Good morning @NLhumanrights @GovNL @NLESDCA @kimagreening #deafchildrenmatters and welcome to day... *looks at his notes* yeah, Day 5. we're passing the halfway mark on this emotional and traumatic human rights hearing. on the docket today is 1/2
1. Bonnie Woodland, former district director of student services
2. Kim Lawlor, District Program Specialist for Student Services
3. Paulette Jackman, Former Consultation for dept. Ed
4. Elizabeth Churchill, former assistant deputy Minister
2. Kim Lawlor, District Program Specialist for Student Services
3. Paulette Jackman, Former Consultation for dept. Ed
4. Elizabeth Churchill, former assistant deputy Minister
I'm told more and more Deaf leaders, educators and retired staff are tuning in to this. I know many havent said much publicly but you are being noticed. A new generation of Deaf leaders are coming to the forefront and we appreciate your sage advice. Thank you
I shared the stats on how many people have viewed and discussed the hearing with @kimagreening and it has touched all of us in this heart-wrenching fight. Thank you.
and it's 9 am, we're getting ready to begin.
and it's 9 am, we're getting ready to begin.
9:01 and we're on the record!
Bonnie Woodland is up. will be referred to as B. Former director of student services.
I'm loving the accuracy of the captioning and the interpreters. It's a tough job.
B is scheduled for 3 hours but they expect it to be 2.
@NLhumanrights
Bonnie Woodland is up. will be referred to as B. Former director of student services.
I'm loving the accuracy of the captioning and the interpreters. It's a tough job.
B is scheduled for 3 hours but they expect it to be 2.
@NLhumanrights
It's pretty foggy in St. John's. Glad everyone found the location. I don't know how!
B. I may be taking notes when you're asking me questions
L. That's fine. You retired for 48 hours?
B. a little less.
L. Congrats
Aside. She was already retiring prior to this
B. I may be taking notes when you're asking me questions
L. That's fine. You retired for 48 hours?
B. a little less.
L. Congrats
Aside. She was already retiring prior to this
B. Director for 4ish years
L. what was your job in your role?
B. Avalon eastern region was my jurisdiction. manager of student students for 100 or so schools. 60 specialists for 10 or 11 exceptionalities
L. what was your job in your role?
B. Avalon eastern region was my jurisdiction. manager of student students for 100 or so schools. 60 specialists for 10 or 11 exceptionalities
L. Exceptionalism included DHH?
B. Yes
L. This included carter's schools?
B. Yes. renamed and rebuilding schools but yes.
L. Qualified for Deaf?
B. no but I have masters in ed, guideance, couselling. secondary school, experience in special ed. (has experience with the program)
B. Yes
L. This included carter's schools?
B. Yes. renamed and rebuilding schools but yes.
L. Qualified for Deaf?
B. no but I have masters in ed, guideance, couselling. secondary school, experience in special ed. (has experience with the program)
L. Any specific with ASL?
B. no. just managing their programs. hence why we have program specialists to fill in those gaps. Diverse staff. We post and try to fill those gaps. position for deaf got filled with speech language pathologist
B. no. just managing their programs. hence why we have program specialists to fill in those gaps. Diverse staff. We post and try to fill those gaps. position for deaf got filled with speech language pathologist
aside. Speech language isnt an expert in the Deaf, just speech
L. what's your understanding of ASL? difference between ASL SEE
B. basic understanding. natural, high proficiency, native, hearing. I was educated as I was in this role. (she is saying her staff was to educate her. hire staff who specialise in this)
B. basic understanding. natural, high proficiency, native, hearing. I was educated as I was in this role. (she is saying her staff was to educate her. hire staff who specialise in this)
L. To your understanding you had no specialist of deaf education?
B. we had program specialist.
L. they report to you?
B. yes. same as dept. ed. specialists. we work together. guideline from Dept. we implement at our discretion.
B. we had program specialist.
L. they report to you?
B. yes. same as dept. ed. specialists. we work together. guideline from Dept. we implement at our discretion.
L. I understand that.
AJ. you're not answering the question. need clarification.
B. Yes I know distinction between ASL SEE. assigned word order isnt considered in ASL. SEE has word order like english.
AJ. you're not answering the question. need clarification.
B. Yes I know distinction between ASL SEE. assigned word order isnt considered in ASL. SEE has word order like english.
L. Your level of knowledge now. Was that the same as 2016?
B. um... it came early on, not later.
B is blinking a lot...
B. um... it came early on, not later.
B is blinking a lot...
