Good morning #deaf it's day three of the @NLESDCA vs @kimagreening human rights trial over Carter's education. Hope @NL_Assoc_Deaf and @1940CADASC are paying attention!
On the docket today is quite a list. 5 people including former deputy minister of education @GovNL
On the docket today is quite a list. 5 people including former deputy minister of education @GovNL
@NLhumanrights informed me there will be live captioning today. It's my understanding that it's an individual typing out the transcript.
Bear in mind it's a deaf person tweeting live. Info may be missed or misunderstood. I'll do my best.
Good luck
Bear in mind it's a deaf person tweeting live. Info may be missed or misunderstood. I'll do my best.
Good luck
Back at 7.30 am eastern. 9 am newfoundland. Why does newfoundland have to do it halfway?
Breakfast is important.
This hearing is more important.
This hearing is more important.
Docket
IT 2017, teacher DHH 2017-2019
Teacher of the deaf 2019/20
Teacher DHH 21/22
Former principal east point 20-22
Former deputy of education
IT 2017, teacher DHH 2017-2019
Teacher of the deaf 2019/20
Teacher DHH 21/22
Former principal east point 20-22
Former deputy of education
Current one is Sheila Macdonald. scheduled for an hour. Teacher of the Deaf from 2017-2019
@kimagreening looks much more refreshed.
Reading Shelia affidavit. She points out that the educational plan post school closure was not ideal. Lawyer wants this expanded.
Reading Shelia affidavit. She points out that the educational plan post school closure was not ideal. Lawyer wants this expanded.
Sheila. For students especially younger children there were no real services. Without that they can't develop vocabulary and language and thus cannot succeed in life.
Lawyer. How is Carter different from hearing students?
Sheila. If deaf students can't use their implant/hearing aid then they can't pick up language. 5 year Olds should have 10,000 words. They get it from socializing. Radio.
That's not the case with a deaf child.
Sheila. If deaf students can't use their implant/hearing aid then they can't pick up language. 5 year Olds should have 10,000 words. They get it from socializing. Radio.
That's not the case with a deaf child.
Sheila. You need to intervene earlier with a deaf child.
Lawyer. So the deaf school provided an environment where kids could pick up language
Sheila. Yes. Nearly everyone signed. Most staff were deaf. So more exposure outside the classroom
Lawyer. So the deaf school provided an environment where kids could pick up language
Sheila. Yes. Nearly everyone signed. Most staff were deaf. So more exposure outside the classroom
Lawyer. What's the impact of a child like carter not getting this exposure
Sheila. *laughs* because he's not getting the exposure. It's impossible!
Panel wants to keep focused on @NLESDCA
Sheila. *laughs* because he's not getting the exposure. It's impossible!
Panel wants to keep focused on @NLESDCA
Lawyer. Wanted to use that as a reference point. And then asks about exposure for Carter in kindergarten to grade 3.
Sheila. No exposure
Lawyer. did you find your superior had any qualifications?
Sheila. I don't know
Lawyer. Did they grasp it?
Sheila. I don't think so
Sheila. No exposure
Lawyer. did you find your superior had any qualifications?
Sheila. I don't know
Lawyer. Did they grasp it?
Sheila. I don't think so
Sheila. (Talking about a letter of concern in 2017) I don't think they grasped our concerns
Lawyer. Did you get an explanation?
S. No
L. Did you raise concerns?
S. Yes
L. Felt frustrated?
S. Yes
Lawyer. Did you get an explanation?
S. No
L. Did you raise concerns?
S. Yes
L. Felt frustrated?
S. Yes
Lawyer. Do you think their lack of background in deaf education had an impact?
Sheila. I guess so. I don't know who they reported to. It would had helped in my opinion.
Sheila. I guess so. I don't know who they reported to. It would had helped in my opinion.
Talking about a report in 2019. Needs of deaf children weren't being met by the deaf itinerant teachers due caseload.
Lawyer wants the link between closure of the school and lack of planning and the impact on the deaf students.
Lawyer wants the link between closure of the school and lack of planning and the impact on the deaf students.
Sheila. When the school closed it wasn't all at once. They blocked enrollment. The older kids had language base. They could use asl read and write. They needed interpreters. They didn't want to use interpreters. They want deaf teachers.
Sheila. But these older students could finish high school. After the school closed there didn't seem to be any programs for asl acquisition.
Lawyer. So there wasn't anything for new students to acquire asl
S. Yes. They had to manage
L. Did they manage?
S. ... I'm not sure.
Lawyer. So there wasn't anything for new students to acquire asl
S. Yes. They had to manage
L. Did they manage?
S. ... I'm not sure.
Sheila threw up her hands when she was asked if the kids were managing. Clearly frustrated.
Lawyer. Why is it important to get deaf children together?
S. Deaf kids needed to see each other and socialize. It's not normal to interact through an adult
Lawyer. Why is it important to get deaf children together?
S. Deaf kids needed to see each other and socialize. It's not normal to interact through an adult
Lawyer. Through an adult?
Sheila. *laughs* well the interpreter!
Sheila. *laughs* well the interpreter!
Lawyer ask what socialization limits
Sheila. Kids can talk after school. Go home. Set up games. Etc. Carter cannot partake in that.
Sheila. Kids can talk after school. Go home. Set up games. Etc. Carter cannot partake in that.
Lawyer. How often were you with Carter?
Sheila. All day. Except for breaks and prep period.
L. What was your role?
S. I would try to keep him caught up. I'd explain what would happen after the teacher was done. Expand in vocabulary.
Sheila. All day. Except for breaks and prep period.
L. What was your role?
S. I would try to keep him caught up. I'd explain what would happen after the teacher was done. Expand in vocabulary.
Lawyer. So when you're not there he doesn't learn asl. Doesn't get the lesson in asl?
Sheila. No
@NLhumanrights love the captioning it is awesome!!!!
Sheila. No
@NLhumanrights love the captioning it is awesome!!!!
Now talking apsea. This is the Atlantic organization for helping children with disabilities in the Atlantic provinces.
Lawyer going over reports with Sheila.
Executive summary. Carter can't use voice. Primary uses asl. Can communicate in asl.
Lawyer going over reports with Sheila.
Executive summary. Carter can't use voice. Primary uses asl. Can communicate in asl.
Report indicates Carter could express and understands asl. Oral communications is pointless.
Sheila worked at the Deaf school since 1987. She's retired now.
Sheila worked at the Deaf school since 1987. She's retired now.
Lawyer. Now on comprehending skills. Below average. Need consistent asl exposure. Why?
S. Because he needs to develop language. In bits and pieces. It is not effective. *laughs* if you don't use language you will lose it!
Lawyer. Was it difficult to communicate the curriculum?
S. Because he needs to develop language. In bits and pieces. It is not effective. *laughs* if you don't use language you will lose it!
Lawyer. Was it difficult to communicate the curriculum?
S. Yes. Carter had an fm to listen to the teacher. I'd let him listen but it didn't work. I'd listen then explain to him. Kids did schoolwork while I explain.
L. Asl is near simultaneous. But the setup for you meant you had to translate and produce your own version of the lesson? Why not an interpreter?
S. Because his language was not development.
L. So he lagged behind class by minutes?
S. Yes
S. Because his language was not development.
L. So he lagged behind class by minutes?
S. Yes
L. Why was there a problem in grade 2?
S. G1 I had my own room. Small. Quiet. It worked. I could go there when needed.
L. Why was that beneficial?
S. I could do it 1 on 1 and work on his language.
L. So you had to remove him from a hearing class to teach?
S. Yes
S. G1 I had my own room. Small. Quiet. It worked. I could go there when needed.
L. Why was that beneficial?
S. I could do it 1 on 1 and work on his language.
L. So you had to remove him from a hearing class to teach?
S. Yes
L. Let's talk grade 2
S. Well. That room was used by students with autism to calm down. One specific child had triggering words that would make him upset.
L. So you needed a quiet non chaotic room to work with Carter. Visually.
S. Yes.
S. Well. That room was used by students with autism to calm down. One specific child had triggering words that would make him upset.
L. So you needed a quiet non chaotic room to work with Carter. Visually.
S. Yes.
L. So you didn't have a room that year that was asl and deaf friendly.
S. Yes
L. Did you feel that was limiting?
S. Yes. It was distracting. He can hear a bit through his CI. So when the others watched movies he'd hear it.
L. So he would hear screaming?
S. Yes
L. Did you feel that was limiting?
S. Yes. It was distracting. He can hear a bit through his CI. So when the others watched movies he'd hear it.
L. So he would hear screaming?
S. Yes. He would get startled.
L. Was there other spaces?
S. No. There was no space
L. Was there other spaces?
S. No. There was no space
Sheila testimony is pretty damning as it expresses the frustrations the teachers had with the lack of resources. She's clear
Talking about a report that Sheila wrote. Sheila confirms she probably wrote this. February 2019.
