Thread by @mbmpolicy

A reminder that the EHRCJ committee is holding an additional meeting this afternoon to discuss gender recognition reform in Ireland. parliament.scot/chamber-and-co….

The session should be available to watch live and on catch-up here. scottishparliament.tv

As we observe in Part 4 here, the post-legislative scrutiny review in Ireland explicitly ruled out of scope impacts on women, e.g. in prison (note: some evidence to the committee yesterday suggested the review had identified there were no problems). murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/06/20/gen…

We're not sure if there is a way to access the live link from Ireland, but the full Official Report should be available here in 2-3 working days. parliament.scot/chamber-and-co…

Delayed tweet thread based on this afternoon's oral evidence on the Gender Recognition Reform Bill from Senator Regina Doherty, Leader, Seanad Éireann. finegael.ie/our-people/sen…

Opening statement from the Senator. "We are a number of years ahead of you in Ireland."

Signed into law in July 2015. Amended other Acts to bring into line with 2015 GRA. Act "going well for a number of years". Small review group brought together in 2017. Act did not cover people who are non binary and those under age of 18.

Wanted to extend conversation further to under 16 year olds.

Review group "incredibly professional". Review lasted longer than expected. Main findings was legislation as existed around 16 and 17 year olds was "far too onerous".

Wanted to simply find "a very clear but skillful path" for 16 and 17 year olds (to change legal gender). Importantly, simple revocation process for those "navigating the journey of sexual liberation".

At end of 2019, put forward recommendations to enact those recommendations. Unfortunately, I lost my seat in the general election of January 2020. Review has sat on the desk since then.

Act is working "incredibly well...it's working seamlessly". "It was working very unassumedly until very very recently. We never had any of the kind of debate, divisive debate that we have seen in the UK, America and Canada."

"We are for some reason experiencing that divisive debate...starting now. There is a very small but growing campaign seeking for us to repeal the GRA. I fear we might have a summer of discontent ahead of us."

Karen Adam asks what was the context of introducing the bill in the first place and what was the case for it and was there any opposition to it.

RD: "There had been a small debate. There still was an absolute need....citizens both young and indeed old living a lie in so far as the state did not recognise the true people that they were living the lives of."

RD: "It was such a small thing in law to do. To allow people to live the life as the gender that they feel that they are."

RD: "[In Ireland] We have a lot of centrist politicians, we do have politicians on the left and we have a very small grouping of what we would call politicians to the right of centre. Some of those conservative views did express change wasn't necessary."

RD: "They talked a lot about a theory of gender identity whereas in actual fact it is a reality for the people who are living the experience. The debate we had was very respectful which is not something that I've seen in other jurisdictions."

RD: "We've a growing debate at the moment in Ireland and it's not respectful."

RD: "I sometimes look back when we went through that process of enacting the legislation and then when I did the review it really felt like it went under the radar."

RD: "What we were doing...had nothing to do with the provision of medical services."

RD: "This simply was to give legal recognition, not to help assist in getting up the queue of the medical interventions... You still have to do all of the things that you would have had to do beforehand and that still is a dismay to lots of us in this country."

RD: "The thought that an adult...would require a medical doctor to say that you are what you are when you know in your heart and soul and you've lived the life and are living the life you want to live. We didn't feel that they need to have anything to do with the doctor."

Pam Duncan Glancy asks Senator Doherty how she as a legislator navigated, mentioning concerns about single sex spaces for women. How has Irish legislation interacted with women's rights and has there been any abuse from bad faith actors.

RD: "You might find this very hard to believe given the debate that had previously happened in Scotland...we didn't have that in 2015. All of the advocacy bodies...were all there...living breathing and praying that this got through."

RD: refers to piece of employment law currently under consideration and the proposal to change the Maternity Act. Proposing to change language to "pregnant people".

RD: "Debate in Ireland around safe spaces for women...There is a real fear that's growing because a woman might be fearful of her safety from a trans man or a trans woman who might invade a space in Zara when I'm trying on a new frock."

RD: "The notion that women now have to fear a man dressing up as a woman...so he can threaten me in a dressing room...to me, it's fanciful when you recognise that in the Irish state women have issues due to male violence."