Captioning tells me that B described as like gestures. Kyle the lawyer is not impressed.
L. citing a letter from 8 years ago. tell me what this letter's purpose is.
b. need to read,
L. citing a letter from 8 years ago. tell me what this letter's purpose is.
b. need to read,
B. *nodding her head a lot as she reads.*
*sniffs*
*still reading*
*sniffs*
*still reading*
B. okay!
L. last paragraph. Susan Lawler. two years before carter starts school. related to Carter's CI. Letter asks if DEpartment provides Carter with support to expressive language, asl. all kids w hearing loss need asl now. please consider this request favourably
L. last paragraph. Susan Lawler. two years before carter starts school. related to Carter's CI. Letter asks if DEpartment provides Carter with support to expressive language, asl. all kids w hearing loss need asl now. please consider this request favourably
L. I got more letters, but first, what did you do to address this?
B. I dont recall this in carter's files. the lawyer brought this to my attention.
*stammers*
L. you never got this letter?
B. reached me, but it arrived by snail mail, unusual to get this way
*a lot of ums here*
B. I dont recall this in carter's files. the lawyer brought this to my attention.
*stammers*
L. you never got this letter?
B. reached me, but it arrived by snail mail, unusual to get this way
*a lot of ums here*
L. It's not ambiguous.
B. eh?
L. you said he'll also use asl
B. this letter came from the CI team, my understanding he'd also have a CI to use.
B. eh?
L. you said he'll also use asl
B. this letter came from the CI team, my understanding he'd also have a CI to use.
Holy... Bonnie basically said she assumed that because it was the CI team that mailed it to her, carter would also get the speech therapy and CI support and that would the priority, asl is an afterthought.
@kimagreening sorry kim, still being shocked
@kimagreening sorry kim, still being shocked
Clarification. The letter said Carter was to get ASL foremost and CI is support. This is what the CI team said. Bonnie assumed the opposite.
L. I dont get it, it arrived by mail, why wouldn't you had it in the file
B. it didn't stay in my file. I may had passed this paper file to, maybe a team member. I wouldn't had interpreted it as anything above what we were already providing
B. it didn't stay in my file. I may had passed this paper file to, maybe a team member. I wouldn't had interpreted it as anything above what we were already providing
l. so you're saying you assumed no additional services beyond what you provide was necessary?
B. i would had thought that, and passed this to the IEP. and maybe closer to when carter was enrolled, he would get the deaf Itinerty teacher
B. i would had thought that, and passed this to the IEP. and maybe closer to when carter was enrolled, he would get the deaf Itinerty teacher
L. so you think the staff had the skills to meet carter's needs?
B. I believed at the time, yes
*sorry I'm just shocked. Bonnie admitted that she changed the file and denied Carter language support until school started.*
B. I believed at the time, yes
*sorry I'm just shocked. Bonnie admitted that she changed the file and denied Carter language support until school started.*
people in the background are just shocked and shifting in their seats. there are a lot of uncomfortable people right now and angry.
L. When do children need language?
B. Formative years are 0-3
L. did you call susan lalwer?
B I dont recall
Aj, let's move on. clarify the snail mail
B. Formative years are 0-3
L. did you call susan lalwer?
B I dont recall
Aj, let's move on. clarify the snail mail
B. Bonnie is trying to clarify the timeline for the letter. She had practises, she thought this would had been included with the DHH itinerants.
AJ. so this type of letter is something you wouldn't had seen routinely.
B. no.
Aside. actually this was the standard in Ontario
AJ. so this type of letter is something you wouldn't had seen routinely.
B. no.
Aside. actually this was the standard in Ontario
Aside. Ontario, pre-covid sent by snail mail.
Aj, Have you seen this with other children?
B. I... may... have... I can't say for sure?
AJ. trying to understand, is this normal to get snail mail?
B. No.
Aj, Have you seen this with other children?
B. I... may... have... I can't say for sure?
AJ. trying to understand, is this normal to get snail mail?
B. No.
B. In 2014 I dont think we had program specialist hired. that would be Kim Lawler. She was the go-to person. hired the following year.
AJ. I want tounderstand, was this your understanding this was an update to his services?
AJ. I want tounderstand, was this your understanding this was an update to his services?
B. I felt it was an update. reference to SL. our children were learning language through CI. I didnt feel that SL was his first language. I don't recall it. we can't provide SL support.
Aj... so... *sighs* so from this letter what do you think he was receiving at this time?
B. AVT. CI support. I thought his SL needs were met somewhere else.
AJ. who provides SL?
