Thread by @dhadjowa

Court will shortly resume for Day 4 of the Coronial Inquest into the death in custody of Veronica Nelson. Please attend to support Veronica's Family, or live link: csvic.webex.com/csvic/onstage/…
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

The Coroner notes that the Court is running behind on the witness schedule. Updated dates for key evidence to follow #JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Antos returns to the witness box to continue his evidence. Antos was the barrister Jill Prior briefed, who spoke with Veronica before she appeared self-represented at the Bail and Remand Court in Melbourne & who was present in the court when she made her application for bail

Counsel for Mr Percy Lovett, Veronica’s partner, begins questioning. To recap, yesterday Mr Antos appeared to have problems recalling details about his interactions with Veronica.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel asks qs about when Antos learnt about Veronica’s death. Counsel puts to Antos that at the time he would have recalled the conversation that he had with Veronica, given that he found out about her passing just days after their interaction at the BARC

Q: What you are saying is that you remembered your conversation with Veronica, but went on to completely forget about it?

A: The term ‘completely forget about it’... since that day I have met with a significant number of ppl... It’s not deliberate...regrettably I can’t recall

Q: If I were to submit to you that you do in fact have a memory of your interactions with Veronica, what would you say to that?

Tass: No, no, that’s not the case.

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Antos is cross-examined on s3AAA of the Bail Act, and factors relevant to Veronica’s bail app and in favour of her case for meeting the exceptional circumstances threshold including: her Aboriginality, presence of stable address, the low [& non-violent] level of alleged offending

Counsel: You were shown the records yesterday indicating that you and Veronica spent 6 minutes together on the 31st of December?

A: I agree with what the record says

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

C: Do you accept that you didn’t have time to do these things (take instructions from Veronica, read the file and briefing materials) in the 6 minutes available to you?

A: Well I would have.

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

C: When Veronica went before the magistrate the first thing she said is that she wanted to apply for bail

Counsel suggests to Antos that he wouldn’t have had time to adequately communicate to Veronica the things that were going to help her achieve a bail app in 6 minutes

Counsel puts to Antos that he didn’t have time to properly advise Veronica, or to have explained to her the factors she would’ve needed to put forward to make the strongest case for bail when she self-represented

“I don’t recall whether I did or didn’t”

Mr Antos is asked about the short amount of time he spent with Veronica prior to Veronica appearing in court to apply for bail.

Q: So there would have been more time available if you needed it?

A: Yes

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel: it appears from the audio recording of the bail hearing that Veronica didn’t know you were there [in the courtroom]

Antos: Based on the audio, yes that’s one way to look at it, yes

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Antos is questioned on the brief he received [to assist Veronica]

A: I would make an assessment of the matter and subject to that, do what was done. I didn’t necessarily think it was a brief to do a bail application.

Q: But you didn’t do anything that day. Do you agree?

A: No

Counsel: Ms Prior was under the understanding that you would make an application of bail for Veronica. Do you accept that?

Antos: My understanding was somewhat different

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel: My concern is that when she [Veronica] was asked [by the Magistrate at the bail hearing] whether she had a lawyer and she said she did not, in fact she did have a lawyer, sitting behind her in court and that lawyer was you.

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel: If you weren’t going to assist her in the bail application, did you advise her that she could speak to another duty lawyer?

Antos: I can’t recall whether I did or didn’t

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Antos is asked about the email where he described Veronica as “aggressive and dismissive”

C: The police statements and the audio of the police interview, witnesses who have come before the court have all described [Veronica] as being compliant and obedient... 1/2

Counsel: For example, Prior described her as “calm and considered”… On the audio, even when she is pressing the buzzer asking for help she is not aggressive. I am suggesting to you it’s possible that she wasn’t aggressive and dismissive with you. Do you agree you might be wrong?

Counsel: In the three days, You were the only person [who said] that Veronica was aggressive…do you accept that?

Antos: I can’t speak to that

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Rishi Nathwani, Counsel for Aunty Donna Nelson commences questioning. Mr Antos is asked about standard practices by which lawyers are briefed by other solicitors.

C: Accepting all this, do you agree that you were briefed to represent Veronica?

Antos: the briefed bit, yes.

Antos is asked about the call from Jill Prior and when he was instructed to go and see Veronica.

Counsel for Aunty Donna Nelson: You were instructed to represent Veronica….You go and see Veronica for 6 mins

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel for Aunty Donna Nelson: In those 6 minutes you did not undertake your best practice as you do with other clients like Veronica

A: I’ll accept that.

