Thread by @PatrologyVotary

Counter thread:
@potamopotos’ thread has already been sufficiently refuted by what I said in my original response.
The cult of the saints involves honours offered to the saints.
That which @potamopotos limits this to, simply remembering those before us, is not what Augustine did.

https://twitter.com/potamopotos/status/1506686503128338438

The entire premise of my response was precisely the opposite of making Augustine war against himself, which is what you do if you claim that he rejected the cult of the saints.
A cultus *properly so called* (that is, giving divine worship) for saints is rejected, as the quotes…

…I gave demonstrated.
At the same time, Augustine’s writings must be taken as a whole, not quoted selectively to make him say what we want him to.
Augustine rejects the idea of giving divine worship to saints.
If this is what you mean by the cult of the saints, then...

…he rejected it.
But the fact of the matter is that 1) the word “cult” has acquired many meanings not limited to divine worship, 2) Augustine did engage in religious honouring of saints beyond what @potamopotos supports or claims (see my original response thread).

To continue to press the claim that Augustine limited the honouring of saints to “remembrance and imitation” is simply not in accordance with the facts.
To be clear, the idea of “remembrance and imitation” comes from Protestant ideas in rejection of medieval practice, and…

…is opposed to the veneration of relics, invocation of saints, and other practices associated with the cult of the saints, of which there are many that Protestants who are not ignorant of typically find distasteful/superstitious, and therefore reject.

As a Lutheran, this is the position @potamopotos takes, and for the sake of charity I have to assume that he has not gone beyond a quick scan of any of the material I cited of Augustine.
For those who have not seen my original response-thread, here it is:

https://twitter.com/PatrologyVotary/status/1505310189817372676

The claim that since Augustine rejected giving cultus (defined as religious worship) to saints he therefore rejected praying to/invoking the saints and other such things is simply false.
To make him say that is what is senseless.

The bare facts plainly readable in Augustine’s own writings refute this.
Now to address the specific critiques, which are lacking both in quality and quantity, for in attempting to cast doubt upon a single piece of evidence provided (Sermon 316), all the others are ignored.

Augustine, as with many of the fathers, often used rhetorical style and flourishes in his sermons and other works.
This is not a refutation, it is simply an observation.
Augustine ends the sermon very clearly saying that both Paul and Stephen can see him and hear his sermon.

This is then followed by asking them to pray for him (Augustine) because, as he said at the beginning of the sentence, they are with Christ.
They are reigning with Christ.
Therefore, they can pray for Augustine.
In the very next sentence Augustine says that he (Christ)…

…will listen to them.
Listen to them for what?
The context tells us; for their prayers.
Augustine then paints the two martyrs as a lamb and a wolf who are now both lambs, and says “May the lambs acknowledge us…May they commend us to him in their prayers.”

So contextually we know that Augustine is talking about Paul and Stephen in heaven, praying for the church on earth.
The whole text flows naturally, style included.
There is nothing in the style that changes the meaning of the final paragraph.

This is reinforced by the fact that, as I showed in my original thread, letter 316 is not an isolated occurrence.
The weight of witnesses in Augustine’s works disproves contra interpretations.
Once again, I invite everyone to read all the evidence I provided.

Finally, I will address the final point raised regarding Augustine’s work “On the Care of the Dead.”
On my old account I made a thread at one time explaining the theological discourse on the subject of *how* miracles occur.
Specifically, do saints personally engage...

…with the world when miracles are performed by their relics and at their shrines?
Do they themselves appear to people in dreams?
Is it their personal presence that burns the demons?
Or, is it the activity of the Holy Spirit or an Angel that does these things on their behalf…

…while the saint remains in heaven?
This debate was new at the turn of the 5th century, and wouldn’t be resolved until the 7th.
Saint Augustine wrote On the Care of the Dead specifically because he received a letter from Saint Paulinus of Nola asking him whether…

…burial ad Santos is beneficial for the dead.
Burial ad Sanctos was a common practice in the cult of the saints, where when a person died they would be buried in proximity to the relics of a saint, or on the precincts of a shrine/church, so that they would receive benefits…

…from being on holy ground.
There had not been a formulated theology explaining in-depth the exact benefits derived, but it was taken for granted everywhere and was intimately connected with the practice of erecting shrines for and churches in honour of particular saints.

Augustine was not always entirely clear on the question of whether it is the Saint who personally acts in the world, or the Holy Spirit or an Angel on their behalf.
He tended toward the latter view, which is the position he takes in On the Care of the Dead.

Above all Augustine is concerned with maintaining that it is only according to the pleasure of God and by his power that such things happen.
The context of chapter 16 of this work is that Augustine is using OT episodes.
I will cite chapters 14-20 to show that…

…a portion of chapter 16 has been taken out of context, and that Augustine’s thought here is not a denial of the cult of the saints.
If you read the text, this should be very clear.
Now, Augustine’s tendency to think that it is Angels/the Spirit doing miracles and whatnot…

…rather than the saints themselves as empowered by the Spirit, was a minority position.
Attached, after two concluding segments from Augustine, are additional comments from other Fathers on the matter.
To begin, Maximus of Turin in his 12th Sermon (contemporary with Augustine).

An excerpt from none other than Paulinus of Nola himself, about a decade before his exchange with Augustine.
There are many more I could give, but the final word on the matter ought to be concerning the playing out of the debate over how/by what means the saints act.

Except a thread on this at some point.
For now, this will suffice.