Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good afternoon and welcome back to DAY 2, 15/06/22 the case of James Esses v Metanoia, UKCP & a trainer.

We expect to begin at 2.35pm with Sunitra Thakore of UKCP giving evidence.

For all coverage:
tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/james-esses-…

Abbreviations:
Claimants & counsel:

JE = James Esses

PD - Solicitor - Peter Daly of Doyle Clayton

AR - Barrister - Akua Reindorf, QC of Cloisters

Respondents/counsel

UKCP - UK Council for Psychotherapy

MI - Metanoia Institute
3R - third respondent, an individual running a seminar for UKCP, not yet named

CG = Charlotte Goodman, Counsel for Metanoia

TB = Tom Brown, Counsel for UKCP

RW = Robin Moira White, Counsel for R3

Witnesses & other parties

ST = Sunita Thakore, interim Registrar of UKCP

DD = Dominic Davies - Founder of ‘Pink Therapy’

SB = Simcha Burton - Therapist who made a complaint about JE to Metanoia

AM = Alan McConnon - Former UKCP Registrar

SN = Sarah Niblock - CEO of UKCP

MM = Dr Maya Mukamel - Metanoia Director of Studies

SOJ + Sheila Owen-Jones - CEO of Metanoia

CW = Professor Carrie Weston - Deputy CEO of Metanoia

We begin.

EJ: before we start we received a request for access to the Bundle from Jennifer Smith. I've asked it to be made available minus one doc. Ask for link to be supplied ASAP. Also if R3 wishes to pursue App, it'll need to made tomorrow morning

EJ: now continue with witness evidence. Ask party calling witness to post WS in chatroom
AR: observer is switched on
EJ: please switch off as causes problems. OK witness is ST. I'll ask TB to come off mute and turn cam on

EJ: please can people switch off
RW: I think the easiest
EJ: do not interrupt me when I'm addressing the witness

[EJ takes ST through affirmation]

EJ: start with R2 xounsel
TB: before then just to say ST is in a building where air conditioning been removed, I'd ask she can take her jacket off and she has remote control fan. Can I check all right?
EJ: feel free

ST: bit cooler now
TB: I will ask u to confirm truth of your WS, your address here can u be contacted?
ST: yes
TB: whose signature?
ST: mine
TB: reads contents and true?
ST: yes
TB: no sup questions

EJ: now be asked Qs by AR
AR: I'm going to ask u qs about UKCP business model. Its right that Psychotherapy is not a regulated prof?
ST: not statutory reg no
AR: unlike medical profession with GMC. In respect of GMC, docs don't have a choice whether to register with GMC

AR: docs have to pay a fee to be in GMC
ST: yes
AR: psychotherapists don't have to registered with anyone?
ST: correct
RW: you've got cotton woolly in last min or two
ST: sorry my voice drops
AR: psyche has to SHOW accred standards?
ST: yes that they come under accred framework

AR: and that's what UKCP provides?
ST: yes
AR: we see here 'trainee membership' and above 'non clinical/clinical and various categories. Well come back to different types. Ur one of several?
ST: yes
AR: other big one BACP
ST: yes
A: several others, 10?
AR: 4 or 5

AR: they have a choice and a result ur in competition with BACP for their custom
ST: never really thought of as competitors but some members belong to us and BACP. Don't have to reg with just one

AR: but ur a limited company and fund by membership fees. So want as many members as possible? So fundamentally different from GMC
ST: yes statutory body

AR: they pay u for accreditation?
ST: yes they pay us annually to be a member
AR: Subject themselves to supervision to gain accreditation?
ST: yes undergo procedure carried out by our regulator and assurance team. They go through organisational review

AR: 117 of the Bundle. This is the report form from MI and says a report for HIP college.
ST: yes Human individual Psychotherapy
AR: like an ofsted report? Goes through every aspect, structure etc
ST: yes
AR: fine tooth comb analysis
ST: yes

AR: asks whether training programmes mean HIP standards and ultimately the quality issued by org members are regarded as UKCP quality? Level of oversight?
ST: the quality will be whatever course they're doing leading to hopefully UKCP qualified.
AR: indeed. Page 634

AR: this isnonenof ur marketing docs and says 'UKCP accred is a hallmark of wuality of our quality..." ur referring to quals issued by org members?
ST: yes
AR: trainee is one category?
ST: yes.
AR: page 284 are ur bylaws

AR: we see refers to trainee membership and open to individuals registered and working toward accred, moves to trainee from student when working with clients?
ST: yes
AR: usually by voluntary placement?
ST: yes