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel for Aunty Donna Nelson qs Mr Antos as to why he would have been paged by the court in the hearing on the bail app if he were not her legal representative

Q: Do you agree that the only reason they would have been paging you was because you were down as representing her?

1/2 Antos is asked about whether he attempted to collate all notes and emails after hearing of Veronica’s passing

A: As I understood it, the materials I had were to be sent back to Ms Prior’s office

C: When you were speaking to Veronica were you taking notes of the discussion?

2/2 Antos: Yes, I would have had all the legal aid paperwork…

Counsel: So your notes would be in the brief?

Antos: Yes..

Counsel: There is not one hand written note on any of the brief that you returned to Jill Prior. All there is is a sticky note

Counsel: Did you form the conclusion that Veronica’s bail application had absolutely no merit

Antos: …I think i determined there were some high hurdles

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

(1 of 2) Antos is asked about info given in a statement to the court referencing a phone conversation he had with a legal aid lawyer where it’s alleged he said Veronica Nelson had, “no prospects of bail”.

(2 of 2) Antos responds, “I can’t recall who I spoke to or what I might have said, but if it was an in-person bail application, there might have been some hurdles”

Nathwani: Did the fact you thought she had no prospects for bail affect your decision-making in terms of how you advised Veronica?
Antos: I can’t recall
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Nathwani: Your memo seems to indicate that you were the person who advised Veronica to make a self-represented bail app?
Antos: Yes, I would agree with that
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Nathwani: Do you agree interaction of six minutes [the time Antos spent speaking with Veronica] is particularly short?
Antos: Yes. I thought it was longer as I said yesterday.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Q: In this period of time you formed the view she was aggressive? She wouldn’t sign a form related to funding?
A:..
Q: You decided she had no prospects of success?
A: Y
Q: You persuaded her to make an in-person bail application?
A: Advised, I wouldn’t use the word persuaded

Asked whether when he saw Veronica he accepted that she was vulnerable within the meaning of the Bail Act, Antos agreed. Asked on what basis, Antos said, 'because she was an Indigenous person'.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Asked about her drug use as a vulnerability factor, Antos said, “I might have been aware of that.” Asked whether there was any other information relevant or in Veronica's favour for her bail application, Antos said, “I can’t recall that conversation, so no.”

Rishi Nathwani, Counsel for Aunty Donna Nelson, Veronica’s Mother: Do you accept that you have dropped the ball as far as Veronica Nelson was concerned?
Antos: No
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Nathwani: When someone self represents do you accept that you… should instruct them on what they are saying?
Antos: Yes
Nathwani: Did it happen in relation to Veronica?
Antos: No
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

(1 of 3) Antos is asked about the audio/transcript from Veronica’s self-represented bail application, where she says only that she wants bail and tells the Magistrate she has ill family members, but does not raise other factors in favour of her being granted bail under s3AAA

(2 of 3) Nathwani: There is nothing [raised in the bail application hearing] about being vulnerable, about her personal circumstances, only being in for shop-lifting, nothing about 3a, nothing relating to her Aboriginality.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

(3 of 3)
Nathwani: Why wasn’t she told to say any of that?
Antos: I can’t recall if that was a discussion we had or not, so I can’t agree with your proposition
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Q: Do you agree that 6 mins to go through all this, the briefs, priors, personal circumstances, it's not going to happen in 6 mins?
A: I thought it went for longer, but if you are saying did I read thru everything... briefs, priors, advice and all that, no, 6 mins is not enough.

Questions move to the Bail Support (CISP) program, which assists people facing charges to access support services, including Koori specific services and drug and alcohol treatment services
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Nathwani: Were you aware there was a potential CISP [bail support] assessment [for Veronica]?
Antos: No
Nathwani: Did you make inquiries for CISP?
Antos: I can’t recall
Nathwani: So we are back to you can’t recall, we don’t have notes and it’s the great unknown

Taken to evidence given yesterday about his being informed in a conversation in a shared lift at the Mag Court that Veronica Nelson had passed away in custody, Mr Antos said, “I am very sorry, but I can’t recall the conversation”. He spoke of having been notified in writing.

Asked if he was in the same situation again & decision was made for an unrepresnted bail app, whether he would run this past his instructing solicitor, Antos responds, "if one had a crystal ball, one would do many diff things with their life...One could have, could not have."