S. This is new. The school closed so the district didn't have experience. There were no subs that had asl. So no resources or experience (summary of what she said. Don't quote me)
S. This is new. The school closed so the district didn't have experience. There were no subs that had asl. So no resources or experience (summary of what she said. Don't quote me)
L. You're subbing now and you're retired?
S. There's nothing for Deaf kids. There may be another asl teacher but...
L. Are you and Tammy Carter peers?
S. No. I'd prefer peers for him close in age.
L. You said he doesn't have a natural way to learn language
S. There's nothing for Deaf kids. There may be another asl teacher but...
L. Are you and Tammy Carter peers?
S. No. I'd prefer peers for him close in age.
L. You said he doesn't have a natural way to learn language
S. Well yes... there's nobody around. Just 2 adults. No kids.
L. Did you ask for resources?
S. I didn't get the impression I would get them. He had all the resources for speech. It's pointless because he doesn't have the foundation to keep going and develop language.
L. Did you ask for resources?
S. I didn't get the impression I would get them. He had all the resources for speech. It's pointless because he doesn't have the foundation to keep going and develop language.
S. With kids we mainstreamed pre deaf school closure we gave them the skills they could use to 'function'. (Sighs) this model... it's one child. One adult one child. This situation... (sighs) it doesn't work
Aside. Sheila MacDonald just demolished the inclusion model.
Lawyer. Was there an approved asl curriculum?
S. I don't think so.
L. There wasn't. Does that make sense?
S. No. To teach kids in grade one we have the assumption these kids have a foundation. In a hearing class it's difficult to keep up. In grade 1. Kids watch video.
S. I don't think so.
L. There wasn't. Does that make sense?
S. No. To teach kids in grade one we have the assumption these kids have a foundation. In a hearing class it's difficult to keep up. In grade 1. Kids watch video.
Water cycle. Precipitation. Condensation. There's no sign. You have to sign rain and finger spell the new words and examine that. Hearing kids hear those words on the radio. Carter? No. That took another of extra work. (Sigh of frustration)
Lawyer asked Sheila how she felt.
S. Discouraged.
S. Discouraged.
Now onto online. Covid
S. Teacher was willing to learn. Yes asl proficiency was low. But willing to learn.
L. Lots of teachers interested in updating education but district never offered. You were informal interpreter.
S. I was not the interpreter. But a support
S. Teacher was willing to learn. Yes asl proficiency was low. But willing to learn.
L. Lots of teachers interested in updating education but district never offered. You were informal interpreter.
S. I was not the interpreter. But a support
L. I know you weren't acting as interpreter but practically you were.
S. (Hesitant) more of explaining it afterwards. Carter and 2 others.
L. Want to clarify something. A misunderstanding? It's not true. @kimagreening said this was harmful for her to act as an assistant?
S. (Hesitant) more of explaining it afterwards. Carter and 2 others.
L. Want to clarify something. A misunderstanding? It's not true. @kimagreening said this was harmful for her to act as an assistant?
S. I'm not sure. Let's read it.
L. Reading.... I understand that @kimagreening suggested support is inappropriate and harmful. This was aimed at another person. Why did you think that was you? Did the district tell you that?
S. I'm confused.
Lawyers are clarifying
L. Reading.... I understand that @kimagreening suggested support is inappropriate and harmful. This was aimed at another person. Why did you think that was you? Did the district tell you that?
S. I'm confused.
Lawyers are clarifying
L. Just wanted to make sure you weren't told that by the district regarding Kim's comment. So someone prepared a list of questions? BRB. Talking to clients
L. One small point. There seems to be a bit of confusion with witnesses about Tammy starting the last 3 weeks of grade 2. You two weren't there at the same time?
S. Correct.
Moving to district lawyer. This is the first question he has asked of staff
S. Correct.
Moving to district lawyer. This is the first question he has asked of staff
DL. Was there predescribed asl curriculum?
S. Not as far as I know?
Dl. Apsea report. (Looking for specific summary)
Dl. What's audio with sign language. Expand.
S. He can use his hearing and sign. But he can't understand audio. He can't understand speech
Dl. Okay thank you.
S. Not as far as I know?
Dl. Apsea report. (Looking for specific summary)
Dl. What's audio with sign language. Expand.
S. He can use his hearing and sign. But he can't understand audio. He can't understand speech
Dl. Okay thank you.
Dl wanted to see when Tammy was there. Timeliness clarification.
Adjudicator. Referred as AJ.
Aj. Can you explain to me what you observe about Carter ability to use sound to learn material?
S. He could use sound to supplement sign language but...
Adjudicator. Referred as AJ.
Aj. Can you explain to me what you observe about Carter ability to use sound to learn material?
S. He could use sound to supplement sign language but...
S. Could not use audio only. I don't think he could understand sentence. We used total communication in deaf school. Now we've shifted to asl.
Aj. Trying to understand the difference pre and post school closure.
Aj. Trying to understand the difference pre and post school closure.
S. Before. Preschool would have teachers assigned. Meet parents. Packages. Activities. VHS tapes. Enough funding to visit parents and develop a plan.
Aj. You weren't that teacher?
S. No.
Aj. Were those teachers providing direct instructions?
Aj. You weren't that teacher?
S. No.
Aj. Were those teachers providing direct instructions?
S. Not 100 sure. But they worked with the parents to work with kids.
Aj. So after the closure the plan disappeared?
S. Yes.
Aj. Sounds like an increase in services.
S. I guess as some parents lived outside of st. John's. In st John's. She could work with them
Aj. So after the closure the plan disappeared?
S. Yes.
Aj. Sounds like an increase in services.
S. I guess as some parents lived outside of st. John's. In st John's. She could work with them
Aj. So why do you have the impression services declined for preschool?
S. More fragmented. All teachers working with preschoolers. Instead of 1. More fragmented.
Aj. Were there kids like Carter that arrived at the Deaf school?
S. Yes. Sometimes total communications used.
S. More fragmented. All teachers working with preschoolers. Instead of 1. More fragmented.
Aj. Were there kids like Carter that arrived at the Deaf school?
S. Yes. Sometimes total communications used.
S. Sign language everywhere. So these kids like Carter picked up within a month.
Aj. Did you teach these new kids?
S. No
Aj. How did you know then?
S. You could see them. In the halls. And I heard anecdotes from other staff.
Aj. Did you teach these new kids?
S. No
Aj. How did you know then?
S. You could see them. In the halls. And I heard anecdotes from other staff.
S. There are former students here who can attest to that?
( yes. I can confirm. There are students in there who have testified publicly)
Aj. What was different about the Deaf school approach?
S. Regular school teachers assume that the kids have vocabulary.
( yes. I can confirm. There are students in there who have testified publicly)
Aj. What was different about the Deaf school approach?
S. Regular school teachers assume that the kids have vocabulary.
S. Deaf school assumed the kids didn't start eith vocabulary. So you'd do activities to get them caught up and everyone would be involved. Students would see and pick up. This doesn't exist in regular classroom because the kids already have it.
Aside. This is a frustration deaf school teachers have. Kids not coming in with developed language. It's a challenge and when they go home they lose it.
S. So the methods are different.
Aj. Thank you. No more questions. You can step away now.
Aj. Thank you. No more questions. You can step away now.
Thoughts.
Well... that was a devastating examination. It destroyed the inclusion model and highlighted serious flaws in the mainstream model.
Adjourned for 5 minutes. Back at 10.30
Well... that was a devastating examination. It destroyed the inclusion model and highlighted serious flaws in the mainstream model.
Adjourned for 5 minutes. Back at 10.30
Apologies. Stepped away for a moment. Need to get caught up. We are examining a new teacher of the Deaf.
@kimagreening lawyer has switched for a moment.
She got her education online.
Lawyer is reviewing her courses. Offered a break for her to read descriptions.
@kimagreening lawyer has switched for a moment.
She got her education online.
Lawyer is reviewing her courses. Offered a break for her to read descriptions.
Lawyer points out that only one course in her masters refers to asl.
T. This is.not the course outline.
L. This is current. But I reviewed from 2015 onwards. Only one course you took that refers ask.
T. Yeah. It includes asl as a method of communications. Additional disability
T. This is.not the course outline.
L. This is current. But I reviewed from 2015 onwards. Only one course you took that refers ask.
T. Yeah. It includes asl as a method of communications. Additional disability
T. Was not a course. That is an asl level course. Asl 101. 103. 103. This is not this. This is a general class.
L. I'm talking about the document about master program online.
T. Is it not an asl 101 course.
Aj. You took asl courses outside masters.
T. Yes
L. I don't have that
L. I'm talking about the document about master program online.
T. Is it not an asl 101 course.
Aj. You took asl courses outside masters.
T. Yes
L. I don't have that
L. Is it required for masters?
T. It is required by us.
Aj. Do we have a copy of the course requirement? Asl isn't required?
L. Where is the formal aspect of asl?
T. We pay for it ourselves. Separate. Asl level is required to graduate. We pay it ourselves.
T. It is required by us.
Aj. Do we have a copy of the course requirement? Asl isn't required?
L. Where is the formal aspect of asl?
T. We pay for it ourselves. Separate. Asl level is required to graduate. We pay it ourselves.
L. I'd like you to clarify by what you mean by asl 10q? Okay I'll take you to your affidavit. Says you got 101. By instructor that was recommended. But not part of the course?
