While most rollup teams are targeting decentralized sequencers, there's a real use case to centralizing sequencing for maximum efficiency. (Nuances aside w/ provers etc.) Sequencers are powerless: they can only reorder transactions or withhold them. Stealing not possible.
But there's no incentive - if the rollup operator misbehaves they are just pushing people to competing solutions. That's why in the 18 months we have had rollups, there's not been a single case of misbehaviour AFAIK - even with billions at stake now. Be wary of new forks, though.
All competitive rollups will have an escape mechanism to the settlement layer, so you can't actually censor users from quitting your product and using a competitor. Just make it harder. So, there's no real incentive for an established rollup operator to misbehave.
The realistic attack vector is if a nation state subpoenas and shuts things down. But we'll see many regulated blockchain products where this is not an issue. In other cases, a federated sequencing model may suffice - i.e. appoint entities from all over the world to sequence.
The latter could also be semi-decentralized - perhaps a governance vote elects 20 sequencer operators or so.

To be clear: sequencers should absolutely be decentralized for credibly neutral rollups - just saying that there's also merits to not doing so in specific cases.

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More from @epolynya

3 Nov
A common fallacy by non-sharded monolithic chain fans is "will get more decentralized & secure over time". But this is nonsense - they will either have to give up "TPS", or decentralized & secure chains will catch up to them. Moore's/Nielsen's Laws apply to the entire world.
Rollups & data shards benefit even more over time. E.g. Rollups will benefit from CPU/GPU & SSD/RAM advances, data shards will benefit from bandwidth improvements, and both will compound on top of each other. Not to mention the dramatic gains with GPU/FPGA provers.
Oh, and then there's the small matter that rollups didn't trade off decentralization & security to begin with. But I don't discuss that because I don't want to deal with the standard cop-out "but people don't care...". So, my approach is simply rollups + data shards = max "TPS".
Read 4 tweets
23 Oct
Rollups are not tied to Ethereum. Rollup teams can and will deploy on robust security and/or DA layers. E.g. If Bitcoin were to add opcodes to verify STARKs, I bet we see StarkNet Bitcoin. Or if someone invents a revolutionary consensus mechanism that obsoletes PoS.
(1/4)
Like DeFi protocols, they may also deploy on more centralized and insecure security layers to preempt forks. I'd bet they would be incentivized to do so. E.g. Instead of $X00M on ephemeral liquidity mining, more pragmatic would be to pay StarkNet to deploy on Avalanche.
(2/4)
Of course, only Ethereum has an ambitious roadmap for rollups with global scale DA, and I'm not aware of any other project even attempting to build a security layer with robust economics and network effects. Could change in 5-10 yrs, of course. Niches can form elsewhere.
(3/4)
Read 4 tweets
22 Oct
These numbers are measured, $0.06 tx fees is pretty much where I'd place a well optimized optimistic rollup. Just surprised they're already there given Arbitrum/Optimism are quite some ways away. Much easier with payment rollups and custom wallets, of course.
Looking at the big picture: $0.06 is with the highly constrained DA on Ethereum currently. Once modularized with data sharding, the floodgates will open. I suspect calldata will become negligible, and L1 verification and L2 fees will be the dominant costs. Previewed w/ validiums.
So, the cheapest rollups in the future would be:

a) With the highest activity, thus L1 verification cost for each transaction is amortized tending towards negligible
b) The most efficient rollups with the lowest L2 fees (sequencer & proving costs)

(1/2)
Read 4 tweets
18 Oct
@guiltygyoza is building a universe on StarkNet. Now, monolithic chain (L1) apologists or rollup deniers may shout - this is a pointless, frivolous waste of time. The point is, if you can simulate reality - the universe - on StarkNet, you can build *everything*. (1/6)
For the longest time, I had thought it would be impossible to build a decentralized reality simulation - ala Existenz/RP1. But zkRs are that magical invention that can realize this. Eventually, you can build entire game engines and reality simulators within zkR clusters. (2/6)
All you need to decentralize anything is to generate succinct ZKPs and compressed outputs, and have them verified on a security layer like Ethereum. The real heavy lifting - simulating the universe - can be done on a zkR. Won't be long before we have Vulkan API on a zkR. (3/6)
Read 7 tweets
12 Oct
dYdX already does complex DeFi derivative trades for $0.10 - effectively zero-gas abstracted from the user - and reducing more as activity ramps up. The first smart contract rollups - Arbitrum One & Optimistic Ethereum - are early MVPs with many missing features & optimizations.
With Nitro & OVM 2.0, both are seeing significant upgrades soon (OVM 2.0 in 2 weeks). As data compression systems come online, we'll gradually see ~10x further reduction in costs. Of course, StarkNet promises even lower costs - see dYdX as evidence - and alpha releases in Nov.
With the execution layer modularized, the final piece of the puzzle of modularizing data availability. Validiums & volitions are already doing this with <$0.01 fees possible today w/ scale. Rollups leveraging Ethereum will do the same when data sharding releases.
Read 6 tweets
4 Oct
@KyleSamani @Evan_ss6 @latetot Mentioned - "this is not just about Ethereum". Rollups maintain full composability across multiple DA sources - incl multiple data shards & even non-Ethereum DA (volitions). Long-term, one zkR can/will outscale Solana by up to ~10x with full composability and better UX, (1/4)
@KyleSamani @Evan_ss6 @latetot And necessarily, zkRs have superior composability and liquidity (de)fragmentation properties, with initiatives like dAMM & Pooling, than between L1s or sharded networks (which Ethereum is no longer - they're only for data to feed rollups). It's better UX across the board. (2/4)
@KyleSamani @Evan_ss6 @latetot The right comparison is StarkNet vs Solana, not Ethereum vs Solana. One StarkNet instance can outscale Solana, and you can have multiple StarkNet "shards" which can be very tightly coupled, sharing liquidity and other interoperability, and with SHARP share provers. (3/4)
Read 4 tweets

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