B. our Itinerant along with the AVT. AVT wouldnt be with expressive or SL.
B. AVT. CI support. I thought his SL needs were met somewhere else.
AJ. who provides SL?
B. our Itinerant along with the AVT. AVT wouldnt be with expressive or SL.
B. I wouldnt interpreted SL as primary communications from this letter, nor his first language.
B. we wouldn't disregard SL
AJ. if you wouldn't, why did you disregard it?
B. I think I would had provided this to the IT, maybe IEP, I dont recall above and beyond
Aj. ... okay... thank you, L?
L. i got questions from that statement
AJ. if you wouldn't, why did you disregard it?
B. I think I would had provided this to the IT, maybe IEP, I dont recall above and beyond
Aj. ... okay... thank you, L?
L. i got questions from that statement
L. You called this letter an update
B I believe that's correct
L. you got a degree in a english background. okay... let's deconstruct this letter.
B. letter didn't say he's non-verbal
L. you said SL is his expressive language
B I believe that's correct
L. you got a degree in a english background. okay... let's deconstruct this letter.
B. letter didn't say he's non-verbal
L. you said SL is his expressive language
L. what did you think his expressive language was from this letter? spanish french?
B. I didnt think it was french or spanish. SL will arise. I felt expressive would include SL, but that would be some Ass. tech. to help him in that
B. I didnt think it was french or spanish. SL will arise. I felt expressive would include SL, but that would be some Ass. tech. to help him in that
B. but this letter doesn't state that carter was nonverbal.... does it? *reads again*
L. let's keep talking about call to action
B. sure.
L. Audiologist is telling you that sign language is needed. you said that was unusual. do you believe it was info or a call for you to deal?
L. let's keep talking about call to action
B. sure.
L. Audiologist is telling you that sign language is needed. you said that was unusual. do you believe it was info or a call for you to deal?
B. Early SL. i agree that children get support needed. and that SL support would arise. Thought DHH would provide it. I didn't see it as asking me to deal.
L. is this letter addressed to anyone else?
B. i felt it was IEP process.
L. is this letter addressed to anyone else?
B. i felt it was IEP process.
L. I can't drop this. you keep mentioning this. you passed this to your DHH. did you lose this letter???
B. I dont think i lost it
Aside, deaf support staff in the background are literally shaking
B. I dont think i lost it
Aside, deaf support staff in the background are literally shaking
B. I didn't see this letter as a call to action
For Deaf people following. Bonnie is saying a lot of ums. Would put @JustinTrudeau to shame.
B. I feel the process this letter would go to the IEP to be addressed
For Deaf people following. Bonnie is saying a lot of ums. Would put @JustinTrudeau to shame.
B. I feel the process this letter would go to the IEP to be addressed
L. This letter doesnt have a date, but from avt. is this letter unusual?
*Todd is whispering to Kyle. His face is red... Kim is swallowing and just refusing to look at Bonnie.*
*Todd is whispering to Kyle. His face is red... Kim is swallowing and just refusing to look at Bonnie.*
Former principal Ron Macdonald of the Deaf school, is red faced, crossed armed and leaning back. He does not look happy, even through the mask.
L. This letter stresses he needs access to SL, which isn't policy. Do you stand by this letter?
B. need to read... um...
*correction, Reg MacDonald of the NSD
B. need to read... um...
*correction, Reg MacDonald of the NSD
B. Um... okay... your question was?
L. You stand by it?
B. oh, I wrote it. Janice Mckay. It was unusual when I received it, yes. I got a hard copy. unusual.
L. you knew he was nonverbal
B. yes, *confused face* he could use early sign language.
L. March 31, 2014
L. You stand by it?
B. oh, I wrote it. Janice Mckay. It was unusual when I received it, yes. I got a hard copy. unusual.
L. you knew he was nonverbal
B. yes, *confused face* he could use early sign language.
L. March 31, 2014
B. References to spoken language. letter says he needs manual communication skills, aka early SL. with support in preschool
B. I believe this letter is more explict for SL support. I believe our IT would be able to provide that. I know later it wasnt true.
