Thread by @JewishWonk

Listening to Zelensky's interview with the last remaining independent Russian media outlets and I'm struck by how insane it is to paint this man as some kind of Russophobe. He speaks Russian with such comfort and speed. It is his mother tongue.

Putin and other Russian nationalists wax poetic about Русский мир - the Russian world. They talk about Slavic brotherhood and defending the needs of Russian speakers. But you have to ask yourself what they mean compared to their actions. Their actions speak of domination.

In this interview Zelensky talks about the difference between vlast - government - and norod - the people. An idea that is immediately familiar to all Russian speakers, that is completely alien to western ears. It will be featured in an upcoming piece of mine 👀👀

Zelensky talks about the analytical errors of the Russian gov, believing its own propaganda about the lack of national identity in Ukraine. It's true! I've seen some (unverified) commentary suggesting Russian intelligence didn't even approach Ukraine as it would, say, China.

There's a lot of commentary out there about the failures of the Russian military, but the chief failure is a political one. Nobody who has paid attention to Ukraine's politics in the last 8 years would conclude they lack a commitment to a national identity.

Zelensky confirms that Russian forces control Mariupol, noting that the entrances and exits are controlled by Russian forces and that the water ways are mined. He goes on to note that attempts to provide humanitarian relief have been met with Russians shooting truck drivers.

Zelensky goes on to note that attempts to evacuate Mariupol civilians have been met with Russians redirecting civilians, including 2,000 children, into Russian controlled territory. He characterizes what they are doing as stealing children & treating civilians as an exchange fund

Zelensky claims to be maintaining contact with Ukrainian forces in besieged Mariupol. In these conversations he claims he told them it is their choice on whether to stay or evacuate. The forces allegedly choose to stay to defend the wounded and bury the dead.

Zelensky is painting a hellish picture of Mariupol. Describing scenes of "piles" of bodies being left in the streets across the city. This includes dead Russian forces. The Russians he claims do nothing for their dead.

There is a strong cultural stigma to what he is alleging.

Zelensky reiterates the point on the dead and the wounded in Mariupol, claiming they tried to reach deals with the Russians to evacuate the wounded and to bury the dead of both sides. Zelensky claims the Russians denied all requests.

Consider that Zelensky is accurate. That the Russians are leaving the bodies of their own men to rot in the streets of Mariupol

Russian mothers will not even have a body to bury. Will they even be given notice that their sons died?

That's the difference between vlast and norod

Zelensky talks about attempts to negotiate with the Russians for their dead soldiers - repeatedly referring to them as children, noting that many were born in 2003-2004. He describes the Russians as uninterested... That all the Russians offer in these talks are trash bags.

Zelensky says that these responses from the Russians, treating their own war dead as trash, terrify him.

He says "if this is how they [Russian forces] relate to their own, how do they relate to others?"

Zelensky says he knows what the Ukrainians are fighting for, but asks what the Russians are fighting for. He notes how much they intercept in Russian communications - completely demoralized soldiers, who he continues to refer to as children.

This is effective political rhetoric

Zelensky talks about how the Russians are reducing cities and towns to scorched earth... That the destruction shown in the media is not capturing the true extent of it, that his government is opting not to show the people the imagery because of how horrifying it is.

Zelensky talks about how Russia is assaulting Ukraine during what is the planting season for farmers. That the grain from Ukraine supplies Europe and the Arab world, including allies of Russia. He rhetorically asks what the Russians think they are accomplishing with this assault.

The Russian interviewers apologize for interrupting Zelensky to ask a question, and Zelensky interrupts them to say that it's good, that he needs to be interrupted.

If you ever doubted Zelensky's Jewish bona fides, there they are.

The Russian interviewers ask Zelensky how he feels about Russians since the invasion, how his people feel about Russians, and if there's a path back to normalizing relations between Russians and Ukrainians.

Zelensky is slow and deliberate in his response here. (continued...)

Zelensky talks about how Russian-speaking Ukrainians felt following the Donbas invasion in 2014. That they felt it was a misunderstanding. That an understanding could be reached. That an understanding must be reached.

