Thread by @Nick_Carmody

I watched 3 hours of the Joe Rogan interview Dr. Robert Malone. Some observations about Malone, Rogan....and the complexities involving Covid/vaccines, “truth”, cancel culture, Big Pharma, the tribalization of science, political disinformation, and the “Trump effect”: 1/

https://twitter.com/Dragonsinger52/status/1478382587773132805

First, it reinforces how catastrophic it was to have someone as pathologically dishonest as Trump as POTUS when Covid surfaced. I analyzed this extensively in the 70+ threads written between Trump’s covid “hoax” rally, and the 1/6 insurrection. 2/

https://twitter.com/Nick_Carmody/status/1346788319812730880

Trump lies like he breathes.

As a result, he not only convinced roughly half the country that they couldn’t believe a word he said…

...but he also convinced the other half of the country that they couldn’t believe anything anyone else said (“fake news”). 3/

The net effect is that regardless of the issue...

....and regardless of whether Trump was lying, or was occasionally making an accurate statement...

....one-half of the country could not, and would not, believe the truth. 4/

If Trump lied, half the country pushed back with facts/truth, which the Right disbelieved/dismissed as “fake news”.

If Trump spoke accurately, Trump’s pathological dishonesty made it virtually impossible for non-MAGA to believe the information. 5/

This is the underlying problem with the deep divisions/mistrust surrounding Covid/masks/vaccines:

The information is so complex, people must rely on medical/scientific expertise to diagnose/treat a problem that everyday experience/common sense isn't capable of understanding. 6/

Granted, the last couple of years have produced millions of “expert” immunologists/virologists who “did my own research”, but prior to 2020, all but a relatively few actual experts had ever heard of “lipid nanoparticles”…. 7/

…..which happens to be what Dr. Robert Malone worked with in the 1980’s when he advanced mRNA vaccine research.

Four months ago,….. 8/

…someone sent me videos of Malone/Peter Navarro on Bannon’s show, & asked, “does this sound like someone who is unhinged?”, w/the implication being that if someone is not ranting/raving like Alex Jones, then substance of their comments *must* be true. 9/

Yes, Malone sounded “cogent & credible” on Rogan’s show, & surely “spoke a lot of truth regarding cut-throat world of big pharma & scientific repression of ideas/cures that don't support the corporate model of profit”, as the opioid crisis evidences. 10/

https://twitter.com/Dragonsinger52/status/1478382123463626842

But similar to former Attorney General Bill Barr, someone can simultaneously speak slowly, softly, and articulately….while also speaking inaccurately/deceptively/maliciously.

After watching Malone’s appearances on Bannon’s show, I looked up a few of his claims/accusations. 11/

One finding pertained to Malone’s claim about vaccine liability: “These claims are false, based on a misunderstanding of the law, as Malone acknowledged after we contacted him.“…..(not sure if Malone has informed Bannon’s audience of this)….. 12/ washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/…

And as for Bannon’s gushing about the “nomenclature” of Malone’s claims about the “escape mutant virus”…..(reiterated on Rogan’s podcast) a July 2021 study found that: 13/

(I'm unaware if the subsequent emergence of Omicron contradicts this study):

medrxiv.org/content/10.110…

But, there are a couple of other things that are important when considering Malone’s credibility & motivations.

First, although it may seem trivial/petty or simply a semantic distinction, it is relevant to consider Malone’s claim of being the “inventor” of the mRNA vaccine. 14/

From a literal standpoint, it appears that Malone made an important contribution that built upon 20+ years of research, and was expanded by 30+ years of subsequent work/research.

Here’s an excerpt from an article that tracks the history of mRNA: 15/
nature.com/articles/d4158…

To this point, @alexandrosM does make an interesting argument using patent law “guard rails”, and the “zero to one” concept of start-up businesses to support Malone’s claim that he did invent the mRNA vaccines. 16/

https://twitter.com/alexandrosM/status/1437626902114562058

But what’s most important isn’t whether Malone actually invented mRNA, but that he claims he did.

Remember, “mRNA vaccines drew on the work of 100's of researchers over more than 30 years”...

...yet Malone claims to be the “inventor mRNA vaccines”…."inventor”….singular. 17/

Why would Malone do that?

Why wouldn’t Malone say he was “one” of the inventors?

Why wouldn’t Malone say that he played a major role in the creation of mRNA vaccines? 18/

If Malone's message about saving/protecting people from vaccine harm is your greatest concern, wouldn’t he want to be as careful and as factually accurate about his role as possible so as not to detract from, or call the factual accuracy of his message into question? 19/

You would think so, but that’s not what Malone does.

Why?

“Malone, who calls himself the “inventor of mRNA vaccines”, thinks his work hasn’t been given enough credit. “I’ve been written out of history,” he told Nature.”…..20/

If this was a criminal investigation with a theory of the case…..

