To determine if a hot dog is a sandwich, you must first define your boundary conditions.
There are five taxonomies of hand foods.
1) The Pornography Razor
2) The Earl of Sandwich Dichotomy
3) Backformation
4) Structural A (Cube Rule)
5) Structural B (Overthinking)
/
There are five taxonomies of hand foods.
1) The Pornography Razor
2) The Earl of Sandwich Dichotomy
3) Backformation
4) Structural A (Cube Rule)
5) Structural B (Overthinking)
/
The first is simple - as the Supreme Court determined in relation to pornography.
"I know it when I see it."
This is by definition a subjective rule, but the one most people use. It is the heart of most rejection of the Hot Dog as a Sandwich.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it…
"I know it when I see it."
This is by definition a subjective rule, but the one most people use. It is the heart of most rejection of the Hot Dog as a Sandwich.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it…
The cons of this are manifold - it is subjective to every person, enhances in-group bias, and encourages constant argument on Twitter.
The pros are few, but strong - it takes no additional thought, and is the closest to how English as a language actually works.
The pros are few, but strong - it takes no additional thought, and is the closest to how English as a language actually works.
If this is to your liking, well done.
You can get out of this conversation now, and need not think of this again. You may continue, secure in the rightness of your beliefs, sure that you and only you are the supreme arbiter of truth.
You can get out of this conversation now, and need not think of this again. You may continue, secure in the rightness of your beliefs, sure that you and only you are the supreme arbiter of truth.
For those who wish to have some sense in the world, however, we will struggle valiantly on to the Earl of Sandwich Dichotomy.
This is a functional, utilitarian, originalist dichotomy. I am fond of it.
This is a functional, utilitarian, originalist dichotomy. I am fond of it.
According to legend, the Earl of Sandwich was a card player. He asked his servant for a lunch that could be eaten while playing cards, something then that would have the following characteristics:
- Of middling size
- Eaten one-handed
- With minimal mess
- Taking up little space
- Of middling size
- Eaten one-handed
- With minimal mess
- Taking up little space
An argument can be further made that a lunch is not a dessert; that it would be made of savory ingredients.
This would give you a simple test to apply. If it meets those qualifications, it is a sandwich.
Simple, however, is not the same as good.
This would give you a simple test to apply. If it meets those qualifications, it is a sandwich.
Simple, however, is not the same as good.
By this logic a meatball sub is not a sandwich, while a hotdog is.
Things which are sandwiches:
- Pizza
- Wraps
- Burritos
- Hand pies
- Dumplings
- Some tacos
- Corn Dogs
- Shish Kebabs
Things which are sandwiches:
- Pizza
- Wraps
- Burritos
- Hand pies
- Dumplings
- Some tacos
- Corn Dogs
- Shish Kebabs
Mencken, by way of @Sigseg_V, details the pros and cons of this system quite well.
I think we all know that Teriaki on a stick is not a sandwich; this rule says that it is.
You must sacrifice your innate sense of "Sandwich" to use this rule.
I think we all know that Teriaki on a stick is not a sandwich; this rule says that it is.
You must sacrifice your innate sense of "Sandwich" to use this rule.
https://twitter.com/Sigseg_V/status/1338880349867130880
We move on, then, to Backformation. Also utilitarian, but progressive, rejecting the aristocratic roots of the word - no, the sandwich is a people's food!
Time marches forward! Words change! Workers of the world, unite!
Time marches forward! Words change! Workers of the world, unite!
We take, from the noun "Sandwich," a verb - to sandwich.
Quoting Merriam Webster:
"to make into or as if into a sandwich, especially : to insert or enclose between usually two things of another quality or character"
Quoting Merriam Webster:
"to make into or as if into a sandwich, especially : to insert or enclose between usually two things of another quality or character"
Sandwiches, then, are foods which are sandwiched. Ingredients, inserted or enclosed between usually two OTHER ingredients, similar to each other but not that which is enclosed.
By this rule, the hotdog has the same sandwich valence as any sub or roll based sandwich which retains a hinge, or any wrap, taco, pocket, dumpling, or baked potato, or a slice of pizza which has been folded in half.
If one of them is a Sandwich, all of them are.
If one of them is a Sandwich, all of them are.
It also explicitly includes things like ice cream between two waffles, or a piece of bread held between two pieces of cheese,
Or a bagel, cut in half the wrong way, with peanut butter and jelly smeared on the facing surfaces.
As below.
Or a bagel, cut in half the wrong way, with peanut butter and jelly smeared on the facing surfaces.
As below.
Gaze upon it. Can you accept this, in your heart? Can you call this a sandwich?
Thus is the price of the backformation.
There is a wisdom that is woe; but there is a woe that is madness
Thus is the price of the backformation.