He describes the 22 invasion as a historical cultural rupture

Zelensky goes on to talk about how he views the Russian people now. That he's grateful for those who oppose the war and those who support Ukraine, but of his deep disappointment with Russians who support the war. He says it's too easy to attribute it to propaganda.

"In a few months, each and every Ukrainian family will feel the loss of this war. They may be different... An exile, an injury, a (loss of) child. They could flee to Poland or Bulgaria. They could find work or not, it doesn't matter... Every family will feel the loss."
-Zelensky

Zelensky reminds the interviewers of the horrors that come with any military occupation. It is never a pretty business.

But he notes how the Russians are not even occupying to retain the benefits of a territory... That if Ukrainians resist, "everything is burned."

My own two cents: Putin wished to retain a Russian sphere of influence in countries neighboring his own. He wanted to use Russian speaking residents to advance this agenda.

I can't imagine who hates him more now than Russian speakers in Ukraine's eastern territories.

One other note: Zelensky talks about how Ukrainians come out to resist Russian forces that occupy their cities. I've seen Ukrainians talk about this before, about their disappointment in Russians for not mobilizing against this war. 1/2

Many Westerners, without any conception of the dangers involved, feel comfortable calling for Russians to protest the war. It's easy for us.

Ukrainians aren't expecting from the Russians anything more than they ask of themselves. They are facing armed Russians and resisting.

Back to Zelensky's interview with Russian media...

Zelensky is asked how he feels about cultural boycotts against Russian artists and culture. He notes the attitudes towards the Russian language.

"Pro-Ukraine does not have to be delivered in Ukrainian... Understand that it's not like that here."

Zelensky goes on to say that the most harm done to Russian language and culture in Ukraine has been done by Putin. Noting that it is Russian speaking families who have borne the brunt of Russia's invasion of the Donbas, that many fled to Mariupol, that they are suffering twice.

Zelensky says it is inevitable that some people will feel embarrassed speaking Russian since the language is becoming so closely associated with Russian state violence against Ukrainians.

I want to remind readers here that Zelensky delivers this message in crisp Russian.

On the topic of boycotts of Russian athletes and other public figures, Zelensky says that people have a hard time understanding why they would be boycotted when they aren't even involved in the war. He reminds them that Russia uses its athletes as a tool to raise its prestige.

Zelensky rejects the idea that there is no value in Russians speaking out. He invokes ideas prevalent in the Russian speaking world that are skeptical of democratic action and says they are wrong. That even changing one person's mind is a worthwhile effort to lend one's voice to.

The Russian interviewers move the discussion to the realm of diplomacy, asking Zelensky on the progress of the talks, noting particular points raised in public by Turkey's leader, and asking Zelensky to explain how a referendum to vote on a deal would work in war-torn Ukraine.

Zelensky begins by noting where talks between Russia and Ukraine began. That in fact they weren't even talks, that it wasn't even private ultimatums, but public ultimatums whose purpose was information warfare to show that Russia is trying diplomacy.

Zelensky notes how the Russians make a lot of broad demands for the purpose of dragging out talks, that this is a tactic the Ukrainians became accustomed to in the context of the Minsk negotiations over the years.

Zelensky gives an aside, talking about how they found ceremonial uniforms among captured soldiers, that the Russians even before they began making demands in talks had planned to march through Ukrainian city squares with their tanks celebrating their victory.

On the Russian demands for demilitarization and de-nazification, Zelensky says that they have not and will not engage on these points. That the demands are incomprehensible to him.

Zelensky is a master of throwing shade. Noting that the Russians treated it as some kind of victory his willingness to have Ukrainian negotiators meet with Russians in Belarus.

"If it makes Lukashenko feel like the master of his own house again, good for him. I don't care."

On the point of protecting the Russian language and its speakers, Zelensky says he instructed his negotiators to remind the Russians how each additional day of war impacts how Ukrainians feel about the Russian language, the culture, and Russian media content.

Zelensky says he is fed up with this talking point about the Russian language in Ukraine. That people are free to speak and be taught in whatever language they please, that his government has no objections to Russian language schools.

The Russian interviewers seek clarification, as it sounds like Zelensky brushed off the Russian demand on protecting the Russian language. (They're good reporters... I was wondering the same)

Zelensky says that protecting Russian is on the table in negotiations.

