please don't forget that in case of most R&D products, we were developing both the industrial base and the product.
- There was hardly any tech/industrial base outside of +
+ R&D establishment which could be leveraged.
- But over the years, we've crossed the hump in many tech areas. Surface to Air missiles, ATGM (almost there, seeker is the killer part), radars (fabulous job), helicopters, electronics, optics, AAM (holy grail of defense R&D) etc.
+
- But over the years, we've crossed the hump in many tech areas. Surface to Air missiles, ATGM (almost there, seeker is the killer part), radars (fabulous job), helicopters, electronics, optics, AAM (holy grail of defense R&D) etc.
+
+
- In cases where acquisition is an urgency (remember, many of our products are one/two generations behind), we now follow a mix of import + domestic solution.
- Case: Arudhra Radars - req split between import (1st pic-Israeli EL/M-2084) and domestic (2nd pic-DRDO Arudhra)
- In cases where acquisition is an urgency (remember, many of our products are one/two generations behind), we now follow a mix of import + domestic solution.
- Case: Arudhra Radars - req split between import (1st pic-Israeli EL/M-2084) and domestic (2nd pic-DRDO Arudhra)
+ So, situation is much improved today, though, there is always scope for more improvement.
- Only worrying thing is that while some centers of excellence have emerged in DRDO, other labs haven't been too successful. Smalls arms is a case in point.
- Only worrying thing is that while some centers of excellence have emerged in DRDO, other labs haven't been too successful. Smalls arms is a case in point.
What are Services supposed to do in such cases? Why is the onus of engaging with domestic players only with Services? How about getting DPSUs to pull-up their pants and deliver products on time? Or let pvt sector do the work. It takes two to tango.
- Everytime there is talk of emergency purchase, APFSDS rounds are always there.
- Because of repeated disasters by OFB 10 years ago, lakhs of rounds were rejected, and we're yet to make-up the shortfall.
- Here's a detailed thread on it
- Because of repeated disasters by OFB 10 years ago, lakhs of rounds were rejected, and we're yet to make-up the shortfall.
- Here's a detailed thread on it
- A 2013 detailed analysis on the situation in India w/r/t this ammunition.
- OFB screwed-up mfg, imports got banned, DRDO product was then not up to mark, 92% production shortfall etc.
- Read and see the kind of constraints Services have to work with.
vatsrohit.blogspot.com/2013/11/indian…
- OFB screwed-up mfg, imports got banned, DRDO product was then not up to mark, 92% production shortfall etc.
- Read and see the kind of constraints Services have to work with.
vatsrohit.blogspot.com/2013/11/indian…
