Thread by @dhadjowa

Day 15 of the Coronial Inquest began today at 10.30am, with Yuin woman Aunty Vickie Roach (AV) giving evidence via video link. Today court will sit until just after lunch and Aunt will be the only one taking the stand.

Learn more about Aunty Vickie here:
abc.net.au/news/2020-07-0…

(1/5) Aunt begins by acknowledging country. She then speaks directly to Veronica’s family:
I'm sorry for your loss, sorry isn't enough. I want Veronica's death to not be in vain... the pressure this case will now bring upon the system to change.

(2/5) So the circumstances that allow avoidable tragedies, never happen to other people's families, just as it should never have happened to Veronica.

(3/5) …the fight will continue and Veronica's name and the names of all those who have died in custody before and since, I want you to know that the community will continue to fight, and continue to fight all the stronger and harder because of Veronica’s death.

(4/5)That's not bc anybody wants her to be the poster girl for Aboriginal deaths in custody, that’s not what I mean. I mean Veronica can’t be just reduced to another number, another statistic. Just another death in custody.
I hope the family takes some small comfort in knowing..

(5/5) ...there are a lot of ppl out here who care deeply and who will never stop fighting to prevent what happened to Veronica from happening to any more of our grandmothers, our mothers, our brothers, our sisters, our cousins & our communities. Thank you.

Aunt takes an affirmation and confirms that she submitted a 48 page statement to the court, drawing upon her own experiences and those of many other Aboriginal women that she has known.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

AV states that she first started taking drugs when she was 13.
CA - You say in your statement that you've, you've spent time in prison on remand and sentenced many times since the early 1970s?
AV - Yes, yes, I have.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

AV- If we're talking about first into taken into custody, I was 2 yrs old when I was taken away from my mother, I became a ward of the state. I was taken into custody by the police & charged with being neglected & neglected by way of destitution...

.... & being uncontrollable & exposed to moral danger. It was a device used to remove children from their parents.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

CA: And have you spent time in youth detention?
AV: Yes
CA: And the last time you were held in custody was about 2008?
AV: Yes that’s right.

CA: And you say in your statement that 99% of your crimes you would classify as crimes of survival or disobedience?
AV: Yes, that that would be fair to say. As it is of many women, especially Aboriginal women who find themselves before the courts, is for that very reason...

...Crimes of survival. Or, as you say, disobedience where you haven't obeyed a court order or you know, made an appointment on time or something along those veins and administrative crime as opposed to an actual crime.

CA: Crimes of survival..Can you say what was at the root of that for you?
AV: Um, well, survival is everything. For me it was about having enough money for drugs, as well as being able to keep a roof over my head and not starve.

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

CA: You say that your story is stereotypical of how an Aboriginal woman ends up in prison.
AV: Yes. It starts with out-of-home-care & being removed from their own families...

...And it's like a pipeline, a funnel, the juvenile justice system that governs the lives of Ward's of the state, criminalises us at such a young age, that that the inevitable response as we grow older is prison. Exactly what happened to me when I was in prison at the age of 17.

CA:You've also been a plaintiff in High Court litigation..against the Commonwealth Electoral Commissioner in 2007?..You challenged the legislative provisions which disqualified all sentenced prisoners from voting in federal elections?
AV: Yes, it was found to be unconstitutional

CA: I want to ask you about the experiences of being a woman entering the prison system who has experienced trauma.
AV: It's retraumatising. Every aspect of being incarcerated is traumatising. And the worst part of that is knowing that it's designed to traumatise.

AV - The whole process of strip searching. The dehumanising, demeaning, belittling, ruthless, brutal - not always, but in some cases - ways you are held in that situations..

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

CA:Can you say that explain the process [strip searching] in the prison?
AV:It is very standardised. You have to throw ur hair forward u have to show behind ur ears inside mouth. You have to lift ur breasts & you have to bend over & part ur cheeks for fun in front of the officers

CA: You met Veronica while you were in Dame Phyllis Frost in 2006? You were an Aboriginal peer worker?
AV: Yes
CA: What did that involve?
AV: I used to meet women when they came in the van. I’d usually meet them in medical after they've been through reception and been searched...

We would meet women there .. with coffee a cigarette or shoulder to cry on.. and to explain the process of the prison to them, you know, like what was going to happen next and all that sort of thing, in a much less threatening way than they would have been subject to otherwise..

...We were allowed to take them out into a courtyard & let them have a cigarette & a cup of coffee, which you know, to an hysterical first timer or even somebody who was withdrawing and had been in cells for days was just like instant deescalation of fear and of women being upset

CA: Was there anything about you yourself being Aboriginal that you understood to provide comfort for the Aboriginal women you were assisting?
AV: I was able to link them into other people they may know, & services that they could use within the prison.
#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

CA: You state that you had the impression that Veronica was a “revolving door girl” who was “enmeshed in the system?” - what do you mean by that?
AV: I got the impression, although I don't recall seeing her that often, that she..knew what jail was all about

CA: Can I ask you about the revolving door concept?
AV: When you go to prison, even for a short time, you lose everything. Often your children, your home, where you live. Certainly all your possessions. Any money you might have had - even for short sentences this happens...