Zelensky notes that Russian speakers are not the only national minority in Ukraine, that his government is interested in reaching similar deals to protect languages with other neighbors, specifically mentioning Poland, Hungary, and Romania and their respective languages.

Zelensky says he feels confident that the issue of protecting the Russian language in Ukraine can and will be resolved in negotiations with the Russians.

On to security questions in the negotiations...

On ensuring that Ukraine remains a non-nuclear power, Zelensky says his government is prepared to commit to that.

Alex's note: should be an easy thing to commit to, considering they gave up their nukes in 1994!

Zelensky talks about what Russia claimed was its real reason for war, that it had talked about for many years, the eastern expansion of NATO. He reminds the interviewers that non-alignment is enshrined in Ukraine's constitution.

Zelensky says he understands Russia's claimed concerns about NATO expansion, that this has been discussed and worked on extensively. He goes on to note that what is important to him is that this deal not become "another piece of paper" like the Budapest Memorandum.

For the unfamiliar, the Budapest Memorandum was a security guarantee the Russians, Americans, and British signed in 1994 committing to the territorial security of Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan in exchange for them giving up their nukes.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_…

Zelensky says that the 1994 deal was just a piece of paper, that he wants any deal reached with the Russians to have security guarantees for Ukraine from other countries that are binding and are ratified by their respective parliaments.

With respect to a referendum in Ukraine on a deal with Russia, Zelensky claims that it's a matter of law. That any changes to Ukraine's security status and commitments require constitutional changes.

Zelensky says the Russian negotiators at the start of talks appeared clueless about what their demands would mean in Ukraine's constitutional process. He describes it as requiring "two sessions" -there may be a better way to translate what he's saying, I am going with the literal

Two sessions, Zelensky explains, will take a year to complete. That these are constitutional changes separate from a referendum. Zelensky says a referendum is a faster process than changing the constitution.

If I understand Zelensky correctly here, what he is saying is that the terms being negotiated with the Russians will trigger a constitutional process. That a referendum affirming the deal, because it is quicker, can act as a demonstration that Ukraine will follow through.

The Russian interviewers ask if Ukrainian refugees who fled the country will be able to participate in the referendum. "Of course" says Zelensky. He says that Ukraine has election infrastructure (polling places) set up abroad, and that it has been used in previous elections.

Zelensky reminds the interviewers that, while many Ukrainians fled, fighting age men stayed due to the draft. That it was women and children who fled. He says that the people who fled have a strong desire to return the moment the fighting stops, to be reunited with their men.

Zelensky says that guarantors to a deal will not make any commitments while Russian troops are on Ukrainian soil, that the main impediment to talks is Putin and his insistence on continuing this war.

Zelensky says he will meet with Putin anywhere in the world besides the lands of participants to this conflict (i.e., he won't go to Belarus or Russia to sign this deal)

Zelensky says anywhere else he's prepared to meet Putin and sign a deal.

Zelensky claims that if a deal can be reached between himself and Putin, that this would be sufficient to begin the process of winding down this war, beginning with Russian troops withdrawing.

The Russian interviewers focus on this order of events that Zelensky is describing, of reaching a deal between leaders, of Russian troops withdrawing, and then a referendum being held.

Zelensky doubles down and says no referendum during a military occupation is realistic.

Zelensky invokes the referendum held in Crimea during Russian occupation to remind his Russian interviewers why he does not regard a referendum held under occupation as a valid one.

Zelensky also notes that negotiations regarding the status of the Donbas and Ukraine's commitments to it are being negotiated.

Alex note: I'm used to diplomatic euphemisms in English, but I don't have as much experience with them in Russian. Bottom line on the Donbas: I believe Zelensky is saying that Ukraine will not be demanding the return of the Donbas in these negotiations.

The Russian interviewers are keen observers. They note a @WSJ piece reporting that Zelensky personally asked Biden to not sanction Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich, likely due to his involvement in talks. They say there are rumors of a parallel unofficial channel of negotiations

The interviewers ask Zelensky to confirm whether or not there is a parallel unofficial channel of talks.

Zelensky's response is... Interesting.

