Thread by @IAmNickReynolds

Reporting live from the floor of Gressette 209, where a Senate committee is considering two abortion bills. One would effectively treat abortion as a crime in-line with murder.

There's no live stream option available, and it's a tight room. Press is on the floor.

It's a big week in abortion rights here in SC. Tomorrow is a hearing to overturn a pause on its ban on abortions after six weeks.

The state has spent $182K on outside counsel to defend the law, according to invoices we obtained via public records request. postandcourier.com/politics/sc-ha…

Notably, the Senate Medical Affairs Committee -- chaired by Sen. Corbin -- is made up of five men, and one woman: Democrat Margie Bright Matthews.

"I am very disappointed the meeting is not held in a room where the Senate could offer live stream capability," Sen. Kimpson said. "We are in a pandemic, and many South Carolinians do not feel comfortable."

"This is a very important issue for women across this state and going forward, I hope we could avoid scheduling meetings like this." he added.

Staffer for the subcommittee said other committees took precedent, and that they couldn't get a room to stream.

We're on the first bill now, requiring women receiving a "chemical abortion" (i.e. a pill) to know all their options, including the possibility of an "abortion reversal" procedure.

One OBGYN to testify says this is unproven, and would be tantamount to forcing her to lie.

Added majority of women do not regret getting an abortion -- contrary to the opinion of the bill's male sponsor.

"I've never had any outside entity require I say specific things I know to be untrue. That has never been an issue," said Dr. Carol Allen, an OBGYN in SC since 2001.

"I take this very seriously, and patient education is tantamount to understanding what their choices are and what is happening with their bodies," she said.

Another OBGYN testifying against the bill, saying five out of fewer than 1,000 patients who take the drug Misoprostol regret doing so, and that there is no evidence treatment with Progesterone will actually "reverse" a pregnancy.

Also added that not taking Misoprostol -- one of two abortion pills involved in a chemical abortion -- could actually cause hemorrhaging in patients.

"This bill compromises our ethical obligation to counsel our patients," she said.

Said that trials testing the abortion reversal under Progesterone -- which is not FDA approved -- had to be suspended after a quarter of the subjects had to be admitted to the hospital.

Bryan Casey -- who appears to be a family medicine specialist out of Greenwood -- is endorsing the bill, saying that it is safe and effective.

"This is as pro-choice as it gets," he said.

"Chemical abortions are convenient, cheap and methodical ways to kill an unborn baby," he said.

Said that this could provide a "modicum of hope" for pregnant women who potentially regret their choice.

Under questioning from Kimpson, said Progesterone has been used safely for 50 years for the maintenance of pregnancy.

But for the reversal of pregnancy, it has been used off-label, and without FDA approval, Casey said.

Referred questions from Kimpson about the quality of the studies to Heartbeat International -- a pro-life pregnancy organization.

Kimpson: "This is a very significant issue to women in S.C." And he's not interested in special interest group recs.

Brenda Feece, Executive Director of the pro-life Crossroads Pregnancy Center in Greenwood, also endorsing the bill, saying that many of the women she deals with regret their chemical abortions, and this is a means of informing patients of all their options. Including reversal.

"Soon this will be taught in medical schools as a way to save a baby," she said.

"I'm not here to debate abortion. But I'm here to tell you I'm witness to the facts." Added they are affiliated with Heartbeat International.

SC Citizens for Life also here endorsing the bill. Lobbyists for the Palmetto Family Council also sitting here.

In the front row, several white coats.

Won't tweet every piece of testimony from here on out, but will keep you updated on highlights.

Joshua Malkin, a legal fellow for the ACLU of SC, says he believes that SB 907 is unconstitutional, because the Supreme Court has preciously ruled that states cannot issue mandatory language about abortions deemed to be misleading.

A similar law was struck down in ND in '19 because it violated the First Amendment, forcing doctors to state facts that are not true. Last year in TN, a Trump-appointed judge struck down their version of the bill for similar reasons.

"Senate Bill 907 is a clear violation of doctor's freedom of speech," Malkin said.

There's been a baby crying in the room as the testimony is ongoing. Sen. Cash, after hearing the testimony, questioned why he should buy the results of the studies when there was a baby who had been saved by the reversal procedure sitting in the room. (Don't know if that's true.)

The physician currently testifying against the bill said she can't verify the medical history of that baby, but said that clinical trials -- not a study of a handful of people -- needs to be conducted before mandating anything.

"I don't know any Senator out of 46 that know anything about these drugs referred to in Senate Bill 907," Bright Matthews said.

"One size does not fit all," she added.

One woman (didn't catch her name) said she regretted her abortion after receiving the first pill, and called Planned Parenthood to express it.

Asked if there was anything she could do to reverse the procedure, and said she was told no. Said she found a reversal option online.

Said she went to CVS that night and the pill worked.

The child who was crying was hers. "Give me some hope... This process has brought so much hope into my life."

"I just want there to be an option for women like me who didn't get a choice from Planned Parenthood."

"I hope our medical professionals listened," Sen. Garrett said after her testimony. "We have right to try laws in South Carolina. And we need to make sure that our citizens have as many options as possible."