...And you get out, so what do you do? You got nothing. Where do you start from?...There’s nothing, there’s no housing. People are released to really unsuitable housing, like boarding houses and caravan parks. It’s a matter of time before you’re back through that door again.

CA: If you are held on remand, when you're released, are there services available for you? For housing?
AV: There very few, very few options. And you know, somebody who's been on the Dept of Housing waiting list for years and years goes right back to the beginning...

...Yeah, you counted as housed while you're in prison, which which I find interesting. You are counted as housed and you're counted as employed as well.

CA: You mention the term “Intersectional stigma”- what do you mean?'
AV: With Aboriginal women, our Aboriginality intersects w our gender, w the justice system, w any type of system really. And the intersections are never beneficial to us.

AV: The intersection between our Aboriginality and gender, for example, kind of makes it double jeopardy for us in court.
CA: What do you mean by that?

AV: Well you're black & you're a woman. You're black for a start, so that's a mark against you. You're a woman...And you're a criminal. Well, that's triple jeopardy, really, you've committed a crime. You're kind of more deviant than other people who may have done the same thing.

1/2

Counsel Assisting asks Aunty Vickie several qs about her lived experience of accessing medical treatment while in prison.

CA: How did you get medical attention?
AV: Your buzzer...That buzzer was your lifeline. But, who’s going to hear it?

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

2/2

Aunty Vickie cont: ..Quite often it does go unheard or it is dismissed. Your concerns are dismissed. And the officer becomes a gatekeeper to whether or not you’re deserving of medical treatment. Or deserving of a call to medical.

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

1/3

CA: In terms of withdrawing from drugs like heroin in custody, what do you think women or men need to make that a safer, more bearable experience?

AV: First of all, they need to be assessed by somebody who actually knows what they're talking about, and know about drugs...

2/3

Aunty Vickie: [Somebody who] is not just looking at it from an ideological viewpoint, and sees drug use as a medical issue, rather than an issue to be criminalized. In a carceral situation it has to be treated as a medical issue, not a moral issue or a criminal issue.

Aunty Vickie: [drug use] has to be treated as a medical issue because there are severe medical conditions that come with withdrawing from heroin… We have to stop criminalising drug issues and placing them back in the medical arena, where they should be, where they belong.

Aunty Vickie is asked about the comment made by COs that Veronica was "lucky" to be in prison

AV: ...You're certainly not lucky. If you're free, there could be a means or a way to relieve your suffering. When you're in prison, there's absolutely no way you can help yourself.

The court has previously heard evidence from Kylie Bastin, formerly incarcerated at DPFC, that on the day that Veronica arrived in the Yarra Unit at DPFC, Kylie gave [Veronica] a cup of cordial because she unwell, and a prison guard tried to stop her from doing that

CA: What I want to ask you about is the notion... about having to be punished, or suffer, because of your addiction?

AV: She could’ve been punished for that. She could’ve been punished for buzzing up...The more you ask for something in there, the less likely you are to get it

CA asks Aunty Vickie if there is an ideology in the prison in relation to drug users who are withdrawing.

AV: Absolutely. You’d be hard pressed to find any screws that have any understanding of drug use

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

CA: You suggest rather than prison, treatment of drug addiction as a health issue is a better alternative than imprisonment.

AV: Absolutely

CA: You say we ought to look to the private system for a successful humane treatment model?

CA: Yes, if there is one, that’s the model.

CA: You say “I believe the carceral system works to silence Aboriginal women and render them invisible”.

AV: Yes, it does.

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

CA: What do you mean by that?

AV: You don’t hear any news coming out of prison do you? We're not visible in the public eye. You don’t see much about us in the media, except that they’ve got to spend more money on building bigger prisons to bring more jobs, but actually won’t

CA: Do you think that the women's prison would be assisted by having a [full-time] Aboriginal Health Worker (AHW)?

AV: Absolutely. As long as it's an independent AHW that wasn't employed by the DoJ or Corrective Services. That it came from the Aboriginal Health Service

CA: In terms of Koori Liaison Workers, you describe them as an invaluable resource for women facing court?

AV: Yes, I've found them to be so when I was going through the system, and many women I talked to felt the same...I'd love to see that program continue

1/2

Aunty Vickie is asked about why in her submission to the Coroner she suggests that there needs to be an independent assessment of medical services in DPFC, and that Correct Care should not be reviewing itself

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

2/2

Aunty Vickie: For the same reason I don’t think police should review themselves. Of course they’re going to come up looking like roses. No, I don’t believe [Correct Care] should be doing that. Personally, I don’t think they should be there at all.

