Day 14 of the Coronial Inquest into the death in custody of Veronica Nelson will resume at 10am. Today prison guard Tracey Brown will give evidence. If you are in Melbourne, please show up and support the family in person today or follow here for updates #JusticeForVeronicaNelson
If you can't attend in person today, you can join online via the below link: csvic.webex.com/mw3300/mywebex…
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Counsel Assisting begins questioning the witness. We hear that Tracey Brown had been working as a prison guard at DPFC for 18 months when Veronica died in Custody. Brown was working the night shift in the Yarra Unit on the night that Veronica died.
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#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
Brown is asked if she was aware that Veronica had stayed in Medical the night before on the 31 of Dec because she was unwell.
B: No I was not
CA: How would you normally be given that info?
B: It would be handed over by the 1st Watch Officer
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B: No I was not
CA: How would you normally be given that info?
B: It would be handed over by the 1st Watch Officer
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CA: You didn’t know [Veronica] was held in med for 24 hours because she had been unwell?
B: No
Brown is asked how this info would usually be communicated. She gives evidence that usually it would be written on the handover and verbally communicated
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B: No
Brown is asked how this info would usually be communicated. She gives evidence that usually it would be written on the handover and verbally communicated
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CA asks Brown a series of qs about the process for when a Prisoner is put on obs in the Yarra Unit & how often women would be checked when they are puts on obs.
Brown gives evidence that it depends on the type of obvs, but checks could be conducted between 30 mins to an hour
Brown gives evidence that it depends on the type of obvs, but checks could be conducted between 30 mins to an hour
CA asks Brown about what she would do when she was conducting one of these checks.
Brown give evidence that she would go to the cell door, lift the obs curtain and shine the torch in
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Brown give evidence that she would go to the cell door, lift the obs curtain and shine the torch in
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CA: What would happen if you saw that [a woman] looked very unwell?
Brown: I don’t know. I could go back to the office, try and wake her up, go back to intercom and have a chat with her... It’s very hard to answer that question
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Brown: I don’t know. I could go back to the office, try and wake her up, go back to intercom and have a chat with her... It’s very hard to answer that question
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CA: My interest is in what you might do if when you looked into the cell you...they were physically unwell, like vomiting or looking like they were in extreme discomfort?
Brown: They would buzz up...they would have already contacted me...and let me know they were vomiting
Brown: They would buzz up...they would have already contacted me...and let me know they were vomiting
CA: Do you have any more options available to you if a prison is in a cell and needs your assistance?
B: Depends on what state they're in, I could call a code.
CA: Would that be a Code Black?
B: Only if they are unresponsive...
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B: Depends on what state they're in, I could call a code.
CA: Would that be a Code Black?
B: Only if they are unresponsive...
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CA: When did you find out [Veronica] was unwell?
Brown: When she buzzed up that first time I recall asking her that question
Brown gives evidence that when Veronica buzzed up she asked Veronica if she was withdrawing. She says this is a standard question she asks all Prisoners
Brown: When she buzzed up that first time I recall asking her that question
Brown gives evidence that when Veronica buzzed up she asked Veronica if she was withdrawing. She says this is a standard question she asks all Prisoners
CA plays the audio recording of Brown's first contact with Veronica on her shift about 1:27am. Veronica says she is cramping badly.
CA: You ask [Veronica] have you tried some fluids?
B: Yes
CA: Can you say why you did that?
B: We just try and sort of calm them a little bit
CA: You ask [Veronica] have you tried some fluids?
B: Yes
CA: Can you say why you did that?
B: We just try and sort of calm them a little bit
CA: Is this based on your knowledge/experience of other patients who are withdrawing?
B: Yes and...if I was to contact medical that would be one of the things they would ask me
CA: If they have had any fluids?
B: Yes
CA: Do you know why fluids is important?
B: Not really no
B: Yes and...if I was to contact medical that would be one of the things they would ask me
CA: If they have had any fluids?
B: Yes
CA: Do you know why fluids is important?
B: Not really no
The Court is played audio of another woman, Bonnie McSweeney in the cell next to Veronica using the intercom at 1:31am
"Someone needs help down here" - McSweeney
Brown tells McSweeney that the nurse on duty is coming over from the Med Unit
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"Someone needs help down here" - McSweeney
Brown tells McSweeney that the nurse on duty is coming over from the Med Unit
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The Court is played the CCTV of Nurse George, Senior Officer Heath, Officer Tracey Brown and another officer walking towards the cell Veronica is at around 1:30am.