RD: "I think we've a debate...because we have a number of prisoners in Limerick prison...who are in a female prison...who identified as female after they have arrested and charged."

RD: "To my mind first of all the law is that they can change their gender if that's what they want to do."

RD: "If you think that person is a risk to the other prisoners you'd expect the authorities to react."

RD: "We are trying to reduce a very very small argument or an example that happens to impact 0000.00% of society nearly, to conflate it with an argument that women have to be fearful of male violence."

RD: "This never came up in the first iteration of the law or in the review of the legislation in 2019. I don't believe women need to feel diminished in our gender identity just because there are other genders."

RD: "I don't believe my womanhood, my femininity, my role in society as a mother, I don't think any of those things are diminished by the fact that there are trans women, trans men, non binary, intersex."

RD: "The fact that generations ago there were two genders, two sexes...there still are two sexes but today I think we probably have about nine genders."

RD: "It doesn't protect them by saying that a trans female can't access the same spaces as other women."

PDG asks about impact of legislation on data collection in particular data on the representation of women.

RD: "It probably had very little impact. The data that we collect from the GRO...is a really small number of people."

RD: "We were historically very Catholic and very very conservative for a few years. It was a kind of euphoria of a recognition that we finally actually managed to get our act together and to be normal human beings and just accept people."

RD: "There was all of that love feeling going around the country. So there was very very little negativity. Yeah, there was the people who didn't like it but even their tones were framed in a respectful way."

RD: "No, there isn't really an awful lot [of data]."

PDG asks if move to self-ID has affected data about women.

RD: "The only change - and this is kind of embarrassing - to data collection that we did was that this year we had a census. For the first time ever you were allowed to be either male, female or neither of the above."

RD: "There was a whole debate in Ireland...why can't you just ask the questions because there is nine genders. Just put the nine genders in. Stop trying to be afraid of the fact that there are other genders."

RD: "Anyway it was too late. And it was...a small debate. It was an irksome thing given that we have recognised gender...just bloody well use them. Stop being afraid to not use something that is legally recognised."

Rachael Hamilton asks about comments in opening statement about attempts to repeal the Act.

RD: "Because we are proposing to change employment legislation...terminology of pregnant women...to change it to pregnant people."

RD: "There have been a number of organisations that have developed in the last number of weeks, a number of women have come together around the idea that first of all you won't disrespect women and you won't diminish my role in society by bunching me into pregnant people."

RD: "The whole debate around 'people can't get pregnant, only women can get pregnant'. That's the narrative that has developed over the last number of weeks."

RD: "The response to date so far is that first of all we are not diminishing the role of women in society. What we're doing is recognising that there are other genders in society who can absolutely get pregnant."

RD: "We have non binary people presenting having babies, they are excluded from the legislation of state support. Pregnant people terminology decided by attorney general."

Rachael Hamilton asks how different terms used in data collection impact on policy development, e.g. health and criminal justice.

RD: "I think it impacts hugely... I believe that if you don't recognise and capture in data sets the identities of the people that we are taking about, then you are certainly not going to devise good policy and services for those people."

RD: "It's a real shame that we didn't capture it in this year's census...The next time it'll include all of the genders."

RH asks about reporting process for GRA. Asks if that is something that is laid every year and whether there were things you could have done better. Asks about arrangements for prisons.

RH asks if they did any analysis to work out impact of males with GRCs being housed in female prisons.

RD: "What we did do at the time was look at other jurisdictions....and the lived experience in that country....There wasn't an awful lot to look at but we did do some work."

RD: "The prison thing, the shared dressing room spaces and the school toilets were the three things that came up in the jurisdictions that we looked at. But again the incidences were so minute."

RD: "If you balance it against the fear of not doing it because somebody might declare themselves as a female..."

RD: "We have two people currently in Limerick prison who were born genetically male who self identified as female and they are now in female confinement in a women's only prison."

RD: "The argument is that they only did what they are doing to get access to women...If any prison warden feels there is a potential risk...it's up to them to make sure that all of his patrons are safe."

RD: "I don't know the reasons behind the journey that the two people who are in the prison in Limerick have taken...I do know there is a real suspicion that they're not really the gender that they have assigned themselves...but they only did what did to get into a female prison."