T. Correct
L..what's involved?
T. You learn numbers. Letters. Family. Basics.
T. Correct
L..what's involved?
T. You learn numbers. Letters. Family. Basics.
T. Had to do it online.
L. And you got it in 2016?
T. Yes
L. When did you complete that course?
T. 2018.
L. How long was course?
T. Spring. Couple hours.
L. And you got it in 2016?
T. Yes
L. When did you complete that course?
T. 2018.
L. How long was course?
T. Spring. Couple hours.
L. So who was your instructor and their qualifications?
T. Wouldn't be able to tell you.
L. Do you know the asl proficiency of the asl teacher?
T. Wouldn't be able to tell.
L. They were deaf?
T. Yes
L. Were they tested?
T. I don't know.
T. Wouldn't be able to tell you.
L. Do you know the asl proficiency of the asl teacher?
T. Wouldn't be able to tell.
L. They were deaf?
T. Yes
L. Were they tested?
T. I don't know.
L. Was the teacher part of the university?
T. No.
L. How long?
T. Two days. Intense.
L. So you got asl 101 in two days
T. Yes.
P. Did you get tested on your asl proficiency?
T. Not part of my graduation requirement.
T. No.
L. How long?
T. Two days. Intense.
L. So you got asl 101 in two days
T. Yes.
P. Did you get tested on your asl proficiency?
T. Not part of my graduation requirement.
L. Some kids used see?
T. Some did yes
L. Explain the difference
T. Asl is different structure than what we are using. English is English rules. Asl omits some of those words.
L. You got 102 and 103 online?
T. Yes.
L. Walk me through this.
T. Some did yes
L. Explain the difference
T. Asl is different structure than what we are using. English is English rules. Asl omits some of those words.
L. You got 102 and 103 online?
T. Yes.
L. Walk me through this.
L. Are you aware that the program isn't formal.
T. I got a certification I provided to the university.
L. But it is information..not an actual course
T. University okayed it.
L. You know the website has a disclaimer?
T. Where is that disclaimer?
T. I got a certification I provided to the university.
L. But it is information..not an actual course
T. University okayed it.
L. You know the website has a disclaimer?
T. Where is that disclaimer?
Documents being read.
No issues. It's put in as evidence.
L. Did you read this before you used the information resources?
Dl. I don't see a Url.
Aj. Did you get a copy.
Dl. This morning.
T. I've never seen this before.
L. I thought I provided the url. Sorry.
No issues. It's put in as evidence.
L. Did you read this before you used the information resources?
Dl. I don't see a Url.
Aj. Did you get a copy.
Dl. This morning.
T. I've never seen this before.
L. I thought I provided the url. Sorry.
Aj. Is this relevant?
L. Yes. These challenge her qualifications to deaf languages.
Dl. Wait. She went to a credited university and got a masters
Aj. Be careful. You can ask questions. But...we don't know if this disclaimer is new. Or when she took the course.
L. Yes. These challenge her qualifications to deaf languages.
Dl. Wait. She went to a credited university and got a masters
Aj. Be careful. You can ask questions. But...we don't know if this disclaimer is new. Or when she took the course.
Aj. When did you take the course.
T. 2018.
Aj. Hesitant. But you can ask your questions
L. I'm almost done.
Aj. I'll weight this later.
L..I'm fine ditching this if we have to. How long did it take you to complete each level.
T. 2018.
Aj. Hesitant. But you can ask your questions
L. I'm almost done.
Aj. I'll weight this later.
L..I'm fine ditching this if we have to. How long did it take you to complete each level.
T. Those are just levels. You learn different levels as you go. You can ask nlad.
L. There never was a proficiency test for this program?
T..no.
L. What were your other teaching position?
T. Hard of hearing itinerary teacher.
L you provided services
T. Yes
L. What services?
L. There never was a proficiency test for this program?
T..no.
L. What were your other teaching position?
T. Hard of hearing itinerary teacher.
L you provided services
T. Yes
L. What services?
T. Varied in needs. Some had ci. Ha. I don't know if I should go into details.
L. Not fair to discuss those students. But did any have similar needs to Carter. Can you answer?
Aj. Answer
T. Not to the same extent. I'm not comfortable. I don't want to be able to identify them
L. Not fair to discuss those students. But did any have similar needs to Carter. Can you answer?
Aj. Answer
T. Not to the same extent. I'm not comfortable. I don't want to be able to identify them
Aj..fair. do you have experience with ci students?
T. Yes
Aj. Any with language delays?
T. Yes
Aj. Age?
T. Some under 5
Teacher is very uncomfortable
T. Yes
Aj. Any with language delays?
T. Yes
Aj. Age?
T. Some under 5
Teacher is very uncomfortable
L. Any example of how you would teach the curriculum?
T. Thinking of to say. I don't want people to figure out who are my students.
Aj. Examples?
T. Um...
Aj. Let's take a break. 5 minutes
T. Thinking of to say. I don't want people to figure out who are my students.
Aj. Examples?
T. Um...
Aj. Let's take a break. 5 minutes
Aside. Teacher is new and has to protect herself. I get her position because if her students are identified their parents may be contacted. It's not a good thing.
@NLESDCA lawyer isn't happy the teacher asl qualifications are being challenged. It highlights the need to test and confirm asl proficiency. Can't just take a course. Have to prove it.
@NLhumanrights shoutout to you folks for drastically improving the quality of accessible services. It is much appreciated and I'm following this better.
And we're back.
Lawyer needs to go through faster.
Going over teacher record. Teacher has put on a jacket. Seems cold. I'm comfy in my pjs
Lawyer needs to go through faster.
Going over teacher record. Teacher has put on a jacket. Seems cold. I'm comfy in my pjs
L. So you.have a language proficiency certification in French?
T. Yes
L you're hired in 2019 as a replacement fulltime teacher?
T. Yes.
L. Job description. Direct instruction for Deaf student. For Carter. Does it include effective asl communication?
T. Yes
T. Yes
L you're hired in 2019 as a replacement fulltime teacher?
T. Yes.
L. Job description. Direct instruction for Deaf student. For Carter. Does it include effective asl communication?
T. Yes
L. You couldn't provide your asl proficiency
T. No. I can communicate in asl
L. That's a subjective opinion
T. If that's what you think.
L. So you believe your asl proficiency is superior is a requirement?
T. You'd have to ask the district.
T. No. I can communicate in asl
L. That's a subjective opinion
T. If that's what you think.
L. So you believe your asl proficiency is superior is a requirement?
T. You'd have to ask the district.
L. You believe you were qualified?
T. Yes
L. Why?
T. When they hired me.
L. Here's your asl proficiency score. Do you need time to read?
T. Yes
Paused
T. Yes
L. Why?
T. When they hired me.
L. Here's your asl proficiency score. Do you need time to read?
T. Yes
Paused
L. Were you tested before you were hired
T. No. I would be tested.
L. You're level 4. That's out of 11. That's survival. Passing grade is level 6. Intermediate. Correct?
T. Yes. While doing my additional tutoring I was assessed as intermediate.
T. No. I would be tested.
L. You're level 4. That's out of 11. That's survival. Passing grade is level 6. Intermediate. Correct?
T. Yes. While doing my additional tutoring I was assessed as intermediate.
L. Even with that tutoring you're still level 4. You don't use Grammer. Struggle with expressive and body shifts. Do you think that's good for Carter
T. I believe my asl is better than what's described here?
L. So you disagree with the consultant?
T. Yes
T. I believe my asl is better than what's described here?
L. So you disagree with the consultant?
T. Yes
L. Are you aware that it is reviewed by a panel after the testing?
Dl wants to stop this line of questioning. Too much time on it.
Aj. We are running out. Get to it.
L. Do you believe your level 4 skills you can provide adequate services to Carter?
T. Yes
Dl wants to stop this line of questioning. Too much time on it.
Aj. We are running out. Get to it.
L. Do you believe your level 4 skills you can provide adequate services to Carter?
T. Yes
L. Did you ask Tammy to help?
T. She would offer but I didn't rely on her.
L. We believe you relied on her more. More to come later. Do you believe he was fully integrated?
T. Yes
L you taught him in asl?
T. Yes.
L in spite of your survival level?
T. (Looking at the dl )
T. She would offer but I didn't rely on her.
L. We believe you relied on her more. More to come later. Do you believe he was fully integrated?
T. Yes
L you taught him in asl?
T. Yes.
L in spite of your survival level?
T. (Looking at the dl )
T. He has support from Tammy and myself.
L. So you believe he was fully integrated.
T. I don't understand what you're asking
L. Your opinion. Nobody could talk to him. Asl was an interpreter.
T. Carter was part of the class. HR teacher. Full instructions. Completed work
L. So you believe he was fully integrated.
T. I don't understand what you're asking
L. Your opinion. Nobody could talk to him. Asl was an interpreter.
T. Carter was part of the class. HR teacher. Full instructions. Completed work
L. Were you aware Carter report card was IE in every subject
T. Yes
L. What does ie mean?
Aj. Grade 4 and 5?