In Brown's notes from this attendance she has noted that Veronica appeared in pain and had cramped fingers.
In Brown's notes from this attendance she has noted that Veronica appeared in pain and had cramped fingers.
CA asks Brown she recorded these observations about Veronica.
Brown: I don't know if I wrote them straight away, but I would have written them through the course of the night
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Brown: I don't know if I wrote them straight away, but I would have written them through the course of the night
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CA asks a series of question about Brown's observations of Veronica when Nurse George came to give Veronica medication. Nurse George gave evidence yesterday that Veronica looked 'generally okay' at this point in time
CA: Did you see [Veronica] as she came up to the trap?
B: Yes
CA: Did you see [Veronica] as she came up to the trap?
B: Yes
CA: You say [Veronica] appeared in pain?
B: Yes
CA: What was it about the way she looked that lead you to describe her like that?
B: How her hand was when she popped her hand through the trap..She was sort of slumped over and the length of time she took to get to the trap
B: Yes
CA: What was it about the way she looked that lead you to describe her like that?
B: How her hand was when she popped her hand through the trap..She was sort of slumped over and the length of time she took to get to the trap
CA: Senior Officer Heath gave evidence that it looked like it took a lot of effort to get out of bed and get medication... that [Veronica] looked very unstable and fragile
B: I couldn't see that from where I was standing but I would agree with that
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B: I couldn't see that from where I was standing but I would agree with that
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CA: Officer Heath's evidence was that Veronica did not look well. Is that consistent or inconsistent with your observations?
B: Yes that would be consistent
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B: Yes that would be consistent
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Counsel Assisting: Senior Officer Heath also said that [Veronica's] hand cramped liked a claw was alarming
Officer Brown: Thats something I hadn't seen at all. Not in my 18 months, I hadn't seen a hand cramped like that before, no.
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Officer Brown: Thats something I hadn't seen at all. Not in my 18 months, I hadn't seen a hand cramped like that before, no.
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CA: Was that something the officers then discussed afterwards?
B: I can't recall if we discussed it, no
CA: Was there any discussion between nurse and officers?
B: I can’t recall, no
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B: I can't recall if we discussed it, no
CA: Was there any discussion between nurse and officers?
B: I can’t recall, no
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CA plays the CCTV and asks the witness if she can help the Coroner understand what is going on
CA: Can you remember what the nurse was asking Veronica?
B: I cant recall
Brown interjects at a point in the CCTV and indicates Nurse George is opening Veronica’s fingers up
CA: Can you remember what the nurse was asking Veronica?
B: I cant recall
Brown interjects at a point in the CCTV and indicates Nurse George is opening Veronica’s fingers up
CA: Did anyone suggest that the door should be opened so [Nurse George] can make a better assessment of Veronica?
B: No
CA: Did the nurse suggest the door should be opened?
B: No
CA: Did you observe any attempts to make any nursing obs?
B: No
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B: No
CA: Did the nurse suggest the door should be opened?
B: No
CA: Did you observe any attempts to make any nursing obs?
B: No
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CA: What was your understanding about the purpose of the nurse coming over?
B: To provide [Veronica] with pain relief
CA: Senior Officer Heath has said that she raised with Nurse George while in Yarra Unit that Veronica is very unwell… Is that something that you heard?
B: Yes
B: To provide [Veronica] with pain relief
CA: Senior Officer Heath has said that she raised with Nurse George while in Yarra Unit that Veronica is very unwell… Is that something that you heard?
B: Yes
CA: When did that occur?
B: When the nurse stands up and Ms Heath turns to her and they have that conversation...Just before the trap closes
B: What did George say in response?
B: I don’t recall her saying anything
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B: When the nurse stands up and Ms Heath turns to her and they have that conversation...Just before the trap closes
B: What did George say in response?
B: I don’t recall her saying anything
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CA: Does Nurse George ask any questions to you of how [Veronica] has presented over audio?
Brown: No
CA: Do you provide her with any detail of how she sounded over the audio?
Brown: No
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Brown: No
CA: Do you provide her with any detail of how she sounded over the audio?