Dave Wilson, of the Palmetto Family Council, cites an observational study published by NIH that examines the efficacy of progesterone for abortion reversal. (This one: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30831017/)

Said this is an opportunity to give people "a choice."

"If they decide to make a change of course, that's their choice," he said. "So let's give women an informed choice."

Should note: Observational studies are different than clinical trials, which most of the doctors today have used as a sticking point for why they oppose this. There have been no clinical trials backing the drug's off-label use.

The bill has been reported out of the subcommittee to the full committee. All four Republicans -- all males -- voted for it.

We're now moving onto the bill that would criminalize abortions, and allow the state to charge doctors who perform abortions with murder.

The bill on its face clearly violates Roe v. Wade. But as SCOTUS considers a rollback, the bill has language to avoid that: it only takes effect if the law is repealed, or if Congress acts to change the law. scstatehouse.gov/sess124_2021-2…

Sen. Cash said a dozen states already have "trigger laws" around abortion on the books if Roe is overturned. SC is not one of those states.

"If you don't believe an unborn baby is a human being or has constitutional rights to life, you're not going to be in favor of this bill."

Bright Matthews asks Cash what he thinks of mask mandates (which she said is intended to protect everyone) and the Equal Rights Amendment for Women.

"I'm not here to discuss that topic," he said. (South Carolina has not yet ratified the ERA.)

Dr. Natalie Bingham, an OBGYN in Columbia, said that abortion is currently safe because it is legal. Said this bill actively denies women their right to choose and exchanges their fate for one "scripted by the state."

One-in-four women has had an abortion, she said. And half of all pregnancies are unplanned.

Said over 600 SC physicians signed a petition last year in support of legalized abortion in the state, and have passed resolutions opposing laws to criminalize it.

"Carrying a pregnancy is actually much riskier than having an abortion," she said.

Notes the U.S. has one of the highest infant mortality rates among industrialized nations.

"It's like a tar and feather of doctors," Sen. Margie Bright Matthews said of the law. Asked why more doctors weren't here in-person to oppose the bill.

"They're busy taking care of patients," Bingham said.

Bright Matthews said she was concerned with part of Bingham's testimony, which said this would mostly impact low income women of color.

[[[ TW ]]]

Pat Forbis, a family attorney in SC, testifying against the bill's rollback for exemptions on preganancies caused by rape and insist.

Talking about a case she worked where an 11-year-old became pregnant by her uncle, who raped her.

[[[ TW ]]]

DSS intervened, and found out she was pregnant. She was 5' tall, and 90 pounds and would be forced to have a c-section. She was allowed to get an abortion, she had to get surgery. Under the eye of a state trooper, who was there to collect evidence for the crime.

"Please reconsider the exemption for rape and incest," she said.

Callie Roe, of the Personhood Alliance for SC, says abortion "murders human beings."

"Why don't unborn babies deserve equal protection under the law as every other person?"

"Why would we allow murder to continue to be legal in SC?"

"This bill only covers women," Kimpson said. "What would you propose to hold men more accountable?"

"It takes two to produce a child," he adds.

She said in an ideal world, both would make the right choice. And men don't have the right to take an unborn child more than a woman.

Kimpson said there would be criminal investigations involved in miscarriages. And women would bear the brunt of that burden.

Replied women bear the emotional brunt more, but so do men. Can't speak to who's culpable under a hypothetical.

Sorry, got the name wrong. *Kelly Rowe is her name, not Callie Roe.

A fertility clinic Dr. was concerned whether the language in the bill would impact certain fertility treatments.

"I'll certainly listen to your concerns," Cash said. "But we're talking about intentionally killing the unborn child of a woman known or suspected to be pregnant."

The bill doesn't clarify whether the fertilized egg is in the womb or not, Bright Matthews argues.

The ambiguity, she said, comes from the definition of fertilization. "It does not say where fertilization is. Don't you think it'd be important to clarify that?"

Cash said he'll take that "under advisement," but believes they're getting too in the weeds.

A speaker from the pro-life South Carolina Association of Pregnancy Care Centers talking about her own experience with abortion in the 1990s. Regretted it ever since, and wants the state to take a concrete stand against abortion.

"We need a serious bill."

The speaker was Jeannie Scott Smith, founder of the Coastline Women's Center. She is joined by co-founder and husband Carter Smith, who said abortion distracts the core values of men in the role of the family.

One speaker, from Ireland, notes abortion had been illegal in his homeland between 1983 and 2018. During that time, 170,000 women travelled to other countries for the procedure, with no support services when they returned.

Some women who were forced to carry, he said, died.

"What constitutes a risk to the life of the mother? Does it have to be an immediate risk?"

One woman in Ireland was denied care because she wasn't close enough to death. Do we consider diabetes? Feelings of suicide?

"How close to death does a patient have to be before they feel safe about the risk of being prosecuted?" he asks.

Chair Corbin said he will be studying more on some of the concerns that were raised -- including the incident with the 11-year-old -- and had an amendment to clarify who would be culpable in a situation like that. (The mother would not be). He will hold that for full committee.

Garrett said he will reserve additional amendments as well, but said the bill "needs more work."