L. Yes. Purpose of my question. You say he was fully integrated but how did he get IE if he got everything in grade 3
T. Yes
L. What does ie mean?
Aj. Grade 4 and 5?
L. Yes. Purpose of my question. You say he was fully integrated but how did he get IE if he got everything in grade 3
Looking for documents.
T. In grade 3 he got numbers. Not ie. Now he's in the classroom taught with other students with asl lessons. He gets ie
L. Why?
T. Ie looks at different part of report card. More details
L could he had gotten a number? Or only ie?
T. In grade 3 he got numbers. Not ie. Now he's in the classroom taught with other students with asl lessons. He gets ie
L. Why?
T. Ie looks at different part of report card. More details
L could he had gotten a number? Or only ie?
T. You'd have to speak to our director... Darlene.
L. Any way to define ie or look at comments?
T. Comments or Darlene.
L have you ever made negative comments about ie?
T. One. I was concerned about further learning difficulties
L. Any way to define ie or look at comments?
T. Comments or Darlene.
L have you ever made negative comments about ie?
T. One. I was concerned about further learning difficulties
L. When?
T. Sept or Oct 2019.
L. Is this the document
T. I don't think so.
Aj. What's the document?
Looking for the right documents.
T. Sept or Oct 2019.
L. Is this the document
T. I don't think so.
Aj. What's the document?
Looking for the right documents.
Documents located.
L. What did you say?
T. It's the email to nlta
L. What does this specific paragraph say? I think @kimagreening has made Carter to be a brilliant child
T. I was in a meeting that said he was a brilliant child.
L..don't parents think that of their kids?
L. What did you say?
T. It's the email to nlta
L. What does this specific paragraph say? I think @kimagreening has made Carter to be a brilliant child
T. I was in a meeting that said he was a brilliant child.
L..don't parents think that of their kids?
L. What's your intention behind this
T. (Swallows) a child who can communicate without any difficulties can complete his or her academics without difficulties and I'll leave it at that.
L. And he needs language for that?
T. He has a language. Asl.
L. I disagree
T. (Swallows) a child who can communicate without any difficulties can complete his or her academics without difficulties and I'll leave it at that.
L. And he needs language for that?
T. He has a language. Asl.
L. I disagree
L. Unfortunately Carter has challenges and I've done lots of assements.
T. I was concerned as those gaps in his language were not getting smaller.
L. How long are those assessments
T. Not long. A bit here and there as we go on
T. I was concerned as those gaps in his language were not getting smaller.
L. How long are those assessments
T. Not long. A bit here and there as we go on
L. So you were assessing his asl?
T. I wasn't assessing his asl.
L. What then?
T. Math.
L. But without language.
T. You're not a teacher! You don't know what it's like!
Room falls silent
T. I wasn't assessing his asl.
L. What then?
T. Math.
L. But without language.
T. You're not a teacher! You don't know what it's like!
Room falls silent
Aj. What would you had taught carter for concepts in grade 3?
T. What the curriculum is for grade 3.
Aj. What information were you provided?
T. I knew he used asl. I knew he has CP and wheelchair.
Aj. Any past info?
T. If I was hired earlier I could had reviewed but
T. What the curriculum is for grade 3.
Aj. What information were you provided?
T. I knew he used asl. I knew he has CP and wheelchair.
Aj. Any past info?
T. If I was hired earlier I could had reviewed but
Teacher is describing how lessons are done visually in asl... can take awhile.
Aj. What format do you use with Carter?
T. Asl
Aj. Any difficulties?
T. I would ask for Tammy help. She would give me info..explain it this way or that.
Aj. What format do you use with Carter?
T. Asl
Aj. Any difficulties?
T. I would ask for Tammy help. She would give me info..explain it this way or that.
T. I would ask Tammy for signs for this or that
Aj any examples?
T. I'd have to look at the curriculum
Aj. Uhuh. How would you teach a new vocabulary to carter?
T. I would use visuals. Act it out. IPad. Fun ways
Aj. Was he able to use that.
T. Sometimes.
Aj any examples?
T. I'd have to look at the curriculum
Aj. Uhuh. How would you teach a new vocabulary to carter?
T. I would use visuals. Act it out. IPad. Fun ways
Aj. Was he able to use that.
T. Sometimes.
T. Carter could retain info for 5 minutes. Sometimes a week.
Can hear kim crying in the background. Aside. If he used those signs often he would retain it. Gotta use words often or you forget.
Aj. You used assisted tech. He needs to use that to contuine education
Can hear kim crying in the background. Aside. If he used those signs often he would retain it. Gotta use words often or you forget.
Aj. You used assisted tech. He needs to use that to contuine education
T. Assisted technology was used to improve his education and independence.
Currently describing the app and what it does. Adjusted for his CP.
Teacher is not looking at all toward the churchills and focused on the AJ. She's also getting upset
Currently describing the app and what it does. Adjusted for his CP.
Teacher is not looking at all toward the churchills and focused on the AJ. She's also getting upset
T. I focused on trying to make him safe. I wanted to improve his quality of life. I felt he needed to read. To spell. How to do our math. I wanted to make his life happier. Better.
Aj. Could he use the iPad.
T. Yeah. It was working well. But it only arrived on my last day. I don't know if it was being used after I left. He had trouble physically using technology.
It's a challenge to follow as there's a lot of upset people in the room.
T. Yeah. It was working well. But it only arrived on my last day. I don't know if it was being used after I left. He had trouble physically using technology.
It's a challenge to follow as there's a lot of upset people in the room.
T. He knew what it was
Aj. Was the iPad superior to asl?
T. No! Totally different. Neither trumps. Its not erasing his language. They helped.
Aj. Back to the lawyer.
L. Almost done then Kyle can take over. Let's go back to the email.
Aj. Was the iPad superior to asl?
T. No! Totally different. Neither trumps. Its not erasing his language. They helped.
Aj. Back to the lawyer.
L. Almost done then Kyle can take over. Let's go back to the email.
L. "I decided not to go ahead anything personally and I really don't appreciate what has been put out there regarding my abilities"
T. I didn't need the additional stress.
T. I didn't appreciate what was being said that was false.
L..what was false?
T. I wasn't qualified
T. I didn't need the additional stress.
T. I didn't appreciate what was being said that was false.
L..what was false?
T. I wasn't qualified
L. Did you read this?
T..I haven't read it since first time. It'd an interview @kimagreening gave.
L. So that's how your relationship started.
T. Unfortunately.
L. You only spent 3 weeks with him for assessment.
L. So after 8 days of this. You decided was deficient.
T..I haven't read it since first time. It'd an interview @kimagreening gave.
L. So that's how your relationship started.
T. Unfortunately.
L. You only spent 3 weeks with him for assessment.
L. So after 8 days of this. You decided was deficient.
T. Correct.
L. You wrote:not going to let unhappy people get to me." (Missed the rest)
T. Correct.
L. You believe they were trying to get ahead by expressing their concern for their son.
T. I've already answered that..
Switching lawyer.
L. You wrote:not going to let unhappy people get to me." (Missed the rest)
T. Correct.
L. You believe they were trying to get ahead by expressing their concern for their son.
T. I've already answered that..
Switching lawyer.
Aj. You're out of time. I don't think it's appropriate to have two cousels take a Crack at the witness.
Anything new to cover?
L. Just wanted to clarify Tammy. She wasn't responsible for delivering the curriculum?
T. She was part of Carter life. Helped with washroom.. etc
Anything new to cover?
L. Just wanted to clarify Tammy. She wasn't responsible for delivering the curriculum?
T. She was part of Carter life. Helped with washroom.. etc
Lawyer. Done.
Aj reviewing notes. DL is red faced and swallowing with some sort of twitch.
Aj reviewing notes. DL is red faced and swallowing with some sort of twitch.
Aj. I'm done. Thank you. You're released.
Scheduled break. Scheduled to return at 1.
Thoughts. The teacher was never properly challenged on her skills and given acceptable resources to improve. Whose fault is this? @NLESDCA or @NL_Assoc_Deaf ? Some tough questions to be asked
And it's 1. Room is filling and the music is lovely.
Update. Gone through two witnesses. Got tense and emotional at times. Onto the third. This is the current teacher of the Deaf if I understand it correctly. Two years now.
Gillian lahoda is the current teacher . Doing oath. Will be referred as G.
Expected to be under an hour by Kyle. Going over affidavit
G. Started in May 2020.
L. You're teaching asl immersion.
G. Yes.
L. You're teaching this fall?
G. Yes
L. How did you get assigned?
Expected to be under an hour by Kyle. Going over affidavit
G. Started in May 2020.
L. You're teaching asl immersion.
G. Yes.
L. You're teaching this fall?
G. Yes
L. How did you get assigned?
G. You'd have to ask my employer
L. How long did you do 1 on 1m
G. Just the first year. I had another student added.
L. Did you know that about @kimagreening and the complaints?
G. No not when I started.
L. Did the district give you directions?
G. Yes. Copy the principal
L. How long did you do 1 on 1m
G. Just the first year. I had another student added.
L. Did you know that about @kimagreening and the complaints?
G. No not when I started.
L. Did the district give you directions?
G. Yes. Copy the principal
L. Oh right. 2020 covid. You moved to virtual
G. Right. I haven't gone into the school
L how was the sessions online?