Brown: No
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Counsel Assisting: Is the observation made by Heath that [Veronica] looks very unwell explored by any of the 4 of you?
Brown: No, not at that time
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Brown: No, not at that time
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The court is played 3 audio clips of Veronica, she is complaining of cramping. Brown tells Veronica,"You've gotta give the tablets time to work". In the 3rd clip Veronica tells Brown she's vomited them up. Brown responds,“The nurse isn’t going to come down and give you more”
CA: Why did you say “the nurse isn’t going to come down and give you more”?
Brown: Because they don't...from that timeframe the nurse would not come down
CA: What do you base that on?
Brown: Experience
CA: You’ve had that experience before?
Brown: Yes
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Brown: Because they don't...from that timeframe the nurse would not come down
CA: What do you base that on?
Brown: Experience
CA: You’ve had that experience before?
Brown: Yes
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In the audio clip Brown can then be heard saying "try and drink some fluids".
CA: Why did you give that advice?
B: Just trying to help. Trying to get her to not think about. Trying to get her something that might relieve it. I don't know
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CA: Why did you give that advice?
B: Just trying to help. Trying to get her to not think about. Trying to get her something that might relieve it. I don't know
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At 2:13am, 4 mins later Veronica uses the intercom again
V: I need something for my cramps
B: The nurse has given you something, she’s not going to give you anything else..
V: Can you try ring her please?
B: ….Have you got any salt?.. I'll try the nurse and see what she says...
V: I need something for my cramps
B: The nurse has given you something, she’s not going to give you anything else..
V: Can you try ring her please?
B: ….Have you got any salt?.. I'll try the nurse and see what she says...
CA: In the convo you give her suggestion of salt, where does that come from?
B: My understanding is that salt helps with cramps…
CA: Is that something that nurses have given advice about before?
B: No
CA: You were drawing on your own experience
B: Yes, my own experience
B: My understanding is that salt helps with cramps…
CA: Is that something that nurses have given advice about before?
B: No
CA: You were drawing on your own experience
B: Yes, my own experience
CA asks Brown if she did call Nurse George after she told Veronica that she would call the nurse.
Brown: I cant recall if I called straight away or called again later. I may have waited for Veronica to buzz up again and then called [the nurse]
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Brown: I cant recall if I called straight away or called again later. I may have waited for Veronica to buzz up again and then called [the nurse]
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The Court hears evidence that Brown did not call the med unit until 3am. The Court is played audio of Veronica using the intercom system again at 2:42am. In this interaction between Brown and Veronica, Brown tells Veronica "She (the nurse) hasn't got back to me as of yet”
CA: Is it the case you haven’t actually called the nurse?
Brown: Yes
CA: What you said to Veronica is not correct?
Brown: That's correct
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Brown: Yes
CA: What you said to Veronica is not correct?
Brown: That's correct
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Veronica uses the intercom system again at 3:05am and tells Brown her legs are cramping badly. Brown say she will contact the nurse
CA: What did you say to Nurse George?
Brown: I can’t recall exact words...it would have been that..she was still cramping
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CA: What did you say to Nurse George?
Brown: I can’t recall exact words...it would have been that..she was still cramping
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CA: Did you ask the nurse to do anything at that point?
Brown: I can’t recall if I did
CA asks how Nurse George responded to the call. Brown states George said she had given Veronica all the meds she could & to let Veronica know she was on suboxone and would get it in the morn
Brown: I can’t recall if I did
CA asks how Nurse George responded to the call. Brown states George said she had given Veronica all the meds she could & to let Veronica know she was on suboxone and would get it in the morn
CA: Nurse George has said in her evidence that she couldn't give more tablets not more medication. Is that a distinction you would agree with?
B: No
CA: Did she propose in any resolution to the complaints that you were passing on from Veronica?
B: No
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B: No
CA: Did she propose in any resolution to the complaints that you were passing on from Veronica?
B: No
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CA: Did you tell Nurse George that other prisoners had buzzed up?
B: Not that I recall, no.
CA: Did you tell Nurse George about how Veronica had sounded?
B: Yes
CA: What did you say?
B: That she was upset and that she was in pain and cramping.
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B: Not that I recall, no.
CA: Did you tell Nurse George about how Veronica had sounded?