AR: look at MI handbook. U can see overview of poss placements and says trainee as counsellor requires substantial exp? Need Clinical hours to gain accred?
ST: yes
AR: addition to that, there's also UKCP requirement to do Mental health familiarisation?
ST: yes

AR: at 244, it sets out training requirements?
ST: yes
AR: a maximum of 120 hours of direct MH exp. So in order to get voluntary placement, trainees have to show following UKCP accredited course?
ST: yes

AR: accept that exp gained by trainees isn't just helpful to them, something for CV?
ST: yes
AR: so have body of work to attract clients and also when still in training, can put exp on CV to set up as unqualified therapist. Can do that after 150 hours?
ST: yes

AR: we see JE signed off as this a few weeks before he was terminated?
ST: yes
AR: so already seeing clients on private practice basis
ST: yes
AR: conditions to be trainee member are set out 641

AR: so the eligibility criteria need to be in final years and working towards hours?
ST: basic eligibility and link to online form
AR: we'll come to that. Page 614. Step by step for trainees
ST: yes

AR: trainee applies directly to UKCP?
ST: yes
AR: conditions they have to agree to and they include MI will make recomendation based on satisfying conditions. Making that rec, you'll agree the training institute working from framework been supervised by UKCP?

ST: yes set high level requirements but lies solely with MI
AR: this is for JE and assuming standard process he went through. This is after submitting. Is this approving it?
ST: yes would check he satisfied conditions
AR: page 466

AR: see another email from UKCP yo JE telling him App has been approved and accepted and has to pay UKCP for membership?
ST: yes
AR: after this his inclusion on trainee directory?
ST: yes
AR: 546 is similar doc

AR: don't know who's this letter is but is put in as example
ST: yes
AR: you've gone very dark
ST: it's as if I don't move around
AR: 546, confirmation someone is a trainee member [reads]

AR: so UKCP is satisfied as well as training org?
ST: yes training org has told us that
AR: you have retained option to not agree
ST: unlikely but
AR: but it's there
ST: yes
AR: UKCP retains option to make independent judgement because App has to go directly to them,

AR: could have different decision
ST: we rely of org members
AR: may in practice but u have option to take different decision
ST: never happened before so don't know able to legally do that. Not had members not had approval of org

AR: u don't issue a card, u require individual to go through process?
ST: yes
AR: so not right to say automatic enrollment?
ST: yes there's a process
AR: it's granted by you?
ST: only with backing org
AR: inclusion in directory a consequence of membership?
ST: yes

AR: this is part of your response to JE claim, grounds for resistance. "All decisions who can be trainees taken by MI, etc". Read again if you want to.

AR: in light of convo just had, it's NOT right is it admission to directory is not by training org?
ST: if you've got through App process you're listed. Automatic is incorrect term..but once gone through app u are then admitted as trainee

AR: last sentence I'm concerned about "inclusion on directory is automatic" not right?
ST: yes App process
AR: don't say this in your WS?
ST: no
AR: it is auto consequence that given directory if a member?
ST: no another App process verified again by org that trainee eligible

ST: we do have full clinical members who've never been trainee, but yes not automatic.
AR: 648 of bundle. Its a MI doc about course JE followed. [Reads: "once graduated can automatically register" that's wrong?
ST: yes term automatic is wrong

ST: should read about eligibility
AR: they repeat it at 654. Under UKCP Registrar [reads] that indicates automatic process?
TB: read the rest of para to witness
AR: read to ourselves.

AR: This gives rise to next q. U said process for full Clinical members similar to trainee...reaccred is something requires form filling?
ST: must get reached every 5 years
AR: so those two process, full clinical, reached, similar to trainee goes through.

AR: Trainee does bulk of work. what UKCP is to sign off something put together by training org. Rely on org?
ST: reached yes
AR: not clear why u accepted UKCP confer membership but not directory
ST: full member registered, trainee on directory

ST: some don't want to stay with org and we have responsibility for their accred
AR: move on to benefits of trainee membership. U say in WS [reads] that statement applies to talrainee and full clinical?