G. Once a week and June we went once a day.
L. Kim request?
G. As far as I know it was the director Darlene instruction.
G. Right. I haven't gone into the school
L how was the sessions online?
G. Once a week and June we went once a day.
L. Kim request?
G. As far as I know it was the director Darlene instruction.
L. Were you at the strawberry marsh road program?
G. Yes. I could provide a benefit
L. It was an asl program?
G. Correct. Not a dhh program. Asl immersion.
L. When you were hired still was called asl immersion?
G. Yes
G. Yes. I could provide a benefit
L. It was an asl program?
G. Correct. Not a dhh program. Asl immersion.
L. When you were hired still was called asl immersion?
G. Yes
L. Interesting. I know your affidavit is put together with legal. Why isn't called dhh?
G. Current director felt that dhh was more appropriate and requested we call it that.
L. Did they tell you why?
G. I believed it was more appropriate.
L. Why?
G. Current director felt that dhh was more appropriate and requested we call it that.
L. Did they tell you why?
G. I believed it was more appropriate.
L. Why?
G. When working with dhh students you don't always use only asl. You may use signed English. We use SEE for verbs.
L. Would all these kids be deaf?
G. No. One does not have a hearing loss. That student has a brain condition that doesn't allow speech to get to the brain
L. Would all these kids be deaf?
G. No. One does not have a hearing loss. That student has a brain condition that doesn't allow speech to get to the brain
Aside. That child likely had an audio processing disorder. It's a type of hearing loss but it's a brain condition and not a sensoneural
L. What's an ie?
G. Insufficient evidence to evaluate.
L. Why?
G. Covid had a role. I can't think of another reason
G. Insufficient evidence to evaluate.
L. Why?
G. Covid had a role. I can't think of another reason
L. I know covid is a concern but we're still seeing IE. @kimagreening is concerned that kids aren't taught grade level.
G. It's definitely a reason. All my kids have a severe language delay. I can't teach appropriate to chronological age. The idea of ie... (pauses)
G. It's definitely a reason. All my kids have a severe language delay. I can't teach appropriate to chronological age. The idea of ie... (pauses)
G. We wanted to provide some rich anecdotal evidence. We were seeing progress with the children. We wanted to meet where they were. Fill in the gap.
L. Tell me about Carter. What was his appropriate level?
G. Math
L. Why only that?
L. Tell me about Carter. What was his appropriate level?
G. Math
L. Why only that?
G. I think carter struggles with reading and writing. Word recognition. I don't believe he has a cognitive delay. Maybe a learning disability. No formal diagnose.
L. Ms van greest. Disagreed there. Doesn't think he could retain information. Do you agree@m
G. I don't think so. No
L. Ms van greest. Disagreed there. Doesn't think he could retain information. Do you agree@m
G. I don't think so. No
L. Interesting. She formed that after 3 weeks. You spent two years with him.
G. Well. Carter didn't get involved in classroom discussions. One word answers. I think he needed to be comfortable before volunteering his ideas.
G. Well. Carter didn't get involved in classroom discussions. One word answers. I think he needed to be comfortable before volunteering his ideas.
G. Carter does have struggles retaining reading words. I don't know why. So we're trying different literacy approaches.
L. So he's learning below everything except math. Right?
G. It's not that simple. Math is at grade. Some good some not quite there. So it's tough to grade him
L. So he's learning below everything except math. Right?
G. It's not that simple. Math is at grade. Some good some not quite there. So it's tough to grade him
G. I'd like to add that the ie decision was made by the psychologist. Administrators. District and director of dhh. Ie can be used for up to two years to get them caught up.
L. You were part of this group discussion. Before at beachy cove he was getting numbers. Now he's not getting it. Was there concern how to address that with family?
Did you understand that it would appear to be inconsistent?
Did you understand that it would appear to be inconsistent?
G. My personal opinion the numbers isn't accurate. As a parent I want to see anecdotal comments to see where they're going with it. What are the teachers doing?
L. Are you aware of reports over the years about deaf education?
G. Not part.
L. Aware?
G. Yes
L. Are you aware of reports over the years about deaf education?
G. Not part.
L. Aware?
G. Yes
L. A researcher here was going internet searching in other provinces. Edmonton for example. She felt that newfoundland was struggling. Do you agree?
G. In 2018. I was teaching a class. I wasn't following that.
G. In 2018. I was teaching a class. I wasn't following that.
L. Fair. You're focusing on your own students. Were you provided with educational criteria? Guidelines with working deaf children?
G. My student had an itinerant teacher provided
L. Now you're in an asl or dhh. What do I call it? To your knowledge is there a curriculum?
G. My student had an itinerant teacher provided
L. Now you're in an asl or dhh. What do I call it? To your knowledge is there a curriculum?
G. Guideline is from apsea
L. So not the district ?
G. Correct. We use the core curriculum of apsea. But also grade level.
L. Whose decision was that to follow that policy?
G. Decision comes from director of dhh
L. So not the district ?
G. Correct. We use the core curriculum of apsea. But also grade level.
L. Whose decision was that to follow that policy?
G. Decision comes from director of dhh
L. Thats Darlene?
G. Yes
L. Who told you to follow apsea.
G. Darlene.
L. What's the impact of late first language acquisition?
G. I guess social and emotional implications. Can't communicate with those around. Difficulties.
G. Yes
L. Who told you to follow apsea.
G. Darlene.
L. What's the impact of late first language acquisition?
G. I guess social and emotional implications. Can't communicate with those around. Difficulties.
G. I'm not sure what you're asking
L. Don't worry. We got someone with a ph.d in this. You're not being tested
G. If you don't have first language you can't pick up from incidental language around you.
L. Does Carter have late language?
G. Yes
L. Don't worry. We got someone with a ph.d in this. You're not being tested
G. If you don't have first language you can't pick up from incidental language around you.
L. Does Carter have late language?
G. Yes
L. So how does that change your teaching method?
G. You have to be very cognizant of what the students understand. There's many gaps. It's all new information oftentimes. You have to figure out where the gaps are.
G. You have to be very cognizant of what the students understand. There's many gaps. It's all new information oftentimes. You have to figure out where the gaps are.
L. Carter is enthusiastic about using asl?
G. Yes.
L how important is that?
G. Very
L. You've stated that Carter is growing in language. Expressive?
G. Yes
L. To what extent can you tie that to his exposure to the asl immersion class?
G. Yes.
L how important is that?
G. Very
L. You've stated that Carter is growing in language. Expressive?
G. Yes
L. To what extent can you tie that to his exposure to the asl immersion class?
G. I'd like to think it made a huge difference. Full access to curriculum. Other signers with him. (She is smiling and recalling the class). We take hearing for granted. We hear radios. Outside conversation. Deaf kids don't have this.
G. It's not possible to have a true deep friendship without the ability for mutual conversation. Mutual language. All them are signing. I'd like to think this made a huge positive impact.
Aj. You mention Carter has full access to the curriculum? Describe to me your changes you made so he can access.
G. When I say access. I mean it's presented in ASL. We have very skilled people in our class. Our SAs have gone above and beyond their actual roles.
G. When I say access. I mean it's presented in ASL. We have very skilled people in our class. Our SAs have gone above and beyond their actual roles.
G. SAs have been like language mentors. Facilitators. Carter was quiet at the start. Many students struggled with group work. Look at each other. So we had to teach visual body language needed to ensure asl could be used.
G. Social wise the kids played more and more with each other. School work? I definitely saw progress.
(Smiles) I remember Carter struggled at the start and was crying and upset. It was heartbreaking. A 9 year old couldn't tell us something. And it wasn't a complicated thing.
(Smiles) I remember Carter struggled at the start and was crying and upset. It was heartbreaking. A 9 year old couldn't tell us something. And it wasn't a complicated thing.
G. Now he comes and he tries different approach. His mom @kimagreening will help. He's struggling but he now knows he will eventually get his point across and people want to hear him
Aj. Can you give us a specific example of improvement in vocabulary?
G. Can't recall right now.
Aj. Is he talking in paragraph? Where are we?
G. Sharing time. He will volunteer his news. He now raises his hand. 5 or 6 signs..might not be clear but we can talk to clarify.
G. Can't recall right now.
Aj. Is he talking in paragraph? Where are we?
G. Sharing time. He will volunteer his news. He now raises his hand. 5 or 6 signs..might not be clear but we can talk to clarify.
Aj. Okay. Where is he in social studies and sciences?
G. Different outcomes at different levels. More to do with a lot of lack of knowledge.
*audience of deaf people are crying. The statement that Carter understands that people want to hear him hits hard*
G. Different outcomes at different levels. More to do with a lot of lack of knowledge.
*audience of deaf people are crying. The statement that Carter understands that people want to hear him hits hard*
L. Does Carter have a language?
G. I'm not sure how to answer that.
L. Can he communicate?
G. Yes. Fluently? No.
G. I'm not sure how to answer that.
L. Can he communicate?
G. Yes. Fluently? No.
Going over staff changes. Trying to clarify timeline of staff.