B: Yes
CA: What did you say?
B: That she was upset and that she was in pain and cramping.
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CA: Were you asking for anything in particular from the nurse?
Brown: No.
CA: What were you hoping to get out of the phone call?
B: That the nurse might be able to provide me with some assistance with helping Veronica.
CA: Do you think you conveyed that to the nurse?
Brown: Yes.
Brown: No.
CA: What were you hoping to get out of the phone call?
B: That the nurse might be able to provide me with some assistance with helping Veronica.
CA: Do you think you conveyed that to the nurse?
Brown: Yes.
The court is played another audio clip of Brown using the intercom to communicate with Veronica. Brown tells Veronica that she has spoken to the nurse, that there is nothing more she can give Veronica, and that she will be given Suboxone in the morning.
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#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
Brown is asked if this communication with Veronica was an accurate reflection of what Nurse George said to her.
B: Yes
CA: Were you at all concerned with Veronica's wellbeing at this point?
B: It is not usual for someone who is withdrawing to be displaying those symptoms...
B: Yes
CA: Were you at all concerned with Veronica's wellbeing at this point?
B: It is not usual for someone who is withdrawing to be displaying those symptoms...
CA: Do you have the power or capacity for the Nurse to come back?
B: Only if I called a Code Black
CA: You could have called a Code Black?
B: I wouldn't have at that time, no, but I could have... she would have had to be unresponsive... [or] vomiting all over her room
B: Only if I called a Code Black
CA: You could have called a Code Black?
B: I wouldn't have at that time, no, but I could have... she would have had to be unresponsive... [or] vomiting all over her room
CA: In terms of your normal course of action you would only call a Code Black if she was vomiting repeatedly?
B: More so unresponsive
CA: A Code Black is effectively an unresponsive prisoner?
B: Unresponsive, they’re not communicating with us
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B: More so unresponsive
CA: A Code Black is effectively an unresponsive prisoner?
B: Unresponsive, they’re not communicating with us
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CA: You wouldn't call a Code Black as long as you were receiving some communication from the prisoner
B: Correct.
CA: Your understanding is you wouldn't call a Code Black if you could get a response from a prisoner?
B: Yes
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B: Correct.
CA: Your understanding is you wouldn't call a Code Black if you could get a response from a prisoner?
B: Yes
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CA asks the witness what the step below calling a Code Black would be. Brown gives evidence that this would be to call a Senior Prison Officer (who has keys to the cell) and ask them to come back.
CA: Do you agree you should have done this?
Brown: Yes
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CA: Do you agree you should have done this?
Brown: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
The Court is played an audio clip from the intercom on 3:11am on Jan 2. We hear Veronica asking Brown if she can ask the nurse for some salt and water, based on Brown's earlier suggestion. Brown tells Veronica she can't, as operations support are busy doing checks
CA: You couldn’t deliver salt to [Veronica's] cell?
B: Not without operations support
CA: Did you follow up with ops support once the radio indicated they were no longer out doing other tasks?
B: No
CA: No attempt was made to contact the nurse or ops support at that time?
B: No
B: Not without operations support
CA: Did you follow up with ops support once the radio indicated they were no longer out doing other tasks?
B: No
CA: No attempt was made to contact the nurse or ops support at that time?
B: No
The Court is played an audio clip from the intercom at 3:33am. Veronica asks Brown for salt again. Brown responds that she cannot get a hold of the people who could come down and do this & that she doesn't have keys.
CA: It's the case you haven’t tried?
B: No, I haven’t tried.
CA: It's the case you haven’t tried?
B: No, I haven’t tried.
The Court is played CCTV from 3:55am. Brown puts her head out of the post in the Yarra Unit & can be seen looking in the direction of the B Side of the Unit, the side of the Unit Veronica was on.
CA: Are you listening out?
B: I thought I heard something
CA: Are you listening out?
B: I thought I heard something
CA: What could you hear?
B: I wasn't sure.
CA: What was it that you heard from inside the post?
B: I wasn’t sure, it was just a noise.
CA: Once you put your head out the door did you hear anything?
B: No if I did I would have further investigated
B: I wasn't sure.
CA: What was it that you heard from inside the post?
B: I wasn’t sure, it was just a noise.
CA: Once you put your head out the door did you hear anything?