Maggie Chapman asking if any trans women or men who have not been able to access health care due to changing health records.

RD: notes that there is a long waiting list for medical treatment. "We have been using the NHS for the last number of years. Sometimes children under the age of the 18."

MC says one question put to committee is how we can ensure trans men can still access cervical screening and trans women for prostate tests. Are there processes we can learn from you?

RD: "Again, I'm embarrassed to say that we don't have that data."

RD: "What we've captured is that you are male, female or other, which is absolutely worthless to anybody."

MC asking about criminal offence and relationship to revoking GRC.

RD: "Not sure I'd be able to answer that question. Only database held by GRO...isn't shared with anybody. It doesn't tell you anything other than the numbers and that the Act is actually working. In hindsight, is a real shame."

RD: "Coming from a country that doesn't even have a register for domestic violence, in Ireland, we've a long way to go with a lot of our data."

RD: "Review group recommended...promoting the use of acceptance of correct pronouns. It's something that my children take for absolute granted. My youngest is 15, she corrects me."

RD: "All of our legislation...only refers to men and women...I asked for all of our departments to go away and show me what you can change."

Fulton Macgregor asking about living in the acquired gender. Was there any discussion around time periods in GRA in Ireland?

RD: "The evidence was that nobody woke up on a Tuesday and decided that they were going to change their gender."

RD: "If somebody came to the state over the age of 18...it wasn't for us to make sure that they had to dance a particular dance before they would get the legal entitlement."

RD: "Our advocacy groups...have just launched an amalgamated campaign for transgender equality in the last number of weeks because of the rise of discourse in Ireland around some of the fears that you would have expected to be raised in 2015."

RD: "For those under the age of 18 it simply hasn't worked. Very cumbersome."

FM asking about ordinary residence requirement in draft Scottish bill. Has that been a concern given shared border?

RD: "Legislation can only change Irish certificates."

Pam Gosal asking about data collection on basis of gender as opposed to sex and potential impact on equality measures such as gender pay gap.

RD: "Embarrassingly so none of these things were identified as issues around the time of the enactment of the legislation. There is no data collection other than in the GRO."

RD: "We're changing the terminology to reflect the reality that there are more than one gender."

RD: "We don't know how many trans women there are, trans men there are, how many non binary people there are, how many intersex people - we haven't collected that data...a glaring gap in policy formation."

RD: "Learn by our mistakes. I'm not even sure we realised it was a mistake until you've told me here today."

Pam Gosal asking about women of faith. How did they go about addressing that, for religion, women or faith accessing services, single sex spaces?

RD: "We had very little acrimony. We did have concerns that were expressed but they were actually expressed in relatively neutered tones."

RD: "And yes we still have some very conservative people. We have an enormous faith based particularly Catholic faith and growing Muslim faith base in Ireland. And that would have very distinct and opposing views to this."

RD: "The way we tried to handle it at the time...first of all, every human being deserves to live with dignity and for me...I was born female, I am now an adult female woman, I have four beautiful children...I happen to be very happy in my own boots."

RD: "For faith based people, the fact that the legislation changed doesn't change their faith or belief. They don't ever have to change their faith....but as a nation...we have to be here to serve all of our people."

RD: "There is no threat to my gender identity from realising that there are other genders."

RD: "Maybe I am in a privileged position of being a woman as opposed to be a minority gender. If we are to recognise that there currently now seven genders or even nine...the seven we legally recognise in Ireland."

RD: "Each person has to be respected. And the person who has religious beliefs has the right to be treated by a woman. There is nothing wrong with asking to be treated by a female woman doctor."

RD: "There distinctly is something different between a woman and a trans woman."

RD: "We're probably not as progressive as Scotland is because you can't get married, drink, get a driver's licence...until you're 18. So it was easy for us to keep the cut off point."

RD: "I've four children. They know absolutely everything and yet we all know that when we stop being 16 and 17 we realise just how little we did really know. It's a very precious space in a person's life."

RD: "An adult Irish person is an adult Irish person and they get the full extent of the law as an independent adult themselves."

You can watch the session on this link: scottishparliament.tv/meeting/equali…

@threadreaderapp unroll