ST: more full Clinical, trainees still in training. Trainee not subject to complaints procedure
AR: 643. This is ur doc about trainee benefits "adding UKCP logo inspire confidence to employers, etc". So that is a benefit?
ST: um hum

AR: added to directory, networking opportunities, special interest groups, etc,
ST: yes
AR: saving money on essentials, discounted books, insurance rates,
EJ: what's the question
AR: establishing benefits

EJ: what's the Q
AR: there is no question that being a member of UKCP is something a trainee member can use to pursue career
ST: yes
AR: can help while trainee and when looking for employment and the wya they demonstrate is by way if directory?
ST: reaching standard an org member

ST: most jobs require registration as full clinical member either with us or BACP. These are benefits. We have applicants who come without being trainee
AR: it's not only a membership which confers benefit its also quality mark?
ST: yes

AR: going to GMC comparative...its not a membership org?
S: statutory regulator
AR: docs aren't a member of it.

AR: in ur WS u talk of regulator. That as far as trainee member concerned, disciplinary function remain with trainer
ST: correct
AR: so with trainees don't take regulatory at all
ST: don't deal with complaints about trainee members

AR: u regulate org members and full clinic for disciplinary action? Trainilee u don't supervise their practice?
ST: don't deal with complaints for trainees
AR: u put in directory and provide membership?
ST: yes

AR: page 573, specifically for JE, this is Facebook exchange in group called Pink Therapy Group. At this time, may 2021, just after JE termination. [Reads "trainee who is transphobic been terminated"]

AR: you see [reads "trainee must be dealt with by training org, etc] so that's consistent with what I put to u that UKCP doesn't exercise power over trainees?
ST: yes
AR: training org do?
ST: yes training orgs

AR: think that's all. Glad to have done that sir with a very focussed witness within the hour
EJ: may be crossexamination from other R's
AR: may I say, mindful RW has to have screen break every hour

EJ: any Qs from R1?
CG: no
EJ: we'll come back at 3.41.
RW: more than one or two questions...forgive me for interrupting earlier, the software focusses on speaking. If u get witness to speak then they'll pop up.
EJ: way to avoid everyone turn off camera. Ask ppl to bear in mind

EJ: aware bundle and WS not posted yet, can it be done ASAP so public can follow
AR: we'll put in after break
TB: my instructing solicitor has had to leave because of personal emergency, could claimants counsel do that
EJ: take ten mins. Back 3.45

We are back.
EJ: can't see any parties
AR: I'm here
EJ: TB? Can u say something? Noticing you're disconnecting
RW: may need to be unmuted
EJ : he's not muted

Rw: TB is calling me "Tom how can we help, we're in hearing wondering where u are... is it worth logging back out in again? I'll stay on the line with you." Judge no doubt u heard that.
EJ: yes

RW: (on phone) "I think AR was going to raise another matter with you. In break we had a new joiner and clear railstrike, think they've muted now"
EJ: yes. Any luck Tom?
RW: "can you see hearing?" What TB is saying can see hearing but no sound or vision.

EJ: log in and out
RW: he's done that twice
EJ: then reset computer
Clerk: come out of browser
EJ: must remind not to use chatroom for purposes other set by me.

EJ: tech difficulty
RW: (on phone) will say that. He's going to restart computer will take 4 or 5 minutes
EJ: OK I'll turn off til 4pm. Same warning to witness. Will turn off. Ask reps to do the same.

We are back.
EJ: Ar are u there?
AR: yes
RW: I have TB on phone and saying same difficulty and asks if clerk can lock room and ask if clerk admit him
Clerk: I have locked room
RW: (on phone) "room is locked if u want to try"

EJ: observers reminded cameras off and on mute
RW: have had xonvo with TB and I have 20 mins of questions and bit if cross from TB, can do tomorrow
EJ: TB can u hear?
TB: can't see
EJ: may take Time to take up
TB: never encountered issue before
EJ: go to cross by RW

RW: can u here me ST?
ST: yes
RW: in your WS, you've been acting as registra with UKCP
ST: yes
RW: know systems relating to trainees?
ST: yes
RW: and ppl coming into the org and if u needed to remove that'd be ur responsibility?
ST: yes

RW: my client has to deal with whether she was an agent of UKCP?
ST: yes
RW: agent has legal definition evolved over years? Did u know?
ST: no
RW: I'm going to make a sub as whether R3 was in pos to affect UKCP.