B: No if I did I would have further investigated
CA puts to Brown that Ms McSweeney, in a cell next door to Veronica, said that at around 3:30am she overheard Veronica scream 3 times & after that there was quiet
CA: We are interested if what you heard might have been [what] McSweeney heard?
B: It could have...I don't know
CA: We are interested if what you heard might have been [what] McSweeney heard?
B: It could have...I don't know
Veronica uses the intercom 1 minute after this CCTV. The court is played the audio. On the audio we hear Brown say to Veronica:
"Ms Nelson you need to try and stop because you’re keeping the other prisoners wake. I can’t give you anything else.”
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"Ms Nelson you need to try and stop because you’re keeping the other prisoners wake. I can’t give you anything else.”
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CA: We understand from Kylie Bastin that the Prisoners around Veronica’s cell…they were communicating with Veronica…and trying to soothe her…She said they were supportive of Veronica & trying to offer her some comfort...Had any prisoners complain[ed] about Veronica?
B: No
B: No
CA asks the witness about this audio clip where she tell Veronica, "Ms Nelson you need to try and stop...”
CA: What we heard...is that different to what you might hear of other women withdrawing?
B: I found that intercom call quite distressing. I believe I called medical after
CA: What we heard...is that different to what you might hear of other women withdrawing?
B: I found that intercom call quite distressing. I believe I called medical after
CA: At the time what did that signal to you?
B: That her pain had escalated, that the medication we had provided to her wasn't working, and that we needed to get some more medical assistance to her
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B: That her pain had escalated, that the medication we had provided to her wasn't working, and that we needed to get some more medical assistance to her
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CA: Your options were to contact medical?
B: Yes
CA: To contact a senior officer?
B: Yes, second option
CA: To call a Code Black
B: Yes
CA: Could you have also have called an ambulance?
B: No
CA: You’re not allowed to?
B: No
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
B: Yes
CA: To contact a senior officer?
B: Yes, second option
CA: To call a Code Black
B: Yes
CA: Could you have also have called an ambulance?
B: No
CA: You’re not allowed to?
B: No
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA: Of those 3 options, you call medical again?
B: Yes
CA: Are you able to say what you said to [the nurse]?
B: That Veronica was still cramping. That she was still in a lot of pain, still distressed, could I get some help
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B: Yes
CA: Are you able to say what you said to [the nurse]?
B: That Veronica was still cramping. That she was still in a lot of pain, still distressed, could I get some help
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CA: Can you say how directive you were to the nurse about getting her to come back?
B: No I can’t
CA: Did you ask the nurse to come down and help her?
B: I can't recall
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B: No I can’t
CA: Did you ask the nurse to come down and help her?
B: I can't recall
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CA: I want to ask you to remember back to that conversation as best you can and the specifics of it. Nurse George says she direct you to send [Veronica] to medical
B: Thats not correct
CA: That she directed you to get ops to transfer Veronica to medical?
B: Thats not correct
B: Thats not correct
CA: That she directed you to get ops to transfer Veronica to medical?
B: Thats not correct
CA: What do you say happened in that convo?
B: That the nurse asked me to ask Veronica if she would like to go to medical
CA: That is what the nurse said to you, to ask her if she wanted to go to medical?
B: Whatever the nurse asked me is what I would have relayed to Veronica
B: That the nurse asked me to ask Veronica if she would like to go to medical
CA: That is what the nurse said to you, to ask her if she wanted to go to medical?
B: Whatever the nurse asked me is what I would have relayed to Veronica
CA: Is it your recollection that going to medical was provided as option rather than a directive?
B: Yes
The court is played the final audio clip of Veronica. Brown can be heard saying to her that the nurse cannot give her anything else, but she can be moved to the med unit.
B: Yes
The court is played the final audio clip of Veronica. Brown can be heard saying to her that the nurse cannot give her anything else, but she can be moved to the med unit.
CA: Was there any other option provided by Nurse George?
B: No
CA: Any option for Nurse George to come back to the Yarra Unit?
B: No
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B: No
CA: Any option for Nurse George to come back to the Yarra Unit?
B: No
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
The Coroner asks for the final audio clip to be replayed when Brown asks Veronica if she wants to be taken to the medical unit. Veronica responds no. Brown then asks, "Do you want to stay there? Are you just going to stay in your cell?" Veronica doesn't respond
Coroner: Veronica hasn’t responded?