L. You recommended a person be retained?
G. Wasn't a recommendation. Was a question if that person could be hired?
L. She has proficiency asl
G. She's not a native signer.
L. So fluent? Superior?
G. I thought so
L. You recommended a person be retained?
G. Wasn't a recommendation. Was a question if that person could be hired?
L. She has proficiency asl
G. She's not a native signer.
L. So fluent? Superior?
G. I thought so
L. Why?
G. I thought the changes were too much and we should have some familiar faces.
L. She wasn't hired.
G. We still got Sheila.
L. Did you know about Bridget asl?
G. I wasn't told.
L. I understand you used a lot of asl. Did you see van geest use asl?
G. I thought the changes were too much and we should have some familiar faces.
L. She wasn't hired.
G. We still got Sheila.
L. Did you know about Bridget asl?
G. I wasn't told.
L. I understand you used a lot of asl. Did you see van geest use asl?
G. Yes. She used for herself.
L. Do you require asl interpreters?
G. Not often but sometimes when I wasn't sure. English is my first language.
L. Did van geest always use asl interpreter?
G. I'm not always in there but often. along with Deaf SA
L. Do you require asl interpreters?
G. Not often but sometimes when I wasn't sure. English is my first language.
L. Did van geest always use asl interpreter?
G. I'm not always in there but often. along with Deaf SA
G. When van taught math she had an interpreter but I didn't watch.
L. Do you know there is a difference between educational and regular interpreter?
G. Yes. I don't know the details.
L. Do you feel they were useful?
G. Direct communications was more important.
L. Do you know there is a difference between educational and regular interpreter?
G. Yes. I don't know the details.
L. Do you feel they were useful?
G. Direct communications was more important.
G. Interpreters were valuable. Yes! But direct communications was more important where possible.
L. Direct communication is best? That's when you don't use an interpreter?
G. Yes
L. Why?
G. (Laughts) direct communications is superior!
L. Direct communication is best? That's when you don't use an interpreter?
G. Yes
L. Why?
G. (Laughts) direct communications is superior!
L. Sorry it's obvious like how gravity works. But explain why
G. I have limits. I used interpreters then. But when I could direct was better.
L. But to use interpreters they need fluency in asl
G. Yes. But there's more. They need to be aware the person signing is not always
G. I have limits. I used interpreters then. But when I could direct was better.
L. But to use interpreters they need fluency in asl
G. Yes. But there's more. They need to be aware the person signing is not always
The one who is actually talking. So we're teaching that. It's a complicated thing.
L. Do you help then interact with each other when they struggle to talk to each other.
G. An interpreter would interpret the insult. The teacher wouldn't and would explain why that's inappropriate to say
G. An interpreter would interpret the insult. The teacher wouldn't and would explain why that's inappropriate to say
L. Were you in a position to assess Carter literacy by the end of grade 5.
G. Yes. Kindergarten
L. You said his gaps are because he didn't have this classroom until he was in grade 4. How did he get those gaps.
G. I feel I already did.
G. Yes. Kindergarten
L. You said his gaps are because he didn't have this classroom until he was in grade 4. How did he get those gaps.
G. I feel I already did.
L. Fair. Let's try this. Did he have problems accessing in the past?
G. Yes. Immense difficulty in accessing speech and understanding it
L. What do you mean by missed opportunities?
G. This goes back to the Deaf school closing. Some will succeed mainstream.
G. Yes. Immense difficulty in accessing speech and understanding it
L. What do you mean by missed opportunities?
G. This goes back to the Deaf school closing. Some will succeed mainstream.
G. To succeed you need friends to play. You need access to signers. Access to his peers. Not just the teacher.
L. Did he have those opportunities?
G. No. He was the only deaf child. If his classmates had learned asl that would had helped.
L. Did he have those opportunities?
G. No. He was the only deaf child. If his classmates had learned asl that would had helped.
G. He could only talk to his teacher or SA
L. Thank you.
Aj. Mr. Penny? (District lawyer)
Dl. Conferring. One moment.
L. Thank you.
Aj. Mr. Penny? (District lawyer)
Dl. Conferring. One moment.
Dl looks frustrated. Thinking and pensive. Aide says don't.
Dl. No further questions
Dl. No further questions
Aj dismisses the teacher.
Calling next witness. Break. 5 minutes break. Adjourned.
Calling next witness. Break. 5 minutes break. Adjourned.
And we are back.
Line Daly the former principal. 20-22 will be referred as LD.
L. You're going back to teaching?
Ld. Yes.
L. You have no training with Deaf?
Ld. Correct.
L. Any training offered?
Ld. Yes. Latter half. When it was opened up. But I didn't have time
Line Daly the former principal. 20-22 will be referred as LD.
L. You're going back to teaching?
Ld. Yes.
L. You have no training with Deaf?
Ld. Correct.
L. Any training offered?
Ld. Yes. Latter half. When it was opened up. But I didn't have time
Ld. I had staff expressing interest.
L. In 2022.
Ld. Yes.
L. Intro classes?
Ld. Yes. Tammy Vaders. She said it was basic.
L. She's in tomorrow. Were you principal before this was established?
Ld. No. I walked into the school with that program already establishing
L. In 2022.
Ld. Yes.
L. Intro classes?
Ld. Yes. Tammy Vaders. She said it was basic.
L. She's in tomorrow. Were you principal before this was established?
Ld. No. I walked into the school with that program already establishing
L. What did the district tell you of the program?
Ld. Just that it was starting. This many students. This staff. Meeting to get more students to register. That's what I recall.
L. Was it asl immersion?
Ld. Yes. Sometimes immersive.
Ld. Just that it was starting. This many students. This staff. Meeting to get more students to register. That's what I recall.
L. Was it asl immersion?
Ld. Yes. Sometimes immersive.
L. I noticed this isn't the first time but the affidavit says it's dhh. When did that change?
Ld. I can't pinpoint. I know this past school year was referred to me as the dhh classroom. I guess it evolved to that.
L. Who started that reference?
Ld. Darlene. Dhh director.
Ld. I can't pinpoint. I know this past school year was referred to me as the dhh classroom. I guess it evolved to that.
L. Who started that reference?
Ld. Darlene. Dhh director.
L. Did you question that?
Ld. Not outright. But it evolved to that. I can't comment more on that.
L. You were never given impression on the change because it was going to offer less asl?
Ld. No. I guess it would be what students needed to qualify to get it.
Ld. Not outright. But it evolved to that. I can't comment more on that.
L. You were never given impression on the change because it was going to offer less asl?
Ld. No. I guess it would be what students needed to qualify to get it.
L. So why rebrand?
Ld. To get more services for the Deaf children.
L. Why?
Ld. Any student hearing and deaf to get the additional resources.
L. I notice you still use asl.
Ld. It's interchangeable.
L. Interesting.
Ld. To get more services for the Deaf children.
L. Why?
Ld. Any student hearing and deaf to get the additional resources.
L. I notice you still use asl.
Ld. It's interchangeable.
L. Interesting.
L. Were you aware the change coincides with @kimagreening challenging the teacher proficiency
Ld. No. (Hesitant) it was to do with the students in the classroom.
L. Uhuh.
L. Was it explained that these students had challenges with acquiring asl.
Ld. Yes. Teachers explained
Ld. No. (Hesitant) it was to do with the students in the classroom.
L. Uhuh.
L. Was it explained that these students had challenges with acquiring asl.
Ld. Yes. Teachers explained
L. So principal job is to make sure kids get what they need. You're the second principal here. Other one said we tried to do our best. Go get resources from district. Was this something you could do as principal?
Ld. Yes. Consult with director to get the right resources
Ld. Yes. Consult with director to get the right resources
L. So you didn't pass. You had to go consult. To direct. To get info
Ld. Yes.
L. So you're teaching French?
Ld. Yes
L you don't need to do the delp test?
Ld. No. Grandfathered.
L. Did you have to do testing?
Ld. Yes.
L. So you're teaching French?
Ld. Yes
L you don't need to do the delp test?
Ld. No. Grandfathered.
L. Did you have to do testing?
Ld. Yes. Through the interview. I'm French Canadian. It's native. English is much first language.
L. So French is your second language. You still conduct French interview before being hired?
Ld. Yes.
L. Teachers need to pass delp?
Ld. Yes
L. So French is your second language. You still conduct French interview before being hired?
Ld. Yes.
L. Teachers need to pass delp?
Ld. Yes
L. While you were principal. Did you have understanding for requirements of asl proficiency?
Ld. No. Not aware. I wouldn't had asked.
L. You have no background so you couldn't evaluate asl background.
Ld. No
Ld. No. Not aware. I wouldn't had asked.
L. You have no background so you couldn't evaluate asl background.
Ld. No
L. Ie is a pretty unusual thing?
Ld. Yes.
L. Why use?
Ld. Covid has made it a challenge. So district told us when it was appropriate to use ie.