1/2
Aunty Vickie is asked if healthcare in prison would be better if run by govt, rather than a private org

"To be honest, I don't think they would run much different. Except if they were run by govt, I think they would cost govt a lot less. The service would still be inferior"

2/2

Aunty Vickie cont: I think doctors, ordinary doctors should be rostered into the system to do the rounds. Not these companies like Correct Care. In my opinion, they’re not professional. They’re very lackadaisical in their approach to healthcare within the prison.

1/2

CA: In terms of senior management & decision making in prisons, do you think there’s a role for Elders providing advice at that level?

AV: Yes, I do. I think that would be a great idea, provided that they were listened to...

Aunty Vicki cont: People love to get us on boards and things, and hear our recommendations, and say “yay we did the right thing”, like we did with the Royal Commission. And then just sit on it, and do nothing.

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

AV: It would be ideal to have Elders having input into programs & how Aboriginal people, Aboriginal women in particular, were treated. I fear they wouldn't be listened to & the prison would continue to operate as usual. That's the nature of prison, it's designed to protect itself

CA: Aunty Vickie, in terms of cultural competency, are you able to comment at all on the circumstances surrounding Veronica's body being found in the cell?

AV: There was absolutely no cultural competency shown whatsoever

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Stephanie Wallace, Counsel for Percy Lovett, Veronica's partner is now asking questions.

Q: Are you able to say what you would think about Aboriginal Controlled Community Health Officers being able to access the prison?

AV: I think that’s vital. It's extremely important.

1/2

Q: Would you say a doctor or a nurse, from [an ACCHS] would be something you would support being able to access in prison?

AV: Yes, absolutely. I would like to see a lot more interaction with ACCHS in Vic prisons.

2/2

Aunty Vickie cont. on importance of doctors & nurses from Aboriginal Community Controlled Health services in prison:

AV: With the no. of Aboriginal people in jail, there should be somebody there on a daily basis, or at least a weekly basis

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Q: Would you support the idea that someone be at least contactable who is from an Aboriginal Controlled Health Agency outside of the 9-5 hours?

AV: Yes

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Aunty Vickie is asked for her opinion on the most culturally appropriate way to inform a loved one/next of kin when an Aboriginal person dies in custody.

AV: That's a hard one. This is when you need an Aboriginal Liaison Officer..

Q: Mr Lovett was notified by a no. of police officers coming to his house. Would you say that is the appropriate way for someone to be notified about the passing of their loved one?

AV: I would say that was the most inappropriate way of doing so...Thats disgraceful.

Mr Nathwani, Counsel for Aunty Donna, Veronica's mum is now asking qs.

Aunty Vickie is asked about the importance of training for lawyers to work with Aboriginal women. Aunty Vickie gives evidence that this training would be helpful & should come from the Aboriginal community

On Friday Officer Brown described the night Veronica used her buzzer 11 times, as 'another run of the mill night' in the Yarra unit

Q: What do you think could be change[d] to stop these days being seen as 'run of the mill'?

AV: A new way of training screws

Q: Have you listened to Veronica buzzing whoever's in the prison office for those days she was in the prison?

AV: Yes.

Q: Would you describe them as culturally sensitive?

AV: No.

Q: Would you describe them as maintaining her dignity?

AV: No, not at all.

Q: His Honour...is looking at whether there is direct or indirect discrimination within the system. With that in mind, would you say there is direct or indirect discrimination by the police, for example, when they make a decision to arrest an Indigenous person?

AV: Yes, both.

Q: In relation to the prison system, would you say they either directly or indirectly discriminate towards Indigenous people?

AV: It is highly discriminatory towards Aboriginal people.

Q: How about access to health care in the prison system?

AV: Yes

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Q: Are you saying those who are not from Indigenous backgrounds will get medical facilities easier than you and other Indigenous people needing that care?

AV: Yes. Not to any great degree, they don't get much help either. But they are more likely to get help than us.

Aunty Vickie is asked to comment based on her lived experience on the med unit at DPFC

AV: I avoided medical cells at all costs

Q: Why is that?

AV: They are so horrible... Despite the fact that there were screws and medical staff walking around, they just ignore you

Q: Am I right in saying that you formed the conclusion you'd be better off being ignored in your own cell?

AV: Yep

#JusticeForVeronicaNelson

Counsel Assisting is now asking qs.

CA: Is it correct to say that, in your view, the criminalisation of Aboriginal people is systemic?

AV: Yes, it is systemic. It's begun at a very young age. We look up 10 year olds, predominantly 10 year old Aboriginal children...

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