Thread by @cybsqd

#deltarunespoilers #DeltaruneChapter2

I saw a REALLY GOOD video analyzing Determination now that it's known to be part of Deltarune, but function differently from in Undertale.



But its conclusion made me realize some stuff the video leaves unsaid.

🧵

Its core argument is, while in Undertale, Determination was a ludonarrative device in which saving/loading is analogized as rewinding time, in Deltarune, Determination is a ludonarrative device in which creators writing stories is analogized as the creation of Dark Fountains. (1/

This is an incredibly sound theory, but I feel like the video leaves some bits of evidence with interesting implications on the table. Specifically, with the way Darkners and the Castle Town function. (2/

If we take each Dark World as a literal fiction, it makes sense that Darkners can't move between Dark Worlds: they're characters from one story, inserted into another. They aren't in the narrative, and may in fact be from someone else's mind, and unknowable to the author. (3/

But this brings up an interesting wrinkle: Ralsei, and the Castle Town. This may seem like a diversion, but I want to talk about what Ralsei is. I don't think he's, in the purest sense, a 'true' Darkner. I think he's representative of a fan creator's influence on a work. (4/

Think about it. He's acutely aware of gameplay systems. Multiple times forces control away from the player and forcing their perspective away from the narrative. When he runs out of HP, he LITERALLY DISAPPEARS from that world until he is revived. (5/

He has a clear vested interest in telling his own narrative, one that weaves its way through several Dark Worlds, several stories. He has you bring characters from other stories into his world, where he is the master of his domain. (6/

People already strongly suspect that he's hiding something significant, and possibly even lying about the prophecy and the purpose of the Dark Fountains. People have even pointed out that both times he pushes the player's gaze away, it's to speak with Kris privately. (7/

We know from the ending of Ch.2 that Kris is the Knight, creating the Dark Fountains. Why would Ralsei want to privately speak with Kris, the instigator of the conflict, away from the player's control, if he knows the two are not one in the same and Kris is being controlled? (8/

Consider Tea Theory (). Kris has a diminished response to Ralsei tea compared to what you would expect. The video suggests Kris may not be a fan of these private conversations... Is Kris being coerced into something? (9/

It is my suggestion that Ralsei is compelling Kris to open the Dark Fountains, to give a narrative context for him to weave his own story through them. And, I feel like I have some good evidence for this, but to get there we need to talk about Spamton NEO. (10/

We already know that Kris was made uneasy by the Spamton NEO fight. People have assumed it's due to the puppet analogue being similar to how the player is controlling Kris by force. But what if that's not the only thing? (11/

Ralsei is incredibly eager to handwave Kris's unease with events when Susie asks about it. Almost like he doesn't want Susie dwelling on why Kris would be upset. Figuring out that Kris is at least in part uneasy because Ralsei is controlling them, like a puppet on strings. (12/

That's...pretty much the idea, but there is one last wrinkle I want to talk about. The Determination video puts forward the idea that Dark Fountains are Toby's way to talk about how he saw the world impacted by Undertale's success. But that gets things out of order. (13/

Toby has previously said he had the idea for Deltarune FIRST, and only circled back to it now, with Undertale under his belt. But there was another project Toby was involved in that, in the same way, took the world by storm and may have distressed its creators: Homestuck. (14/

If Deltarune is an attempt to discuss the impact of escapism on reality, using the Dark Fountains as an analogue for a narrative's ability to cause harm to the real world it inhabits, inspired by the anxieties of a creator having seen their creation set the world ablaze... (15/

Well, I feel like that comparison writes itself, doesn't it. The fact Undertale took off even moreso than Homestuck did, probably only reinforced Toby's feelings on the message. (16/16)

Oh, a postscript... Before working on Homestuck, Toby was on Starmen.net, the core of the English-language MOTHER community. A community that literally since 2015 gets together in the desert to essentially LARP an EarthBound ARG. I don't think this is a coincidence.

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