(1 of 2)
Nathwani: You accept..that you should have at least stayed and ensured that custody management issues for Veronica were entered into the court system properly?
Antos:.. if they weren’t noted on the court system, it may have been that I wasn’t in the courtroom by then..

(2 of 2) Antos: … again I can’t recall with any precision, if there were people doing in-person bail app’s, a note would be given to the court registrar and put on file re custody management.. I couldn’t say if that happened

Nathwani: Shouldn’t you just stay until the end of the [bail] hearing in the body of the court and if neceasary, rise to your feet and advise the judicial officer of custody management issues?
Antos: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

After lunch break, Antos is excused. The former Koori Court Officer takes the stand, and Counsel Assisting asks a series of questions about the role, functioning of the Koori Court & support and other services offered to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander People facing charges

C: Why did you not get notified about Veronica [being in custody]?
Former Koori Court Officer: I honestly, I could not say for sure. I kind of have asked myself that question a lot.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Q: VALS gets notified about an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander person entering custody & you don't get notification… Would notification have assisted in this case?
Q: Definitely.. it would have definitely meant me going into the custody center to say hello & are you ok?

The Court hears evidence about the importance of the role of the Koori Court Officer (KCO) in providing cultural support for First Nations people in custody
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel Assisting: Would you say she [Veronica] was culturally isolated if she had no access to community or an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander person in that time [in custody]?
KCO: Yes, I believe she was culturally isolated.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

The next witness called to give evidence is a Senior Prison Officer at Dame Phyllis Frost Centre (DPFC) maximum security women's prison. She was working in the Medical Unit in December of 2019 when Veronica arrived at DPFC. Counsel Assisting begins questioning the witness.

C: In your statement you recall seeing [Veronica] through to the med unit. You say that she looked unwell and frail. What led you to describe her that way?

Officer: ...I’d never seen anyone look so unwell. Veronica was always polite. From my eyes she just seemed very sick

C: You also say that you thought she [Veronica] was withdrawing from drugs

O: The nurses had informed us

C: Did they inform you of anything else?

O: No

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

C: Was there any directive that came through from the nurses because she was withdrawing from drugs?

O: Keep fluids up, offering food when needed, and regular checks

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

C: Do you consider drug withdrawal as a medical condition?
O: I would
C: In terms of attitude of the center and other people working in it, would that also be the case?
O: I can’t speak for anyone else.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

C: Can I ask you in relation to your observations and concerns about her appearing very unwell. How is that information recorded or conveyed by you at the time?

O: I’d notify my supervisor, and if I've got any concerns, I’ll let the nurses know

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

C: Did you express your concerns about the unwellness of Veronica?

O: We all did

C: You said that you were all concerned about Veronica's unwellness, can you say who?

O: I can’t recall

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

The prison officer gives evidence that she spoke to her supervisor about Veronica’s health

C: What did you say?

O: Just how unwell she was. I couldn't believe how small, frail and unwell she was. I have never seen anyone so tiny. I think thats why it left a memory in my mind

C: As far as you saw it all corrections staff were in agreement that Veronica was very unwell?

O: Yes. She was a very unwell woman

C: If she was a relative of yours at home, would you have sent her to a hospital?

O: I probably would have

The Court hears of Veronica’s condition and repeated vomiting in the time that this officer is on shift during the day:

C: She’s moved [cells] a couple of times because she’s vomited?

Officer: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

C: Can you say how long a prisoner would normally stay in the medical unit without being transferred out to a hospital?

O: I can’t say

C: would you usually see a prisoner stay for more than one night?

O: Not very often, but sometimes

The officer explains that when there are prisoners in the medical cells overnight, there are nurses on duty 24/7, but doctors only 7am- 4pm. If a prisoner needs to see a doc after 4pm, nurses would assess and consult the on-call doc

“It’s up to the nurse to make the decision”

The officer is asked a number of qs about staffing in the medical unit overnight

C: Is it true that there are reduced nursing staff in the evening?
O: Yes

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

C: Are you saying that the prisoner officer who is on duty overnight in the med centre does not have keys to the cells?
O: No
C: So for a prisoner officer to have physical contact with Veronica, what would be required?
O: You would need the supervisor to come down to the cell

Court is adjourned until 10am monday morning when the senior prison officer from DFPC will be back on the stand and Counsel Assisting will continue with questioning of the witness

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

@threadreaderapp unroll