There is a wisdom that is woe; but there is a woe that is madness
English is full of backformations, though. Often we define away the original in the act of causing a backformation, a phenomenon I have explored in prior work:
Stonehenge is not a Henge. The Labyrinth is not a Labyrinth. Asters aren't Asters.
Stonehenge is not a Henge. The Labyrinth is not a Labyrinth. Asters aren't Asters.
https://twitter.com/NomeDaBarbarian/status/1291363762776076290
Structural A is popular online: the Cube Rule.
It is absurd, but it intends to be. It defines foods which have a starch encasement by how many sides of a cube are covered.
cuberule.com
It is absurd, but it intends to be. It defines foods which have a starch encasement by how many sides of a cube are covered.
cuberule.com
Foods with structural starch are divided into:
1) Toast (a platform of starch)
This includes pizza, sushi, and a slice of pumpkin pie.
2) Sandwich (a vertical stack, starch-ingredient-starch).
This includes classic sandwiches, quesadillas, and two-layer cakes with filling.
1) Toast (a platform of starch)
This includes pizza, sushi, and a slice of pumpkin pie.
2) Sandwich (a vertical stack, starch-ingredient-starch).
This includes classic sandwiches, quesadillas, and two-layer cakes with filling.
3) Tacos (three contiguous sides of starch)
This includes hot dogs, a slice of pie with crust on top, and the sub sandwich.
4) Sushi (a tube of starch with open ends.
This excludes Nigiri (as that's a form of toast), but includes wraps, pigs in blankets, and enchiladas.
This includes hot dogs, a slice of pie with crust on top, and the sub sandwich.
4) Sushi (a tube of starch with open ends.
This excludes Nigiri (as that's a form of toast), but includes wraps, pigs in blankets, and enchiladas.
5) Quiche (all but the top are starch)
This includes entire pumpkin or cheesecake style pies, chicago style deep dish pizza, soup served in a bread bowl, and pita pockets.
6) Calzones (entirely encased)
Dumplings, pop-tarts, ravioli, a whole crusted pie, corn dogs, etc.
This includes entire pumpkin or cheesecake style pies, chicago style deep dish pizza, soup served in a bread bowl, and pita pockets.
6) Calzones (entirely encased)
Dumplings, pop-tarts, ravioli, a whole crusted pie, corn dogs, etc.
7) Cake (3 or more layers of stacked starch)
Lasagna, big macs, club sandwiches, a stack of pancakes (one solitary pancake is of course toast).
Anything which does not posses structural starch (mashed potatoes, soup in a bowl, a steak) is a salad.
Lasagna, big macs, club sandwiches, a stack of pancakes (one solitary pancake is of course toast).
Anything which does not posses structural starch (mashed potatoes, soup in a bowl, a steak) is a salad.
And a vanilla soy late is a three bean wet salad.
At present, Poutine and Spaghetti are given as "salad," despite their starch. I would argue, if you use this rule, that it's incomplete - I humbly offer and eighth category to @indirect, its custodian:
Nachos
Anything where the structural starch is throughout, but disparate.
Nachos
Anything where the structural starch is throughout, but disparate.
Casseroles, Scalloped Potatoes, Poutine, Chili Cheese Fries, any Spaghetti, rice, couscous, or risotto dishes: all Nachos.
Using the cube rule is the equivalent of deciding in the Gif/Jif debate that you should instead use the Old English "Yif."
It is absurd, relies on arcane knowledge, and reinforces in-group humor. It is a good laugh. It gives the argument exactly as much gravitas as it deserves.
It is absurd, relies on arcane knowledge, and reinforces in-group humor. It is a good laugh. It gives the argument exactly as much gravitas as it deserves.
This is exactly the response I'm looking for.
https://twitter.com/nerdwen/status/1338888239986380801
I'm sorry, the bean taxonomy thread is happening the next room over, you're in the wrong lecture hall.
https://twitter.com/SuperTalismanCD/status/1338888585177657345
*the sound of debating the chicken nugget's place in the bean taxonomy wafts down the hall, as Lita opens the door to this room and goes into the other one*
By the Cube Rule, anything that is a single piece of starch (a muffin, a loaf of bread, a potato) is simply toast-in-waiting.
https://twitter.com/Sigseg_V/status/1338889149898604545
But enough on the cube rule. We move on now to Structural B, which has been the focus of six years of work on my part.
I wish I was joking about that.
Long night shifts in a kitchen lead to strange thoughts and stranger conversations, as @Spwncar and @CauselessRabel can attest.
I wish I was joking about that.
Long night shifts in a kitchen lead to strange thoughts and stranger conversations, as @Spwncar and @CauselessRabel can attest.