L. And when is appropriate?
Ld. I don't recall.
L. Ie issued when student isn't taught grade level curriculum
Ld. Yes.
L. Why use?
Ld. Covid has made it a challenge. So district told us when it was appropriate to use ie.
L. And when is appropriate?
Ld. I don't recall.
L. Ie issued when student isn't taught grade level curriculum
Ld. When newcomer students come to us without language. We can give them ie up to two years while we close the gap on Language. In Carter case. Language gap. We felt using 1 and 2s would warrant discussion to change the program. We wanted to close the Language gap
L. Gillian said a similar thing. Two years of closing that gap. How would kids who didn't get English language close said gap. So ie seems to make sense. Was it your view that this was closing the gap?
Ld. Fairly close analogy with Syrian refugees. Terms change but...
Ld. Fairly close analogy with Syrian refugees. Terms change but...
Ld. Carter gets more time to close that gap.
L. Carter came to your school with sustainable language gaps?
Ld. That's what I was told.
L. Did you ever query or question staff asl proficiency?
Ld. No.
L. Because you trusted the district would provide skilled staff?
Ld. Yes
L. Carter came to your school with sustainable language gaps?
Ld. That's what I was told.
L. Did you ever query or question staff asl proficiency?
Ld. No.
L. Because you trusted the district would provide skilled staff?
Ld. Yes
L. Ever used the English proficiency test?
Ld. No..didn't know we had that
L. Of course. Did you have vague sense of teacher competency?
Ld. Yes. We apprise staff every 5 years but I didn't have the ability to do that to the asl.
L. That would be inappropriate.
Ld. No..didn't know we had that
L. Of course. Did you have vague sense of teacher competency?
Ld. Yes. We apprise staff every 5 years but I didn't have the ability to do that to the asl.
L. That would be inappropriate.
Ld. I would get a sense walking through class. Seeing student interaction. I see it when they interact with teachers.
L. Did you get resources to evaluate asl teacher?
Le. No. No requirement to assess them.
L. How would you assess the program with ie?
Ld. I don't understand
L. Did you get resources to evaluate asl teacher?
Le. No. No requirement to assess them.
L. How would you assess the program with ie?
Ld. I don't understand
L. You said you use report card as an indicator. But you can't.
Ld. Right. I would talk with teacher about ie. But we had prior discussions. I knew the ie was coming. I read the anecdotal documents
Ld. Right. I would talk with teacher about ie. But we had prior discussions. I knew the ie was coming. I read the anecdotal documents
L. One more question. Staff told you that children were frustrated and unable to access the asl curriculum. So what did you and teachers do?
Ld. No changes made. Alma speaking to staff about new program. Wanted Alma to talk to staff at the start of the school year
Ld. No changes made. Alma speaking to staff about new program. Wanted Alma to talk to staff at the start of the school year
Ld. I wanted to help the program be integrated into the school.
L. So they weren't cut off from the school?
Ld. Right. Except for covid. Neighboring classes wanted to be more involved.
L. So. Your experience of an asl immersion meant they were integrating.
L. So they weren't cut off from the school?
Ld. Right. Except for covid. Neighboring classes wanted to be more involved.
L. So. Your experience of an asl immersion meant they were integrating.
Ld. It was beautiful to watch other students signing to them.
L. So your term is done are you returning to French?
Ld. I was covering the principal. French teaching is my permanent position.
L. Is immersion is this permanent or trial?
L. So your term is done are you returning to French?
Ld. I was covering the principal. French teaching is my permanent position.
L. Is immersion is this permanent or trial?
Ld. Trial. Needed 6 students of close age. We would take it year to year. We wanted to keep them together at their time at east point.
L. So this is still going?
Ld. Yes. I don't know what happens when Carter goes to grade 7.
L. Good. I'll ask others this. Were
you given assurances that this would follow those students?
Ld. No. No definite plan.
Aj. DL have questions? No. You're free to go
Ld. Yes. I don't know what happens when Carter goes to grade 7.
L. Good. I'll ask others this. Were
you given assurances that this would follow those students?
Ld. No. No definite plan.
Aj. DL have questions? No. You're free to go
Aj. Next witness. Bob Gardner. Break to call him in?
Yes. Adjourned to 3 pm.
Yes. Adjourned to 3 pm.
Thought on principal. Her testimony calls in question the previous principal and demonstrated a lack of interest from the district pre 2020 on addressing Carter needs.
And we are back.
Former Deputy education minister is up. Referred to as B. Bob Gardiner.
L. We got a couple of hours with you but let's hope we don't need to go that long. I don't have an affidavit from you. So...
Former Deputy education minister is up. Referred to as B. Bob Gardiner.
L. We got a couple of hours with you but let's hope we don't need to go that long. I don't have an affidavit from you. So...
L. To clarify you aren't an unwilling witness. I will give you documents as we go on occasion. I will keep them as general as possible. Tell me who you are
B. 2001 was consultant. In 2013. Manager. Then director. Evaluation and research. Them 2017 Deputy minister of Ed.
L. You still employed?
B. No.
Now going over his history. Long.
B. Not involved with programming. Was legislative change. Collective agreement.
L. You still employed?
B. No.
Now going over his history. Long.
B. Not involved with programming. Was legislative change. Collective agreement.
L. Okay. So in 2017 Deputy minister of ed
B. Yes.
L. Sounds like a lot of learning
B. Yes. Outlines the ministers he served under.
L. Do you have any educational background for the Deaf?
B. No
L. Any general knowledge?
B. No
B. Yes.
L. Sounds like a lot of learning
B. Yes. Outlines the ministers he served under.
L. Do you have any educational background for the Deaf?
B. No
L. Any general knowledge?
B. No
L. Right. So in 2011. You were director of school services. Do you recall this report?
B. No
L. Is it reasonable in 2011 you would had seen it.
B. No. Not as director of school services. Let me read. I don't recall but I likely read this. Not to approve.
B. No
L. Is it reasonable in 2011 you would had seen it.
B. No. Not as director of school services. Let me read. I don't recall but I likely read this. Not to approve.
B. It's an update on recommendations.
L. Working of government always mystified me. When you get your role do you get a bunch of stuff to read to get caught up?
B. Yes. Briefing. Assistant Deputy ministers and directors would bring me up to speed.
L. Let's try this...
L. Working of government always mystified me. When you get your role do you get a bunch of stuff to read to get caught up?
B. Yes. Briefing. Assistant Deputy ministers and directors would bring me up to speed.
L. Let's try this...
L. Were you aware of problems with Deaf education in 2018?
B. Not that I can recall
L. Do you know they weren't addressed?
B. Not that I recall?
L. Is it typicL that little progress is made?
B. Darlene was working with the department. Might have been her work to undertake.
B. Not that I can recall
L. Do you know they weren't addressed?
B. Not that I recall?
L. Is it typicL that little progress is made?
B. Darlene was working with the department. Might have been her work to undertake.
B. I don't do day to day direction.
L. Let's talk about the gaps. Not first. Second one... need to collect data on Deaf and hard of students. No formal system. Recommends apsea. Planning on doing it.
B. Wasn't my role setting up that database.
L. Let's talk about the gaps. Not first. Second one... need to collect data on Deaf and hard of students. No formal system. Recommends apsea. Planning on doing it.
B. Wasn't my role setting up that database.
B. Automatically on apsea board. I dif have many convos with superintendents. Wanted more services from apsea. I don't recall if Lisa and directors did that.
L. When you retired in 2020 was this done?
B. I can't answer.
L. It wasn't.
L. When you retired in 2020 was this done?
B. I can't answer.
L. It wasn't.
L . No systemic process to accommodate new deaf children as Deaf school closed. Recommended to address this gap. In 2018 still no guidelines. 7 years later.
B. I wouldn't have the expertise to develop the guidelines. That would be student services.
B. I wouldn't have the expertise to develop the guidelines. That would be student services.
L. So that's the district role.
B. Yes working with the department.
L. But this is a provincial guideline.
B. Policy changes. District and department works collaborating. Department overarching and oversees. We don't develop without Frontline input
B. Yes working with the department.
L. But this is a provincial guideline.
B. Policy changes. District and department works collaborating. Department overarching and oversees. We don't develop without Frontline input
L. Did you do anything to fulfill this recommendation? Aware of progress
B. No. That's Manager or director or assistant.
L. So what did you do? What were you aware?
B. Work on dhh p4ograminy. I was aware. Enhance lisa role. Aspea.
B. No. That's Manager or director or assistant.
L. So what did you do? What were you aware?
B. Work on dhh p4ograminy. I was aware. Enhance lisa role. Aspea.
L. But on apsea you have a greater role and insight.
B. Yes.
L. So here district's need to wait until department approve of additional resources. Whose responsible for that? Fyi UN rights of people's with disabilities. District said they couldn't get enough resources
B. Yes.
L. So here district's need to wait until department approve of additional resources. Whose responsible for that? Fyi UN rights of people's with disabilities. District said they couldn't get enough resources
L. District passed it to the department for more resources. Whose job at the department was it to allocate the resources?