....not being given enough credit, and feeling like he was “written out of history” might qualify as “motive”. 21/

https://twitter.com/Nick_Carmody/status/1478361843705921536

Furthermore, Malone went on “War room: Pandemic” to warn Bannon’s audience. But those aren’t the people Malone would need to warn, b/c they’re already aggressively anti-vax.

If Malone really wanted to warn/save people, he'd need to go on mainstream/liberal media platforms. 22/

And if Malone really wanted to be taken seriously, he wouldn’t pollute his credibility by appearing on shows (Bannon)...

...or write op-eds with people (Navarro) who have peddled election lies and conspiracies. 23/ web.archive.org/web/2021080522…

Navarro is an economist. Last December, I spent eleven hours reading and checking the sources/citations of Navarro’s 36 page, “Immaculate Deception” report on election “fraud”. 24/

I only got 10+ pages in, and had already flagged 40 errors/lies/etc. A first year law student would have been embarrassed to submit something like that….yet this came from a Ph.d? 25/

(continued)

One particular point that “proved” election fraud was a citation to a *complaint* written by Sidney Powell in a lawsuit that had already been dismissed prior to Navarro publishing the report. 26/

The citation wasn’t to well-established caselaw….. to a recent election fraud court opinion/decision…..or even to a complaint in an ongoing case. No, Navarro cited a complaint in a case that was already dismissed…..because the complaint was frivolous. 27/

Even the Washington Examiner was critical of Navarro’s “work”: 28/ washingtonexaminer.com/news/peter-nav…

Navarro is either mindnumbingly incompetent….

....or dangerously malicious.

If you chose “both”, that answer will also receive full credit. 29/

Now, Navarro….the economist, with the research/writings skills of a 200 level, pre-law undergrad student…is dabbling in immunology/virology.

Without exaggeration, if I walked into a bar, I wouldn’t trust him with “mixology”. 30/

If Malone really wanted to save people, he’d be more conscious of the platforms he appears on in order to preserve a non-tribalized appearance and credibility. But too often, Malone doesn’t do that. 31/

Malone goes on shows where he would have little impact, but would receive great attention/adulation.

Malone goes on shows where the audience would “re-write him back into history” because he legitimized their hysteria. 32/

This was especially true of Malone’s, “mass formation psychosis”, and Nazi Germany comments that he made on Joe Rogan’s show: 33/

https://twitter.com/Nick_Carmody/status/1477781237590736897

For more on Malone’s “mass formation psychosis” comment, read this: 34/

https://twitter.com/jayvanbavel/status/1478119705340751876

As for Joe Rogan….at least as of now, I still agree with this assessment: 35/

https://twitter.com/Dragonsinger52/status/1478381460356800516

I recently listened to Sanjay Gupta describe his impression of Rogan after making an appearance on Rogan’s show. 36/
podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/les…

This is also my read. Rogan has 11 million listeners. That’s a huge audience. People under-appreciate the pressure/responsibility felt by well-intentioned people who have the opportunity to positively influence society at a time when the world feels like it’s falling apart. 37/

Anyone who speaks publicly as frequently as Rogan will inevitably say things that offend/piss people off. And since we live in a binary, all-or-nothing society that uses purity tests to determine the in-group/out-group status of others…. 38/

https://twitter.com/Nick_Carmody/status/1479432879004270594

…it’s only a matter of time before a public figure gets demonized for a controversial statement/action….even if well-intentioned. 39/

Eventually, this dynamic wears people down and causes them to “tribe up”….but, more importantly, it also can cause good people to relate to bad people’s persecution complexes, which can result in a de facto alignment/alliance. 40/

I’ve previously analyzed this dynamic in what I call the “proxy war” phenomenon (a link to the original thread, as well as an excerpt from the article:) 41/

https://twitter.com/Nick_Carmody/status/1110154304508166144

Furthermore, when a belief/action becomes a referendum on one’s morality, this can cause people to relate to & ally with other similarly persecuted people…..even if those people were justifiably persecuted. I’ve analyzed this in the context of reluctant Trump voters: 42/

I see this happening with Rogan. The criticism he’s received for trying to be a “guardian of the galaxy”, for trying to navigate through all the highly complex science, and for interviewing people like Malone….is having an impact on him. The attacks have become personal. 43/

Imagine the effect of being told that YOU are killing people. Especially, when you view yourself as a “guardian of the galaxy” with the intention of protecting/saving people. This would affect anyone in his position, and it is. 44/

This is pushing Rogan into the welcoming arms of the anti-vax coalition & the Political Right b/c he not only feels accepted/revered by that tribe, but he sees/feels commonality/relatability with members who have also been “persecuted” & “canceled”. 45/

https://twitter.com/Nick_Carmody/status/1462415083917565959

And since Rogan may feel the “radical left” has unfairly persecuted him by making his desire to learn/share the truth…and to “guard the galaxy”… a referendum on his character…. Similar to the reluctant Trump voters who voted against Hillary....46/