In the Domain of Intentional Food, in the Kingdom of Prepared Recipes, in the Phylum of Lunch/Snacks and the Order of Hand Foods, there are Four Families of combinatory dishes.
A) Sandwich
B) Roll
C) Wrap
D) Dumpling.
Imagine I named them in latin.
A) Sandwich
B) Roll
C) Wrap
D) Dumpling.
Imagine I named them in latin.
Sandwiches have a rigid or semi-rigid external structure of two separate but similar starch pieces, between which various filling is contained.
Rolls have a thick rigid or semi-rigid external structure into which a cut is placed to insert filling or topping
Rolls have a thick rigid or semi-rigid external structure into which a cut is placed to insert filling or topping
Wraps are made from a flexible or semi-flexible external structure, which contains the filling either entirely or almost entirely.
Dumplings are made from a single contiguous external structure, sealed with the filling inside before cooking.
Dumplings are made from a single contiguous external structure, sealed with the filling inside before cooking.
Given this, a Sandwich is a Sandwich. We all know what a sandwich is, and it includes two halves of a bagel with cream cheese between, or cold cuts on two slices of bread, or what have you.
Hot dogs, hoagies/heroes/etc, Lobster Rolls, and the like are all Rolls.
Hot dogs, hoagies/heroes/etc, Lobster Rolls, and the like are all Rolls.
Gyros, Arepas, Burritos, "wrap sandwiches," tacos, and anything in or on Naan falls into the Wrap/Pocket category. Hard shell tacos have simply had this flexible structure fried. Should enough hard-but-thin structured foods develop this may be the foundation for a new taxon.
And finally, hand pies, empanadas, samosas, steamed buns, pierogi, gyoza, corn dogs... and arguably Scotch Egg, Chicken Parm, and other breaded foods fall into the category of 'Dumpling.'
It is a good category.
It is a good category.
This system has the benefit of being rational, flexible to new data, and with clearly defined lines. It supports order, but does not impose order where none should exist.
It is also, of course, drastically overthinking the issue, and a waste of everybody's time.
It is also, of course, drastically overthinking the issue, and a waste of everybody's time.
Importantly, though, these taxonomies are all useful in different places.
Most people, remember, will use the Pornographic Razor. If they ask you for a sandwich, and you give them vanilla pudding between two tortilla chips, you are a madman.
Most people, remember, will use the Pornographic Razor. If they ask you for a sandwich, and you give them vanilla pudding between two tortilla chips, you are a madman.
Putting it more poetically, I quote a mutual here:
"'How do we most efficiently carve reality at its joints' arguments are pointless without a broader understanding of the field of study."
"'How do we most efficiently carve reality at its joints' arguments are pointless without a broader understanding of the field of study."
Preparing ourselves to think about the world in this way, though, is not a waste of time.
I unironically love these conversations, because they're at the heart of most of my favorite academic topics.
I unironically love these conversations, because they're at the heart of most of my favorite academic topics.
https://twitter.com/NomeDaBarbarian/status/1290800562942820357
To answer folks who've brought this up:
In the Structural B taxonomy, open-faced sandwiches (shit on a shingle, etc) are not hand foods, are generally eaten with a fork and knife, and are therefore outside the scope of the work.
In the Structural B taxonomy, open-faced sandwiches (shit on a shingle, etc) are not hand foods, are generally eaten with a fork and knife, and are therefore outside the scope of the work.
Things which are eaten directly on a rigid structure, and are not bent or rolled like a slice of pizza or a pita, are in my estimation similar to the hard/soft taco distinction - of a similar valence to wraps.
That said, I am open to expanding into a Fifth taxa (toasts).
That said, I am open to expanding into a Fifth taxa (toasts).
Though it's not within the scope of the work, this one is easy.
"wet (adjective)
\ ˈwet \
wetter; wettest
Definition of wet (Entry 1 of 3)
1a: consisting of, containing, covered with, or soaked with liquid (such as water)"
Water consists of water. Yes.
"wet (adjective)
\ ˈwet \
wetter; wettest
Definition of wet (Entry 1 of 3)
1a: consisting of, containing, covered with, or soaked with liquid (such as water)"
Water consists of water. Yes.
https://twitter.com/jvnanu/status/1338894560567635970
The Double Down does not replace starch, but rather encases as a part of the starch (the breading) other ingredients.
So yes it's a sandwich, as the outer layers are starch. It's also recursively a sandwich made (as @phyphor points out) of two dumplings.
So yes it's a sandwich, as the outer layers are starch. It's also recursively a sandwich made (as @phyphor points out) of two dumplings.
https://twitter.com/Nelith999/status/1338893386208645124
Inter Sandwich Enim Silent Leges.
The law rarely bares similarity to reality; Cucumbers and Tomatoes are called "vegetables" or "fruits" depending on the whims of trade negotiators. By papal law, Capybara (the largest rodent on earth) are Fish.