He says first that there are enormous amounts of contacts being made. He says what they are referring to is happening... And working.

Zelensky confirms that his administration has been in contact with certain cultural and business figures who have sought to open their own channels of negotiations. He says that this has been happening for years among journalists, culture figures, and businessmen.

Zelensky says that despite all of these efforts it's proven impossible to reach the Russian government via these channels.

Zelensky declines to talk about what he and Biden privately discussed. Regarding Abramovich, he says that the oligarch was involved on the Russian side, unclear whether officially or unofficially, and that he played a role in pushing humanitarian relief for residents of Mariupol.

Zelensky reminds the interviewers that all these efforts were for naught. That the humanitarian relief convoys to Mariupol were fired upon.

Zelensky says Russian oligarchs have been reaching out, offering to set up business in Ukraine, to invest in the country. He characterizes these efforts as frequent, early, and likely driven by fear of the impact of sanctions.

The interviewers ask if Zelensky's office is coordinating these outreach efforts. Zelensky says no structure has been set up to coordinate these "signals." He says that they come through informal channels, including communal channels such as from the Jewish and Muslim communities

Zelensky says the outreach is overwhelming, but that his message is the same to all Russian businessmen, regardless of their influence. Those who support Ukraine and its army now will receive security, and will be allowed to conduct business & work in Ukraine after the war.

The interviewers ask if Zelensky discusses lifting sanctions (presumably western ones) on these businessmen. Zelensky says he only speaks in his capacity as Ukraine's leader, that they can do business in Ukraine after the war, even gain citizenship, if they support Ukraine now.

Sidenote: when I began tweeting this conversation between Zelensky and the remaining independent media in Russia, I did not realize it was a 90 min convo. This YouTube video has another 30 min to go...

I will power through but know that I am angry with myself for this free labor

One of the interviewers asks Zelensky on the value of the talks in general and a second question on the idea, which he says was floated by Polish President Duda, of peacekeepers being stationed in Ukraine.

Zelensky says that his government encouraged "certain" peacekeepers when nuclear facilities were being attacked. It didn't happen. The latest idea Zelensky says comes from the Poles, and he claims he doesn't fully understand it. "We don't need a permanent frozen conflict."

Correction to the question the interviewer asked: he was asking about Ukraine-U.S. talks as Biden and his staff visited Poland.

Zelensky says he's not prepared to go into details on what his admin spoke to the Biden admin about. He says that things he has discussed publicly, such as control of Ukraine's skies, were reiterated in this conversation. He declines to share what the American response was.

One of the interviewers asks Zelensky to comment on claims from the Russian government that Ukraine was preparing an attack in the Donbas.

He says it's "fake" - he used this English word.

Zelensky says that since he entered office in 2019 he has used every channel available to him to communicate to the Russians that he has no intention of retaking Ukrainian territory by military means, that he wants a diplomatic solution.

Sidenote: there's a certain American commentator who is wrong on a lot of issues of international affairs who has repeatedly claimed that Ukraine was not doing enough to keep the Russians happy... No acknowledgement of the claims in the previous tweet while making this claim.

Zelensky says he tried to arrange meetings with Russian leaders via a dozen countries. He says he was told it's humiliating to pursue such talks on his own. He says he does not care how he was seen because he knew what the alternative was, which is what Ukraine is surviving now.

Zelensky asks the journalists to note that in the docs the Russians released claiming he gave orders to retake Crimea, that his signature features a letter that does not exist in Ukrainian, but does in Russian. (Ukrainian speakers will have to validate this, I only speak Russian)

The implication of Zelensky's point in the previous tweet being that the Russians are faking documents to justify their war and in the process are making basic errors that are easy to disprove.

We have gotten to a fun topic in this interview: the Russian warship go f yourself story. The journalists note that Zelensky gave them posthumous awards, only for us all to learn they survived. He asks Zelensky what really happened there

Zelensky answers curtly and somberly that some of the personnel on snake island did in fact die. That they negotiated for the release of the others. Russia made the proposal, and the Ukrainians he claims accepted without hesitation.

One of the journalists asks Zelensky to comment on the biolabs, saying that it's become a popular talking point on Russian TV and was even circulated by Daily Mail in the UK. With a smirk Zelensky says it's an "anecdote" (a joke)

"There is nothing to explain. We don't have them."