B: Yes
Coroner: She is unresponsive?
B: Yes
Coroner: You wouldn't call a Code Black?
B: No
Coroner: If you find a prisoner is unresponsive do you accept you have a duty to go and put eyes on them?
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
B: Yes
Coroner: She is unresponsive?
B: Yes
Coroner: You wouldn't call a Code Black?
B: No
Coroner: If you find a prisoner is unresponsive do you accept you have a duty to go and put eyes on them?
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA directs the witness to review the policy around the use of intercom.
CA: An officer must attend the cell immediately if a prisoner is unresponsive?
B: Yes
CA: Policy you were aware of at time?
B: Yes
CA: You failed to do that didn't you?
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA: An officer must attend the cell immediately if a prisoner is unresponsive?
B: Yes
CA: Policy you were aware of at time?
B: Yes
CA: You failed to do that didn't you?
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
The Court is shown CCTV from 4am. Brown is conducting a Unit Patrol
CA: ...the Unit Patrol that occurs immediately after the point Veronica is not responding...was there anything stopping you from going down...and checking on her?
B: She wasn't on obs list, so I didn't go down
CA: ...the Unit Patrol that occurs immediately after the point Veronica is not responding...was there anything stopping you from going down...and checking on her?
B: She wasn't on obs list, so I didn't go down
CA: The policy obliged you to walk down the hall and check that [Veronica] was conscious?
B: Yes
CA: Make sure she was breathing?
B: Yes
CA: Try to engage with her and check she was conscious?
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
B: Yes
CA: Make sure she was breathing?
B: Yes
CA: Try to engage with her and check she was conscious?
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA: ..When we hear those haunting sounds Veronica is making & she is calling “Daddy, Daddy”..was that alarming to you?
B: Yes
CA: That occurred mins before you are here with your torch...at a human level the right thing to do was to check if she was conscious?
B: I wish I had
B: Yes
CA: That occurred mins before you are here with your torch...at a human level the right thing to do was to check if she was conscious?
B: I wish I had
CA: Had you walked down the hall immediately after she had been unresponsive to check whether or not she was conscious, at that point you could have called for an emergency response for her?
B: Yes
CA: Had you called a code black...a lot of people would have come running?
B: Yes
B: Yes
CA: Had you called a code black...a lot of people would have come running?
B: Yes
The Court hears evidence that if a Code Black is called because a woman is found unconscious in her cell, 000 would not be called until the nurse has arrived.
CA: 000 is not called before a medical assessment?
Brown: No
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA: 000 is not called before a medical assessment?
Brown: No
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA: Lets imagine if you had of walked down and seen [Veronica] on the ground.. You would have been immediately aware there was a serious emergency here?
B: Yes
CA: You say at that point it is still your only option to call a Code Black?
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
B: Yes
CA: You say at that point it is still your only option to call a Code Black?
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA: The only means of communication that [Veronica] has if she needs urgent medical assistance is through you?
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA replays audio of final interaction between Brown and Veronica on the intercom
CA: 19 secs in I am told...that there is a thud. After that, [Veronica's] breathing was noisier.
B: I didn't notice
CA: You should have gone to see her, shouldn't you?
B: Yes
CA: 19 secs in I am told...that there is a thud. After that, [Veronica's] breathing was noisier.
B: I didn't notice
CA: You should have gone to see her, shouldn't you?
B: Yes
The court is played CCTV footage of the last time Brown is contacted by Nurse George.
CA: We can see you receiving a phone call from her
B: Yes
CA: Did you report to the nurse at that time that Veronica was sleeping?
B: I'm not sure if it was that call or a bit later
CA: We can see you receiving a phone call from her
B: Yes
CA: Did you report to the nurse at that time that Veronica was sleeping?
B: I'm not sure if it was that call or a bit later
CA: Nurse George said you called her & said Veronica was settled. Was that an assumption?
B: Yes
CA: That was based on your standing at the end of the hall & her no longer calling out?
B: ...Generally if the prisoner has been awake a lot of the night, they eventually tire out
B: Yes
CA: That was based on your standing at the end of the hall & her no longer calling out?