RW: at relevant time she had 2 functions, 1 providing training, u have range of providers?
ST: yes
RW: many in fact?
ST: since pandemic not as many as we'd like
RW: able to give AR a ballpark figure or reg places...a number for training orgs?
ST: no

RW: R3 was chair of one of the colleges. Colleges are subdivisions?
ST: consider colleges as modality, we have different colleges, we have psychoanalyst, humanistic and integrative, existential. About 10 colleges.
RW: let's deal with R3 as training deliverer

RW: I've split up as maintenance and removal. As training provider does she have say?
ST: no
(Missed)
RW: if registrant attends training and then goes through whatever process to have CPD registered can person providing training influence accreditation
ST: no

RW: can training provider have input to removal process.
ST: no
RW: would they ever be involved in that process?
ST: no
RW: R3 position as a chair of Oragnisational members?
ST: yes

RW: you've gone dark can u wave paper again.
RW: I've asked u Qs about position she was jn with ppl attending course. At relevant time R3 was also chair of a college
ST: yes
RW: as chair can she affect admission to UKCP?
ST: no for org members

RW: whether they progress their membership can a chair influence?
ST: no
RW: input to removal?
ST: unless we received a complaint. If involving registrant come under UKCP, if trainee dealt with by trainee org
RW: JE dealt with by MI and not to do with R3

RW: understand when JE complaint received there was consideration as to whether R3 came within UKCP insurance. U were part if convo?
ST: yes
RW: no q I'm asking is a request to tell us about legal advice. Is it right outcome R3 could not be supported by UKCP insurance?

ST: correct
RW: due to positions she held?
ST: yes
RW: those are my questions.
EJ: end of cross exam. I'll ask a few questions. First, u've been asked about para 4, date u joined R2 a d current position. Tell me when he joined what job were u in 2008?
ST: prof conduct officer

ST: which was to deal with complaints, analogy would be case manager and Prof standards manager. EJ: next role? ST: became complaints conduct manager Oct 2018 RJ: this the role u mention in WS ST: yes

EJ: asked about ballpark figure about course and u were unable. How many ppl do u rely on to provide courses?
ST: wouldn't know answer, that would be corporation and events team
EJ: is there a list u call for training sessions. How does it work?
ST: don't know answer sorry

EJ: who appoints trainers?
ST: communications team
EJ: no further qs. Any from TB?
TB: a few. 546, AR put to you and reference about good standing with UKCP that system set up so UKCP had option to make different decisions from training org.

TB: Ur answer was u wouldn't be able to do that. Other than App form, recommendations, what other does UKCp have to make devisoon
ST: on basis of org member telling us someone not in good standing. Genuinely deemed to be good standing if member.

TB: can UKCP take own decision?
ST: not sure they can...signposted to training org
TB: structurally any circumstances u could disagree with org member?
ST: not aware of no
TB: look at 618, requirements

TB: take u to terms and conditions. My Q about them, what if anything beyond those provisions is taken into account for trainee membership? [Reads requirements]

EJ: very long statement what's the question
TB: I explained Q before I went through it and was going to repeat, what beyond provisions is taken into account?
ST: nothing else

TB: last Q arose from AR (train noise), sounds like a train
EJ: make sure on mute. Just put ur pupil on mute too as he wasn't on mute
TB: AR put to u since UKCP doesn't regulate trainees it couldn't be a regulator (train noise again)

EJ: unsatisfactory and I'm going to repeat my request to participants and I'll remove if not
(TB now on mute)
TB: sorry I'd muted. If u don't regulate trainees why do u not consider UKCP not to be trade org?

ST: we are a prof and regulator for those who may have been trainees. To say we don't regulate trainees, we do set standards and minimal requirements but noone required to be trainee or UKCP member. Never considered us as trade org.

ST: Prof membership body and deal wconcerns with registrants who don't meet ethical code. Do set standards as to what they should be looking for and policies they should have in place
TB: all Qs
EJ: I'll release ST. Free to discuss case.

EJ: we have 2nd witness, JEwho will be giving evidence tomorrow 10am
RW: one matter. U mention App for the Bundle. We did go through loop of learning in another case recently, shall we provide
EJ: you'll need to apply
RW: I'm not applying, there's been request to look at bundle

RW: judge came up with form of undertaking
EJ: when I deal with apps from journos there's a form of working we provide which I did this morning. That's the usual. Mustn't be copied or published in any circumstances.

RW: we went through a loop before
EJ: seen people asking for bundle. R2 was preparing bundle to make available to public
TB: we did redactions. Was going to be JE counsel to post.

EJ: request for main bundle too
AR: we haven't agreed to bundle yet
EJ: we'll need the bundle with docs referred to
RW: happy to host counsel meeting to explore solutions
AR: more fruitful for solicitors to communicate

EJ: that's the end of today's hearing and we'll reconvene tomorrow at 10am.

[Session ends]

@threadreaderapp please unroll