-Zelensky on Russia's claims of weaponized biolabs in Ukraine

An insight into Zelensky's thinking: unprompted he talks about the 1994 negotiations and says knowing what he knows now he would not have given up the "national interest." (Presumably referring to nukes) he also criticizes Ukraine's then gov for its handling of Crimea.

Zelensky says it's not on the character of Ukrainians to do the things Russia alleges, in particular the chemical weapons claims. He goes on to say that "empires are built on economics, not on intimidation."

That's a different view of the world than that held by Putin.

A journalist asks a very smart question: How does Zelensky define, if he does at all, military victory for Ukraine?

Zelensky: to minimize civilian casualties. To shorten the length of the war. To return Russian forces to the lines established before the Feb 24 invasion.

Zelensky says he knows it's not realistic to drive Russian forces off of all the territory they have occupied, that doing so would provoke a third world war.

Zelensky characterizes this objective as a compromise.

Zelensky says that returning to the pre-Feb 24 lines they can later address the complex issue of the Donbas region. He says he's not 70, he has time to negotiate that one.

(subtext: Putin is 70)

There's a bit of a miscommunication here and Zelensky gets to talking about the realities of conquering territory, and why he never had the appetite to do it, that retaking Donbas and Crimea by force was not worth the price in lives.

Zelensky is asked to comment on Russian-backed separatists declaring that they want to join Russia.

He says people can claim whatever they want. He knew these people in the 90s and they were called sportsmen, that is athletes who don't medal. They think they're important.

I have to tell you, that Zelensky's ability to still be so funny in the middle of a war is amazing to me. Not surprising to me that he built the career in entertainment that he did. Charisma and humor can take you far.

Zelensky goes on to say that beneath their suits they're still wearing their old sports clothes. He will talk to their master (Putin), not to them.

The journalists ask Zelensky to comment on the 10 alleged assassination attempts against him.

Zelensky says there's not much to say. His security is handling it and exterminating anyone who seeks to infiltrate to hunt.

The journalists ask Zelensky if he has any final words for Russians.

Z says he knows that a significant percentage of Russians support the truth. He asks them to talk to their neighbors and friends and loved ones. He knows the dangers, but he says the war cannot end without it.

Z goes on to say that a war that ends with fences and grenades being lobbed over fences hasn't truly ended at all. That to truly end the war Russians have to know their government made a huge mistake. That it cost Russians dearly. That it broke ties between Russians & Ukrainians.

Zelensky says that Russians and Ukrainians must think of their children and grandchildren. That for this generation it is impossible to forgive, but there is a chance for the next generations.

"We understand that we will not be leaving these lands. Not us. Not you."

Zelensky continues... Rejecting the politics of reclaiming land by military means. He says Ukrainians have no war lust, that they are fighting for their loved ones and for their homes. He would not invade Crimea because he has no desire to see people, especially his own, suffer.

Like a proper Jewish goodbye this conversation is in fact not over. The journalists ask Zelensky what he believes motivated Putin to take these actions. Zelensky says Putin is not so simple.

Zelensky says Putin has a "multi-vector approach" (I'm translating literally) to the question of Russia's foreign policy. Factors include:

-Russia's position in the world
-Russia's type of leadership
-Who left Russia
-Who has a right to not be part of Russia (nations)

Zelensky brings up the demographic considerations, noting how many Russian speakers live outside of Russia's borders, and how Putin wishes to reclaim them through force.

Zelensky continues by noting the geopolitical position of Ukraine, and the dangers it poses for Russia if it integrates with the EU and dramatically advances the economic quality of living for its citizens, what takeaways Russians will have seeing that

Zelensky says that Putin has many considerations, but that his decision making has not been strategic. That Putin's awareness of his own mortality is resulting in rash decisions.

"Strategy is what happens over 100 years."

Putin, he believes, is being motivated by his legacy.

That's the end of the thread folks. I did not plan on devoting 4 hours to translating this, but it's a good conversation and a good insight into Zelensky's current thinking. Pay close attention to how he thinks about the future and about the particulars of the negotiations.