B: ...Generally if the prisoner has been awake a lot of the night, they eventually tire out
Counsel Assisting: When you say that "they eventually tire out", are you referring to drug users who are experiencing withdrawal?
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
The court is shown CCTV of Brown conducting a unit patrol at 5am
CA: Did you hear a shower running in that patrol or at 4am?
B: No
CA: Would you have heard a shower running?
B: Depends on what level they had it on
CA: That was another opportunity to check in on her
B: Yes
CA: Did you hear a shower running in that patrol or at 4am?
B: No
CA: Would you have heard a shower running?
B: Depends on what level they had it on
CA: That was another opportunity to check in on her
B: Yes
Officer Brown's shift finished at 7:40am on Jan 2.
CA: You've just conducted a handover with officers Allen and Reid...Did you tell them about what had happened with Veronica overnight?
B: I can't recall. I know that I spoke to them about her...it may have been a brief convo
CA: You've just conducted a handover with officers Allen and Reid...Did you tell them about what had happened with Veronica overnight?
B: I can't recall. I know that I spoke to them about her...it may have been a brief convo
CA: In terms of the use of Code Black…do you think to wait until a person is unresponsive before a Code Black is called, in the context of a prison & a women being locked in a cell is a bit late for a Code Black?
B: All circumstances are different...that's really hard to answer
B: All circumstances are different...that's really hard to answer
CA: Are you able to suggest to his Honour what changes in policy might have assist you to make better decisions in this circumstance?
B: Better medical care, that the prisoners aren't coming down to us in some of the states that they are...We don't have as much info that we need
B: Better medical care, that the prisoners aren't coming down to us in some of the states that they are...We don't have as much info that we need
CA: You’ve indicated that you're not capable of calling 000? First of all, you're not allowed to?
Brown: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
Brown: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA: If you were to walk down the hall and see that Veronica was laying on the floor of her cell...not responsive, what would you propose might make emergency treatment more effective?
B: If the senior could call an ambulance...but it's very difficult...we're not medically trained
B: If the senior could call an ambulance...but it's very difficult...we're not medically trained
CA: If you were in your home and you [found] a family member...laying on the floor...unresponsive, you wouldn't wait for an assessment would you?
B: No but..I have medical on post...At home, I don't have that...would I have called an ambulance if that was my family member? Yes.
B: No but..I have medical on post...At home, I don't have that...would I have called an ambulance if that was my family member? Yes.
CA: But medical people on post are in, in fact, not on your post, they’re 200 meters away, and you have to persuade them to come?
B: Yes
CA: So if you were at home, you would be able to get an ambulance to your home more quickly than you could to the prison?
B: That’s correct
B: Yes
CA: So if you were at home, you would be able to get an ambulance to your home more quickly than you could to the prison?
B: That’s correct
CA: I understand you to acknowledge that you had certain responsibilities and duties in relation to Veronica?
B: Yes
CA: Once you have called a nurse to help a prisoner, have you handed over your duty as you understand it to the nurse?
B: No
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
B: Yes
CA: Once you have called a nurse to help a prisoner, have you handed over your duty as you understand it to the nurse?
B: No
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA: Is it your understanding that in telling the nurse...that Veronica was calling out for assistance & suffering from cramps...did you believe you were effectively handing over your responsibility for Veronica?
B: Yes and no. I still have a responsibility...she's in my unit
B: Yes and no. I still have a responsibility...she's in my unit
CA: Were you considering [Veronica's] presentation through the lens of someone who is simply withdrawing? Did you make that assumption she was simply withdrawing?
Brown: Yes. The only thing that was different was her hand cramping.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
Brown: Yes. The only thing that was different was her hand cramping.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA: When I was asking you about people who are withdrawing and your considerations of Veronica through that lens, do you have any knowledge as to whether or not drug withdrawal or heroin withdrawal specifically can be fatal?
Brown: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
Brown: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA: Do you think that the facilities and medical service that is available from Yarra is sufficient to treat women who are going through drug withdrawal?
Brown: No
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
Brown: No
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
CA: Finally, there were a no of opportunities in your exchanges with Veronica in which the med care that she needed could have been provided to her?
B: Yes
CA: Her care could have been escalated, so that she was getting the help that she needed
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
B: Yes
CA: Her care could have been escalated, so that she was getting the help that she needed
B: Yes
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson
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