L. So yes. a call to action
B. I didnt say that.
L it's asking you to support his SL
B. yes
L. ... call to action for you?
L. So yes. a call to action
B. I didnt say that.
L it's asking you to support his SL
B. yes
L. ... call to action for you?
B. we to provide support though our ITT
L. This letter is a speech and language specialist. normally a spoken specialist, not asl. she says he is unable to develop spoken language, but can sign. we are asking for direct support for early SL
L. This letter is a speech and language specialist. normally a spoken specialist, not asl. she says he is unable to develop spoken language, but can sign. we are asking for direct support for early SL
B. my understanding we had DHH IT who provided support. that would had been included. he was provided some support and SL was part of that. my understanding
L. What was Kathy Lawler's ASL proficiency.
B. we provided a holistic approach. we didnt have SL specialist.
L. What was Kathy Lawler's ASL proficiency.
B. we provided a holistic approach. we didnt have SL specialist.
B. I didn't really didn't think this letter was a call to action for me, personally.I thought the level of services we had was good enough and would continue. and eventually identified if it wasn't enough
ASIDE. this is extremely painful to tweet...
L. So you ignored the letter?
B. It just stood out because it was a hard copy. I dont have control over provincial services.
L. Did you contact Paula to redirect those concerns?
B. I may had done that. I don't recall
L. so you don't know what you did?
B. I don't recall
B. It just stood out because it was a hard copy. I dont have control over provincial services.
L. Did you contact Paula to redirect those concerns?
B. I may had done that. I don't recall
L. so you don't know what you did?
B. I don't recall
@kimagreening lawyer's voice is clearly pissed off.
L. So he didnt get support since 2013.
B. I didnt think Paula was wrong. I wouldn't think that. I would had been surprised he wasn't getting SL support. um... *blinking a lot* I thought DHH support included SL
L. So he didnt get support since 2013.
B. I didnt think Paula was wrong. I wouldn't think that. I would had been surprised he wasn't getting SL support. um... *blinking a lot* I thought DHH support included SL
AJ. Did DHH IT fall under your responsibility?
B. Yes
AJ. so they provided SL?
B. Not exactly. it was my understanding that DHHIT SL was included if that's what the child was expected of.
B. Yes
AJ. so they provided SL?
B. Not exactly. it was my understanding that DHHIT SL was included if that's what the child was expected of.
AJ. letter said carter was getting formal support, what happened that DHHIT would had stopped? policy?
B. Staffing changes? I think.
Staff behind with puzzled look
AJ. so gap?
B. no, we would had reassigned to prevent staff gaps
B. Staffing changes? I think.
Staff behind with puzzled look
AJ. so gap?
B. no, we would had reassigned to prevent staff gaps
AJ. any children with CI taken off DHH caseload and moved to AVT?
B. I don't know what you mean.
AJ is visually confused
B. I don't know what you mean.
AJ is visually confused
AJ. going over services and asking about CP and abilities to communicate. in 2013-2014. Dept policy change AVT rather than DHHIT. you didn't know this change?
DL. I think she's confused.
DL. I think she's confused.
B. Thinking about this time frame. hiring... staff changes. thinking we could respond to speech and language development concerns. "my memory is fuzzy" - her exact words
aside. If I killed someone at work, I'd be fired, but my manager would be charged for failure to provide training
B. I don't believe I was aware of staff not doing their jobs with SL support.
AJ. I want to understand this. at the time of the letter, you were responsible for DHHIT?
B. yes
Aj... and... at that time you were unaware of preschoolers removed from dHH to AVT?
AJ. I want to understand this. at the time of the letter, you were responsible for DHHIT?
B. yes
Aj... and... at that time you were unaware of preschoolers removed from dHH to AVT?
B. I'm thinking... I wasn't part of attending any meetings. Ms. Lawyer would had relayed info to me. It's possible Ms. Lawler wasn't employed
B. I may had not known that at the time I got the letter.
AJ. *surprised voice* at the time?
Aside. I think she has said um more than any other word...
AJ. *surprised voice* at the time?
Aside. I think she has said um more than any other word...
B. I don't recall if we were required to provide ASL support.
AJ. 2012-13 he got SL support, developed considerably. then suddenly changed to AVT by Department.
B. I wasn't working during 2012-13.
AJ. when did you start?
*interpreter shakes her head.*
B. 2012-13
AJ. 2012-13 he got SL support, developed considerably. then suddenly changed to AVT by Department.
B. I wasn't working during 2012-13.
AJ. when did you start?
*interpreter shakes her head.*
B. 2012-13
@NLhumanrights I think the interpreters need a break. There's a lot of confusion because Bonnie keeps giving different information and I suspect the Interpreters are struggling trying to keep this straight for the Deaf audience.
@NLhumanrights B. Reviewed, 2013. I would had been starting my position.
interesting aside. was just passed a note that the board and district are merging
interesting aside. was just passed a note that the board and district are merging
L. so these 2014 letters, you were already there.
B. Correct
L. AVT here, CI, both pointing out that carter isn't getting sufficient support for SL. Do you feel they were going to the wrong person?