B. Two different types of resources. Human resources. Etc. Goes on... allocation letter. Telling us how much was allocated.
B. Two different types of resources. Human resources. Etc. Goes on... allocation letter. Telling us how much was allocated.
B. If district wanted to change that allocation they needed to ask us. We had a model from 2008. On as needed basis.
Aside. He isn't answering. Just outlining resources.
Aside. He isn't answering. Just outlining resources.
B. District never came to us asking for more dhh staff.
L. District keeps looking for support from department. You're telling me the district never asked you for more assistance.
B. Correct. If they made a request. That would be from the ceo of the district. That would be Tony
L. District keeps looking for support from department. You're telling me the district never asked you for more assistance.
B. Correct. If they made a request. That would be from the ceo of the district. That would be Tony
L. Tony stack?
B. Yes
L. Let's go to no formal requirement for asl proficiency. Tests exist. Any progress made to address this?
B. Not our place to make progress on that point. That's district.
L. So department not district implementing that
B. That's part of the hiring
B. Yes
L. Let's go to no formal requirement for asl proficiency. Tests exist. Any progress made to address this?
B. Not our place to make progress on that point. That's district.
L. So department not district implementing that
B. That's part of the hiring
Aj asking questions.
B. District hire. Their job to make sure who they hire is skilled
L. So apsea test. District job?
B. Yes. Part of hiring.
B. District hire. Their job to make sure who they hire is skilled
L. So apsea test. District job?
B. Yes. Part of hiring.
L. There's no formal asl curriculum.
B. Department develops curriculum.
L. So why didn't you do it?
B. Not brought to my attention.
B. Department develops curriculum.
L. So why didn't you do it?
B. Not brought to my attention.
L. 7 years later. Development of courses. Who does that?
B. Department develops. Policy development. Teachers look at policy and develops course and department approves. No asl provincial curriculum.
L. Could district do this?
B. Needs approval can make but we sign off.
B. Department develops. Policy development. Teachers look at policy and develops course and department approves. No asl provincial curriculum.
L. Could district do this?
B. Needs approval can make but we sign off.
L. Staff working with Deaf don't need formal training. Department or district responsibility.
B. District. Department gives them an amount of cash. District decides how to use it to hire SA.
B. District. Department gives them an amount of cash. District decides how to use it to hire SA.
L dept of Ed holds the purses. District never approached?
B. I never said that. During my four years as Deputy minister they didn't come with specifically additional staff requesting.
B. I never said that. During my four years as Deputy minister they didn't come with specifically additional staff requesting.
L. Why is this report on 2011 and updated in 2018... a lot of work in this. Why was it done by department and not the district if it's the district job to do this? Can the department compel the district to fix this?
B. You'd have to ask Darlene.
B. You'd have to ask Darlene.
L. Department can't go on their own and write the report.
B. Department always trying to improve. Look for gaps and improve it. We had a task force oj this. Major work. Always looking to improve.
B. Department always trying to improve. Look for gaps and improve it. We had a task force oj this. Major work. Always looking to improve.
B. Does department have the authority to direct the district to fix it? It's rare. We work closely together. We have to follow those policy.
L. Okay. Let's try it this way. Does the paper from the department mean the district looks and can review and make the changes?
L. Okay. Let's try it this way. Does the paper from the department mean the district looks and can review and make the changes?
B. I can't speak specifically to this report.
( proceeds to not answer the question)
L. Who closed the school.
B. Before me. We ran the school though.
L. So district's ended up being responsible for those students
B. Yes.
L. Department was to help?
B. Yes
( proceeds to not answer the question)
L. Who closed the school.
B. Before me. We ran the school though.
L. So district's ended up being responsible for those students
B. Yes.
L. Department was to help?
B. Yes
B. When the Deaf school closed we had a specific budget for those teachers. Reduced as we assumed those students graduated.
L. They were trained out?
B. Yes.
L. Are you aware that Churchill was during your time as Deputy minister. It was on your radar.
B. Yes
L. They were trained out?
B. Yes.
L. Are you aware that Churchill was during your time as Deputy minister. It was on your radar.
B. Yes
L. So was Carter the only child learning in asl?
B. I can't speak to that. He couldn't had been.
L. Why did you pass churchills to district
B. Was the district responsibility.
L. But the curriculum was department.
B. Correct.
B. I can't speak to that. He couldn't had been.
L. Why did you pass churchills to district
B. Was the district responsibility.
L. But the curriculum was department.
B. Correct.
I think @NicoleMarshNL wish she had her ping pong balls. She's pissed and shaking her head in disbelief.
L. Were you aware the district would no approve of the program to allow @kimagreening to improve asl in the school.
B. It was not appropriate.
B. It was not appropriate.
L. What were your abilities with faciliting this program?
B. We couldn't put pressure on the district. We reviewed. Put it through the approval process. Eventually we said they would be allowed to develop a program to this effect.
L. They? District?
B. Yes
B. We couldn't put pressure on the district. We reviewed. Put it through the approval process. Eventually we said they would be allowed to develop a program to this effect.
L. They? District?
B. Yes
L. What were the focus from the government?
B. Mental health. Well being. Improving education outcome.
B. Mental health. Well being. Improving education outcome.
L. Was the inclusive model identified as a problem?
B. Yes.
L. Minimal support were left behind.
B. I wouldn't say that. General consensus was that more work was needed to be done. More training. Make sure good resources.
B. Yes.
L. Minimal support were left behind.
B. I wouldn't say that. General consensus was that more work was needed to be done. More training. Make sure good resources.
Aside. Staff on Deaf education said inclusive model failed because it cut deaf kids off from other deaf kids and isolated.
L. So specialized classrooms. District or department.
B. District.
L. So report stated that deaf kids were being failed because they needed a satellite classroom.
B. I'm not aware of this proposal.
L. Why was the department talking about a centralised location?
B. District.
L. So report stated that deaf kids were being failed because they needed a satellite classroom.
B. I'm not aware of this proposal.
L. Why was the department talking about a centralised location?
B. District made us aware of this.
DL scribbling notes madly.
DL scribbling notes madly.
L. So how did they get funding?
B. The classroom proposal would come to us and we would approve on additional resources.
L. Can district's come throughout the year for money?
B. Yes. If it's a cool program. We can discuss additional funding.
B. The classroom proposal would come to us and we would approve on additional resources.
L. Can district's come throughout the year for money?
B. Yes. If it's a cool program. We can discuss additional funding.
L. Did funding for this program. Asl immersion. come across your table?
B. Not to my knowledge.
B. Not to my knowledge.
L. Can district make a position director of deaf and hard of hearing?
B. Dhh teachers needed a specialist as a supervisor. We signed off on it
B. Dhh teachers needed a specialist as a supervisor. We signed off on it
L. Confirm department didn't play a role in approval of asl class?
B. Correct.
L. So steering committee. Why?
B. We wanted to not review but evaluate the programming for dhh students. (Explaining the roles)
I'm burnt out trying to follow this. It's been a long day
B. Correct.
L. So steering committee. Why?
B. We wanted to not review but evaluate the programming for dhh students. (Explaining the roles)
I'm burnt out trying to follow this. It's been a long day
Why am I burnt out? This guy is giving too much details... and being evasive. I feel like I'm at a senate hearing.
@NicoleMarshNL wanna get some coffee? I'm sure when we're done he will still be explaining.
Note that they wouldn't be deaf experts but experts at navigating the system
And that's helpful how?
And that's helpful how?
@NL_Assoc_Deaf was asked by the government for a parent rep. The department did not vet to ensure that person was a parent of a deaf child.
L. So the committee was setting the tone?
B. When I retired they were meeting every 3 weeks. Covid hit so I don't know what happened after
L. So the committee was setting the tone?
B. When I retired they were meeting every 3 weeks. Covid hit so I don't know what happened after
L. One more question. Premier task force had influence. Did you know two of those members played a key role in closing the Deaf school.
B. No I wasn't aware.
B. No I wasn't aware.
Aj. Any questions?
Break?
Okay. Off record now. Not sure whats happening.
Break?
Okay. Off record now. Not sure whats happening.
@NLhumanrights are we done or on a break?
Back on the record.
B. I wasn't involved in discussion or decision making for closure of deaf school I did know Dr. Michelle was on the task force and minister.
B. I wasn't involved in discussion or decision making for closure of deaf school I did know Dr. Michelle was on the task force and minister.
Now dl asking questions.
Who is responsible for preschool education?
B. Preschool... during ECE. Department. Prekindergarten... no mandate for the district. Or department. I'm speculating. District for dhh students. Department before deaf school closure.
Who is responsible for preschool education?
B. Preschool... during ECE. Department. Prekindergarten... no mandate for the district. Or department. I'm speculating. District for dhh students. Department before deaf school closure.
B. I stress... a gray area.
Dl. No further questions.
Aj. I have no further questions. You're released.
Adjourned til tomorrow. 9 am.
Dl. No further questions.
Aj. I have no further questions. You're released.
Adjourned til tomorrow. 9 am.
@NL_Assoc_Deaf was the person you sent a parent of a deaf child that was enrolled in the system at the time?
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