@LordsSTCom report 'Forensic science and the criminal justice system: a blueprint for change' debate starting at 3.35pm #LordsForSci
Lord Patel opening the debate #LordsForSci
scheduled for 3 hours yay #LordsForSci
9 reports on #forensic science in 10 years, adverse reports continue #LordsForSci
quality of forensic provision is inadequate, lack of high level leadership and ovesight from Home Office and Min Justice
result is dysfunctional forensic market where risks of exit of forensic science providers leaving the market is high
No consistency in way 43 police forces commission forensic services
Calls into question equitable access for defendants.
govt response was to address only one part of the forensic science ecosystem. Insufficient and fall way short of the core challenges
Somethings have changed, but not much for the better
Fragility within the forensic market not been addressed. Police forces remain sceptical of the TFF and FCN.
Some positive conversations for funding R&D but little progress. 3 questions for the govt
where does the accountability lie? who is reposnsible for the regulation of the market?
Ends with a quote (Claude Roux) "England and Wales was the Mecca of forensic science, now it is the example not to folllow"
Baroness Warwick begins
fears little will really change
findings shocked her profoundly
Confidence in #forensic science shattered by this report
9 reports all raising similar concerns but v little if anything has been done
lack of any action in 2 years suggests no progress made
no formal recognition that forensic science needs R&D funding via UKRI
hopes todays debate will prompt govt to go further
Baroness Wardnsley (not sure of spelling) forensic service is a shambles
High quality #forensic service crucial to justice
Service has let us all down in recent years and it has lost its high reputation
Leadership needed at arms length of govt, where is it?
Outrageous that some suppliers are unaccredited
toothless regulator cannot do the job
Putting a public service out to market must show a stable service for private providers
unclear where accountability lies in govt
if resources are not put into R&D there will be more miscarriages of justice.
....<the Lords are really unhappy about all this> #LordsForSci
Earl Lyndsey next
he is chair of UKAS
No surprise then that he focusses on accreditation issues that arose in the report
lots of praise for the Forensic Regulator Bill and the work that UKAS and the FSR do together
Lord Meyer next
regretabbly no longer world class
no leadership or funding
inadequate and in a state of crisis
govt has decided not to implement recommendations on leadership and R&D
the market - dysfunctional, wants the FSR to have economic regulatory powers
Police forces doing in -house, 20% of service provision doen by private sector. Unsustainable forensic market. CJS affected greatly by this.
Police forces sole customer. 30-40 % erosion in pricing over 7 years. Level of scientific skill is compromised if the prices are driven so low. How toi rectify this?
Longer term contracts are good for big providers but locks out innovative niche providers.
need for body to oversee the market to address these issues. level playing field required between private and public sector labs. The FSR should be the one to do all this
proper delivery of justice depends on forensic science and trust in it.
meeting now adjourned for 5 mins, phew
One way traffic against the govt at the moment. Only praise is the FSR bill. #LordsForSci
substantial change needed in forensic science
Lord Winston next
regrettable its taken 2 years to debate this report and not much has changed
delay is an underlying problem and reflects very badly on the govt
discusses the Horizon/Post Office case
public think of forensic evidence as certainties
Randox debacle - investigation still going on, because of chronic shortage of toxicological services
DNA - contamination is serious issue- mistakes still possible in untrained hands / inadequate labs forensic science is in dire straits, univeristy courses seen as a cash cow
wow he is not holding back
Lord Griffiths next
reliability and accuracy of #forensic science is what really matters
disconnect between min justice and Home Office. need one umbrella that covers police judiciary and the defence community. Quality of #forensic science not fit for purpose-govt response falls short and I don't know why this is
market forensic services, not straightforward
in house provision increasing over 10 years so that 80% of it is done in -house by police forces
serious market fragility - small number of large firms undercapitalised, no investment in innovation, monopsony drives down prices, commoditised model delivers no value for money. Long term contracts squeeze out small providers
cut in budgets, not enough resources for a private sector market
If I was an investor would I put money in this?
no convincing arguments for resurrecting the Forensic Science Service, but expanding role of FSR was convincing
Extent of in-force provision needs to be reined in, nagging suspicion that inforce provision will not produce any innovation
missed the nameof this guy
<so far all roads appear to lead to the FSR> #LordsForSci
Baroness Jones next
was a member of Metropolitan Police Authority foir many years
spoke out against the privatisation of forensic science
11 years of conservative cuts to the criminal justice system has had this effect
stepping out for a bit will resume later
Lord Thomas next
sad to hear the decline in forensic science, focusing on leadership and R&D, #forensic science essential to justice, no excuse for failure to restore it
criminall justice board published minutes in June 2020
that is not very informative on progress since then. Not the kind of body effective for this issue. Work on forensic science needs to be independent and accountable. No accountability or independence here.
FSR statutory basis - when is the new regulator to be appointed? It is not for the FSR to be the leader, it cannot provide the leadership needed.
funding for research - digital and DNA. Digital remains a major issue as it has for 9 years. Essential to admin of justice. DNA - made a significant contribution to exonerating the innocent and convicting the guilty
but, also problems with low template DNA - much more needs to be done. Research needed but not dependant on police. Forensic Budget in the hands of the police must be looked at again.
Nothing much has changed in 10 years. trusts that the govt will restore the world leading position.
Lord Fox next
Pandemic has left the courts in crisis. Hopes covid not used as excuse. Justice hinges on #forensic evidence. Once confidence goes, the confidence in the entire CJS goes. What about the environment that practitioners work in?
Asks for response in this debate by govt to be made in writing. This govt response does not help forensic providers. Questions the effectiveness of the police response, sceptical of the FCN. How does the govt asses the market?
Lords addressed the strategic lacuna with a single independent body, the govt damned this with feint praise. With whom does the buck stop in a miscarriage of justice?
looked for a 5 year roadmap due to be produced by the FCN - where is it? No justice, no democracy, defendants denied access to expertise via an impoverished legal aid system. Asymmetry in the market. Slams the FCN "for policing, by policing".
wow, powerful forceful speech by Lord Fox, he really hates the philosophy of the FCN. Big problem in the middle of the way this service is delivered.
Lord Rossa next
looking for govt to spell out precisely what they have done in light of the recommendations made in this report
too much of the reponse is about changing the way things are done rather than delivering improvements in the quality and delivery of forensic science in England and Wales.
It's called being accountable.
will be back for govt response later. Looks like a short one so not hopeful of much by way of any detail
Baroness Williams for the govt, she has tough task ahead
Subgroup meets every 6 weeks, govt is committed to keeping the streets safe. Stephen Lawrence case mentioned. Claims turnround times are world leading. Forensic science has faced challenged - restrained resources, exponential rises in digital.
£28 million to Transforming Forensics. FCN bringing stability to the market
Randox case subject to investigation - FSR legislation ver y specific improvement.
govt dont claim FSR powers adresses all issues. Forensic science reform porgramme agreed by the board in July last year.
4 pillars Police capabilities 2021/22 cash to TFF and FCN. Regulation of provision - FSR bill and legal framework for digital for getting data from victim's phones. CJS capabilities, MOJ working to ensure access to experts for dfence.
R&D Home Office FCN working together to identify current and future needs to meet the needs of the sector.
crikey. that's it. Has there been a weaker response , I don't think so. None of this will satisfy Lord Fox or the others who have spoken out.
To sum up the govt response. We gave the police a load of cash. We've given the FSR statutory powers but we're not doing anything else. That's it.
Lord Patel ends with this: this gives the science and technology comitteee the opportunity to revisit this in 18 months
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