B. I wouldn't had disregarded them
L. what happened with the letter?
B. Correct
L. AVT here, CI, both pointing out that carter isn't getting sufficient support for SL. Do you feel they were going to the wrong person?
B. I wouldn't had disregarded them
L. what happened with the letter?
B. I don't recall
L. what did you do then???
B. I think I would had shared it with student support, to the DHHIT.
L. not for 2 and a half years more
b. I may had conferred with Dept. Ed. but you said no evidence?
L. Correct
b. I can't recall.
L. what did you do then???
B. I think I would had shared it with student support, to the DHHIT.
L. not for 2 and a half years more
b. I may had conferred with Dept. Ed. but you said no evidence?
L. Correct
b. I can't recall.
Bonnie's face is red and she's starting to cry.
L what do you recall?
B. I don't call
L. WHAT WOULD YOU HAD DONE?
Aj. we're going around in circles
L what do you recall?
B. I don't call
L. WHAT WOULD YOU HAD DONE?
Aj. we're going around in circles
L. so you have no idea what you did?
B. I don't recall. *face is neutral now*
L. *deep sigh* moving forward to Kindergarten. this person provided AVT and DHHIT?
B. she wasn't trained AVT but was doing the training for DHH interested in role.
B. I don't recall. *face is neutral now*
L. *deep sigh* moving forward to Kindergarten. this person provided AVT and DHHIT?
B. she wasn't trained AVT but was doing the training for DHH interested in role.
L. doing math. 950 hours in a school yeah, yet 34 to 56 hours for the year to teach asl. does that cause you concern?
B. *sigh* I believe mr rees... *talking about training the AVT. not answering question* in hindsight? we thought was enough
B. *sigh* I believe mr rees... *talking about training the AVT. not answering question* in hindsight? we thought was enough
L. Speech language have nothing to do with asl?
B. no, but they're communications. we wanted to be sure his support was there, and i thought Ms Halloran would had been part of a full team. no specific support on asl. yes increased though
B. no, but they're communications. we wanted to be sure his support was there, and i thought Ms Halloran would had been part of a full team. no specific support on asl. yes increased though
B. I would had engaged at that point.
L. but 2 and a half years earlier you got those letters. *Kyle's voice is like a parent of a teenager sorting out a teen's excuses to avoid being grounded. clearly a dad*
L. but 2 and a half years earlier you got those letters. *Kyle's voice is like a parent of a teenager sorting out a teen's excuses to avoid being grounded. clearly a dad*
L. but in 2016 you were fully aware of his issues. but while he was learning asl, but teachers weren't proficient and unable to communicate in asl.
b. yes i was aware, but we rely on a team to provide support. I was operating under the model provided by the DHH for services
b. yes i was aware, but we rely on a team to provide support. I was operating under the model provided by the DHH for services
B. I would had not been aware that the support was not enough at the time. until mr. Churchill conversed with me.
Aj. break. ten minutes...
Aj. break. ten minutes...
... Bonnie called them mr. and mrs carter
Break time thought.
We've tracked down where it all began. The rage in the room is... considerable. @kimagreening 's lawyer was actually yelling in frustration and the Ajd is shaking his head. The interpreters are struggling here as well. Props to them for staying pro.
We've tracked down where it all began. The rage in the room is... considerable. @kimagreening 's lawyer was actually yelling in frustration and the Ajd is shaking his head. The interpreters are struggling here as well. Props to them for staying pro.
Back on the air.
L. before break, we established minimal degree of support, 34-56. is this a typical level of support?
b. Yes. that's not a reference point, we look at cycle of 5 to 7 days. no point reference. we did increase it.
l. 34 to 56 hours
B. but that's how many a week
L. before break, we established minimal degree of support, 34-56. is this a typical level of support?
b. Yes. that's not a reference point, we look at cycle of 5 to 7 days. no point reference. we did increase it.
l. 34 to 56 hours
B. but that's how many a week
L. 2 to 1/2 a week
B. yes typical.
L. you advised your staff to do the best they had with resources you provided
B. IT is meant to be fluid. not just DHH, but other ITs as well. we have to frequently adjust level of support
B. yes typical.
L. you advised your staff to do the best they had with resources you provided
B. IT is meant to be fluid. not just DHH, but other ITs as well. we have to frequently adjust level of support
B. we lose staff, students leave, arrive. etc. "do your best" (air quoted) means setting priorities within your caseload. is there anyone lower priority? west and east means avalon area
B. W would be the bay area and E would be the metro city of st. johns. fewer students, increase support in metro area. adjusting as we go. I didn't have control of getting extra IT. that's HR.
