Thread by @hexcrawl

Live-tweeting reactions to #IcewindDale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, but trying something different: I'll have one thread of stuff I didn't like (this one) and another thread of stuff I did (link below).

As with previous live-tweeting threads and Remixes, my emphasis here will not be "this bad, me hate"; expect critical thinking and in-depth discussions of scenario structures and best DM practices.

Good stuff over here:

https://twitter.com/hexcrawl/status/1306276972348108801

300 page adventures need indexes.

And if you don't have an index, you'd better make really, really, really, really sure the Table of Contents doesn't have errors in it.

Somebody said, "Wouldn't it be cool if we had a system where the PCs could gain Reputation in Ten-Towns?"

And then like two paragraphs later they were like, "Eh. Fuck it."

"...they no long (sic) gain levels by completing the quests in this chapter. Even so, completing more ... quests can improve their [reputation]."

2 paragraphs later: Reputation is only tracked by what level you've achieved!

How few fucks were given?

Page 18: "When the characters reach 4th level, they ... also learn about new adventure opportunities outside Ten-Towns, as described in chapter 2."

Chapter 2: "By the time the characters reach 3rd level..."

Also: That is not how tall tales work.

1. Tall tales are not completely reliable sources of information with attached action items. They're, like, the opposite of that.

2. Tall tales are not zealously guarded secrets which communities refuse to share with outsiders. They're usually icebreakers.

(Icebreakers! Get it?!)

Exactly.

More discussion of this later, but Rime is structured around two rumor tables: Stage 1 rumors are immediately available; Stage 2 rumors unlock at 3rd (4th?) level.

https://twitter.com/perdricof/status/1306300908687556608

What would be cool is a Tall Tales table that could be used in concert with Stage 1 rumors to lay pipe for the Stage 2 rumors (and beyond).

So you get some tall tales about the ancient frost giants and then LATER you get an actionable lead to their abandoned thrones.

This is a cool idea. I wonder if you could build out a Reputation system that would modify the Friendliness rating of the community?

Accumulate Heroic Reputation to boost the effective Friendliness of a town. Villanous Reputation does the opposite.

https://twitter.com/CritFailsafe/status/1306300943810453504

Re: Starting Quests.

Conceptually, yes.

In practice, unfortunately, they don't work very well: The quests are just... boring. They're boring in concept and they're boring to do.

https://twitter.com/hexcrawl/status/1306343105692540928

And this is one of the worst scenario hooks I've ever read.

It's comically bad.

"Hello. Yes. I would like to pay you 100 gp to kill this random person because he is a serial killer.... I mean, maybe? Who knows, really. I have no actual evidence that he's the killer. Hell, I don't even know if he was actually in the same town where the killings happened...

...but maybe, just maybe, the killer is working for the Frostmaiden. Or maybe not. But if the killer IS working for the Frostmaiden, then MAYBE he would be immune to the cold. And this guy doesn't wear a coat. So... yeah. Definitely the killer."

That's pretty ridiculous. But then it gets dumber.

Quest-Giver: "I followed Torg's caravan for 10 days."

PCs: "So where is it now?"

QG: "I have no idea."

QG followed them for 10 days, became convinced they were the killer, and then... left and went to a completely different town? So that they could sit in a tavern and stare at strangers until randomly deciding which one they would ask to go kill somebody on their laughable say-so?

The crazy thing is that the QG is completely right: The Frostmaiden is sending Sephek around to kill people who bribe officials to take their name off the sacrifice lottery.

Okay... But... Only three of the Ten-Towns even do the human sacrifice thing. If the Frostmaiden is killing people for not being available as sacrifices, why isn't Sephek targeting the other seven towns?

Finally, and I recognize this is fairly petty compared to the other big problems here:

This is not how fencing stolen goods works.

Stealing shit does not automatically double its market price. Generally speaking, the exact opposite is true.

(Upon further consideration: It would actually make more sense for Sephek to be targeting the seven towns that aren't offering human sacrifices.

(a) Auril probably doesn't actually want to micro-manage the sacrifice program...

(b) It gives you more murders, which helps make the serial killer a more palpable threat.

(c) If the killer is claiming a victim each month, then the QG can be concerned that, with another new moon passing, there'll be a new cycle of killings beginning.)

LOL.

This is truth, but I'm also OK with it: There's a full range here from "dark secret that may kill you" to "silly bit of trivia."

This lets the DM dial in the tone they want (easy enough to yank a couple of the secret cards).

https://twitter.com/evilgenius815/status/1306360431699791872

But having that breadth in a single group can also be good: The disparity of experience creates texture.

It can also create surprise: If I get "I know Chewbacca" I may assume other secrets are similar. Which leaves my jaw on the table when a xenomorph bursts out of your chest.

Re: Rumors.

There are two problems with doing rumors like this.

First, the initiation of action is inverted. The GM shouldn't be saying, "Lo! Thou hast done a thing!" Instead, establish that "looking for rumors" is a thing they can do as a default action.

Second, the point of having a rumor table is generally to give the group LOTS of rumors (i.e., scenario hooks) that they can then choose between and prioritize.

thealexandrian.net/wordpress/3753…

Doling them out one at a time is to shoot yourself in the foot. (And is likely to result in the need for a "Lo! Thou hast.." moment.)

Now, when they come back for the Stage 2 rumors (aka "tall tales"), they get the "give 'em lots of rumors" thing right.

But they're still "Lo! Thou hast!"-ing it all over the place.

This stuff should be coming organically out of the game world, not being decreed from on high.

This is a legacy issue, but let's talk about why this is bad design.

You have a set of mechanics that emphasize the Frostmaiden's harsh winter in #IcewindDale... but the mechanics are completely negated by spending 10gp on cold weather clothing.

The mechanic can't be used to build interesting challenges or even establish tone. It's just a tiny tax and an arbitrary bit of irrelevant bookkeeping that is then completely ignored.

This is a wide-ranging problem in 5th Edition's design, where they've kept a lot of the mechanics that were used to create unique and varied challenges in previous editions... but then presented completely trivial mechanical solutions that automatically solve the problem for you.

Previous editions often had similar mechanics that REMOVED GAMEPLAY from the game, but they were introduced at HIGHER LEVELS.

So you experienced the game play for awhile, and then the game mechanically shuffled the old challenges off the table and introduced new ones.

This is a really big and pretty fundamental problem with 5th Edition's core design. And you can see here in #IcewindDale how it cripples interesting scenario design.

I talk about this in more detail in The Subtle Shifts of Play.

thealexandrian.net/wordpress/7632…

Re: Reputation.

Yes.

This really is live-tweeting, so I haven't read the whole book. But it seems like the over-arching thrust is that the PCs will rise up, overthrow the Frostmaiden, and lead #IcewindDale out of her horrible winter.

https://twitter.com/slightmisplay/status/1306416284553359361

Done correctly, a solid Reputation system could really heighten that story and make it viscerally meaningful: The players would really be able to feel themselves becoming heroes of the Dale, and those mechanics could feed back into the narrative.

On the flip-side, let's say that we DIDN'T want to do any of that.

What would better than this?

No mechanic at all.

The only thing Reputation is doing in #IcewindDale, AFAICT, is unlocking the Stage 2 rumors. So... just do that. No need for an extra conceptual hoop.