Thread by @MForstater

This is historic.

The end to #nodebate

@Nancy_M_K @stonewalluk @JayneOzanne Naomi Cunningham @legalfeminist @SexMattersOrg at Middle Temple LGBTQ Forum

@RobinAllenQC chairing opens:

The law must be clear and certain, comprehensive, enforceable and practical

@JayneOzanne about how she travelled the world seeking conversion therapy.

Conversion Therapy;

The silent phase - for me 20 years
- you struggle with a secret. You will be seen as damaged goods.

I had a breakdown.

I reached out to my church & went through therapy and prayer

It didn't work. I was blamed because it didn't work. God was not answering my prayer.

Stage 3: exorcism. I sought this out.

I considered taking my life

When I did come out many friends and family would not talk to me.

The most çommon is in a religious setting.

The most complete form of law is in Victoria Australia - all ages, legislate against spiritual abuse.

The practice must be aimed at an individual with a predetermined outcome. Any space with a predetermined purpose must be banned.

Consent: a loophole. I consented willingly.

We cannot allow a loophole.

@Nancy_M_K "Equality Law : why is it all so hard"

The UK campaign sits in human rights framework. Gathering pace away from viewing LGBTQ+ people not as ill

Recommends Victor Madrigals report. All calls of CT can cause intense humiliation. Creates self disgust. Begins with belief that someone is sick and needs to be treated. Suicidal ideation is higher

The balance of evidence is clear. All forms of CT cause harm.

It is very clear that talking forms of CT cause harm

(NB: this is not what the Coventry Uni research found)

Prohibit CT everywhere.
The rights based case: international govts are very concerned.
Is it happening. Here.
Trans people are twice as likely to be offered CT

NB: this was a self selected survey you can't draw this conclusion

The Coventry University research found the same thing. 🤔

MOU CT: an attempt to change sexual orientation or GI

It should be outcome neutral

There are 13 countries with a ban. Other countries considering bans.
What should it cover? Should cover all settings including religious and domestic setting. Supporting people coming to terms with their SO or GI should not be.

LGBTQ people are beautiful. We don't need to be changed

Naomi Cunningham - Dow we need the proposed law? Evidence of harm, convincing case that legislation can work, clear proposal. Debate

Debate is critical. This idea
To find the CEO of Stonewall on the same panel as me. So thank you Nancy

We don't know what the conversion theory survey responses mean.

Govt did not find evidence of harm. We don't have evidence

The case for legislation - not every harm can be put right with legislation.

The govt therapy proposal muddles being gay and gender dysphoria.

It is a medical condition.

Imagine you are a therapist. You have a gender non conforming child, who is expressing that they want to be the opposite sex. As a therapist you have to act

The proposed law provides a safeguard to allow therapists to act if if a child is questioning. But this child is not questioning, they are sure. The law would make it illegal.

Naomi talks about homophobic bullying and about Denton's report

Question from Kate Harris. How can you base good law on a feeling rather than a fact

Robin there is a debate over how we should amend the EqA protected characteristics.

This law is about oppressive behaviour

Nancy Kelly answers Kate Harris's question.

We don't have to use the language of "gender identity" can say "trans or non binary person"

Jayne Ozanne apologises to any trans gender people present and gets applause

Talks about child committing suicide

A child knows who they are. trans is not a medical issue

Question on consent. If I can consent to CT being gay is a lifestyle choice. How can I consent to greavious psychological harm.

Naomi. How can a child who hasn't yet developed though puberty consent to the grevious physical harm of puberty blockers and sterilisation? This will be be the scandal of our age.

Nancy: we are talking about two different things - the care package of a trans minor and the ban of conversion therapy.

The idea of consent is impossible when people can be cast out from their church and their community.

Jayne - Article 3 - states are under a duty to protect. All govts are obliged to protect.

@BluskyeAllison: how are you going to stop lesbians being harrased to accept transgender males into their dating pool when you are comparing lesbians to racists and anti Semites. It is coercion

We are talking about two seperate things lesbian sexuality and who people date. I don't think it is relevant to how we provide protection to young adults

Jayne Ozanne I don't think I understand the question. What we are here to do is to protect the right of people to chose.