The law rarely bares similarity to reality; Cucumbers and Tomatoes are called "vegetables" or "fruits" depending on the whims of trade negotiators. By papal law, Capybara (the largest rodent on earth) are Fish.
https://twitter.com/MrReciprocity/status/1338898966142922757
I am, incidientally, furious that I used "Pornography" rather than "Pornographic" in the first post, and if I had one wish for the ages, it's that the "I know it when I see it" argument gets known as the Pornographic Razor.
https://twitter.com/NomeDaBarbarian/status/1338892658819825664
And finally - while I'm leaning more and more towards including "Toasts" as the fifth taxon, I would point out that, in this taxonomy, Nachos would be a plate consisting effectively of "Toast Sliders."
I expect, as a mediocre white man expressing a strong opinion on the internet, that this has settled all conversation on the matter.
Good day. / End
Good day. / End
Addendum:
Oh, you poor, sweet summer child.
It can be worse.
Oh, you poor, sweet summer child.
It can be worse.
https://twitter.com/BenjaminMorel/status/1338906353792847876
Addendum Secundus:
People are arguing with the logic of entries in the cube rule, showing that they have fundamentally misunderstood the cube rule.
It is absurd. It is intended to be absurd. I do not recommend or endorse it, I merely report on its existence.
People are arguing with the logic of entries in the cube rule, showing that they have fundamentally misunderstood the cube rule.
It is absurd. It is intended to be absurd. I do not recommend or endorse it, I merely report on its existence.
Addendum Tertius:
Further work is being done by luminaries in the field.
Further work is being done by luminaries in the field.
https://twitter.com/SandyPugGames/status/1339083804892336128
Also: Yelling about Taxonomy is... actually pretty common, for me.
From the middle of a long thread about vultures:
From the middle of a long thread about vultures:
https://twitter.com/NomeDaBarbarian/status/1216110437831344129
THE WORK CONTINUES.
@DrSeaMonster suggests that absolute sandwich valence might be determined by sandwich quotient, gained my a meta analysis of the item in question's sandwich valence according to each of the taxonomies.
@DrSeaMonster suggests that absolute sandwich valence might be determined by sandwich quotient, gained my a meta analysis of the item in question's sandwich valence according to each of the taxonomies.
https://twitter.com/DrSeaMonster/status/1339283647174766592?s=20
A ham sandwich, for instance, has an SQ of 1, as it is a sandwich by all five taxonomies.
A Hoagie, however, has an SQ of .4-.6, depending on uncertainty within the Backformation data.
A Hoagie, however, has an SQ of .4-.6, depending on uncertainty within the Backformation data.
AN UPDATE:
Since the name of the families in the Structural B (6) taxonomy give people a bit of a pause, I've decided to instead name them in Dog Latin after my favorite representative of the taxon.
I'll also be officially including the fifth taxon (flatbreads).
Since the name of the families in the Structural B (6) taxonomy give people a bit of a pause, I've decided to instead name them in Dog Latin after my favorite representative of the taxon.
I'll also be officially including the fifth taxon (flatbreads).
Those are therefore:
Sandwich - Pattymeltidae
Roll - Hoagidae
Wrap - Burritidae
Dumpling - Pierogidae
Toast - Pizzidae
Sandwich - Pattymeltidae
Roll - Hoagidae
Wrap - Burritidae
Dumpling - Pierogidae
Toast - Pizzidae
I have also had suggested to me a final test - the Bite test. Essentially, when you put the food in your mouth, do you experience it as Dry Starch-filling-Dry Starch, w/ discrete layers?
So Pizza is only sandwich when curled, Hoagies and Hot dogs are sandwich, flatbreads aren't.
So Pizza is only sandwich when curled, Hoagies and Hot dogs are sandwich, flatbreads aren't.
As this is an experiential test, I'm not sure if I'll include it in the Sandwich Quotient, but I'm open to it.
(I also wish I liked hot dogs more, so that I could name the family Thermocanidae)
Also, to solve for the uncertainty within the Backformation "hinge" question, for future sandwich quotients I'll be counting "Backformation" as two categories, each worth 1/2 of the .2 in the quotient, with "hinged=Sandwich" and "hinged=!Sandwich" each representing .1.
Given that, with the consent of @DrSeaMonster, we can state authoritatively that the Hoagie has a Sandwich Quotient of .5
https://twitter.com/NomeDaBarbarian/status/1339284549222580224
Also, I would like to retroactively say that the reason I named the families with -idae (as animals) instead of -aceae (as plants) is because botanists are a shifty lot and not to be trusted.
https://twitter.com/NomeDaBarbarian/status/1338942512946298880
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