…the unjust persecution that Rogan feels he’s receiving may make him question the justification of the persecution of people who have also been canceled/silenced, and the motivations behind those persecutions/cancelations. 47/ businessinsider.com/joe-rogan-join…

And similar to the reluctant Trump voters who voted against Hillary, it’s human nature to want to prove to yourself and everyone else that you’re not a bad/dumb guy, or that you aren’t killing people with your advice….48/

…..and the easiest way to do that is to seek out bias/morality confirming information from bias/morality confirming sources (Malone), and to associate with people who validate/affirm that you’re a good person (Gettr account). 49/

The Rogan situation is an ongoing lesson in the effect of the demonization of those who question authority, disagree with us, or fail to pass ideological or tribal purity tests. 50/

Rogan could, and should be an ally, but he and his considerable audience are becoming casualties of a combination of the anti-vaccine identity politics coalition…. 51/

https://twitter.com/Nick_Carmody/status/1462415133460762626

….and the effects of both a real and imagined “cancel culture” where similar punishments/consequences may be adjudicated for a pathologically dishonest guy like Trump……..52/

https://twitter.com/Nick_Carmody/status/1387026749188280323

…..as it is for someone who may legitimately question a perceived monolithic approach to preventing (vaccines) or treating (therapeutics) the virus…..and who harbors understandable distrust of the government/Big Pharma. 53/

One of the interesting aspects of all of this is that similar to “anti, anti-Trump”, where the *Trump intellectuals* don’t/can’t defend Trump, so they instead attack and criticize the reasonable reactions (“Trump Derangement Syndrome”) of those who do…..54/

….the anti-vax hysteria (“depopulation”/nanobot conspiracies) has forced people who have historically been critics into “Anti, anti-Big Pharma” camps where they can’t/won’t defend the historical practices, so they attack/criticize the hysteria around Big Pharma’s vaccines. 55/

One of Malone’s points is about the “Noble Lie”, & Fauci’s & others’ initial claims that masks don’t work because they didn’t want the public to panic, and to hoard supplies and leave doctors/nurses dangerously undersupplied (which happened anyway). 56/

https://twitter.com/alexandrosM/status/1428488431898750976

There’s merit to the criticism of propagating the “Noble Lie”, especially when, as pointed out above, Trump’s pathological dishonesty caused the entire country to doubt reality, even if for completely different reasons. 57/

And yet, the Right seems completely oblivious to the hypocrisy of their dismissal of Trump’s comments to Woodward about the lethality of Covid, while downplaying it publicly (leading to 100k’s of unnecessary deaths)….when they say that he was simply trying to avoid a panic. 58/

In other words, Trump was only telling a justified “noble lie”…..

….except that there’s nothing noble about any of Trump’s narcissistic, self-serving lies. 59/

The problem is that it is very difficult for the average American to know the difference between truth and lies, to recognize legitimate science from questionable science, or to be able to reconcile two legitimate studies that reach contradictory conclusions……60/

….especially when everything is viewed through politically tribalized, bias-confirming lenses.

When something is banned, half the population interprets it as proof of the legitimacy of the banned information/person. 61/

This is the insanity of the situation we're in.

But it does raise an important question: 62/

....At what point does conflicting scientific information, or conventional wisdom, or consensus-challenging theories cross over into “medical misinformation”?

Where is the line?

How is that line defined?

Who defines the criteria used to define that line? 63/

This is the toxic by-product of political disinformation permeating into every aspect of life. This is also why it’s insane to think that the country (as we know it) could withstand another four years of Trump’s revenge-driven pathologies in the white house. 64/

Article version of this thread (no paywall): 65/
patreon.com/posts/60953409

A relevant thread from an "integrity worker" on improving social media w/an urban planning-like approach using "integrity design", rather than suppression of content/speech.

Premise: We can't prevent forest fires, but we can mitigate the Santa Ana winds:

https://twitter.com/sayhar/status/1472939930670309390

A relevant clip of a Rogan interview where his previous understanding of Myocarditis in young males/boys is contradicted by research findings: 67/

https://twitter.com/ItsDeanBlundell/status/1481769388319596545

A relevant thread that responds to a @RubinReport video. Rubin was mentioned above in the context of the "proxy war" phenomenon. 68/

https://twitter.com/Nick_Carmody/status/1443570445165338631

A relevant thread analyzing an anti-vax conspiracy theory about depopulating the world: 69/

https://twitter.com/Nick_Carmody/status/1435209912473174025

Relevant thread on the propensity to spread disinformation: 70/

https://twitter.com/Nick_Carmody/status/1470012339998978048

....71/.....“I don’t think Dr. Malone does himself or those of us... trying to raise questions about the vaccines any favors, when he refers to himself as the inventor of the mRNA technology,” argued Berenson. “That is clearly a large exaggeration. news.yahoo.com/fox-news-favor…