B. HR and assistant director set resources for staffing
l. was carter high priority?
b, yes
l. one direct services in september is that high priority?
b. no. services in sept is reduced because they're assessing. DHH has a rush to check equipment
l. was carter high priority?
b, yes
l. one direct services in september is that high priority?
b. no. services in sept is reduced because they're assessing. DHH has a rush to check equipment
b. DHH have to get equipment done first before actually providing services.
l. carter seen twice. direct and in class. is that low amount for high priority?
DL. talking about scheduling document, district had rebuttal doc to this
l. carter seen twice. direct and in class. is that low amount for high priority?
DL. talking about scheduling document, district had rebuttal doc to this
L knocks over Todd's tablet to get the document. was a loud bang.
L. let's try this. assume i'm right, we can disrupt this later. is this a high or low priority?
B. *stammering* it's done in hours of weeks.
l. maybe you dont have a sense of tracking IT process
L. let's try this. assume i'm right, we can disrupt this later. is this a high or low priority?
B. *stammering* it's done in hours of weeks.
l. maybe you dont have a sense of tracking IT process
L. or do you wait for parents to complain?
B. it could trigger that we don't have enough time, but this is true for all teachers, not just DHHIT. not once did a principal say they had too much services.
Aside - depart would provide if asked for more resources
B. it could trigger that we don't have enough time, but this is true for all teachers, not just DHHIT. not once did a principal say they had too much services.
Aside - depart would provide if asked for more resources
B. if i was asked to help, I would had, make recommendations to people or schools for more resources or how IT provides services. IT are independent. if need help, we'll provide.
L. do program specs go to you?
B. consult frequently.
L. do program specs go to you?
B. consult frequently.
L. you know your DHHIT were often going to you and you'd say you wouldn't allocate more resources?
B. we did increase support for Carter, we are not a nimble organization, but i think we're getting better. we did increase the amount of time with the resources we had
B. we did increase support for Carter, we are not a nimble organization, but i think we're getting better. we did increase the amount of time with the resources we had
l. *sarcastic* oh sorry, when did you increase that?
B. some point during the year
L. so you don't know? well 56 hours during the entire time, that's taking in the increase?
B. i know we increased when we became aware we weren't meeting his needs. uhhhh
B. some point during the year
L. so you don't know? well 56 hours during the entire time, that's taking in the increase?
B. i know we increased when we became aware we weren't meeting his needs. uhhhh
B. wasn't full time but increased.
L. uhuh, come back to that later... who would you make a request for more resources?
B. my supervisor, Lucy Warren and Ed Walsh.
L, you make formal request. you'd be aware of the requests.
B. yes.
L. uhuh, come back to that later... who would you make a request for more resources?
B. my supervisor, Lucy Warren and Ed Walsh.
L, you make formal request. you'd be aware of the requests.
B. yes.
L. Resources for IT more resources, you relay to your boss
B. yes. not just DHHIT. we would do due diligence. increase services, we would. We added more people after Kindergarten.
L *rubbing his forehead, removed glasses*
B. yes. not just DHHIT. we would do due diligence. increase services, we would. We added more people after Kindergarten.
L *rubbing his forehead, removed glasses*
B. do the best you can, wasn't meant to be long term. We were working to make sure we had the resources we needed. It wasn't just in our budget. ** we would request and boss would go over budget and allocate if possible**
L. were you told your budget?
B. not in money, but in teacher unit. so resources were staff. X is staff we had, y is what we want. we had to work within the X and not the Y
B. not in money, but in teacher unit. so resources were staff. X is staff we had, y is what we want. we had to work within the X and not the Y
L. so budget of staff, from department?
B. yes. Mr. walsh would get that from the department
L. did you ask him for more for X? to increase X
B. Not Walsh, Ms. Warren.
L. How often would you ask for X for Carter?
B. after talking to Todd, he talked to me more often
B. yes. Mr. walsh would get that from the department
L. did you ask him for more for X? to increase X
B. Not Walsh, Ms. Warren.
L. How often would you ask for X for Carter?
B. after talking to Todd, he talked to me more often
B. So yes, we would had asked to increase X time for Carter. I know Todd was not happy.
L. did you ask?
B. probably. we did increase DHHIT allocation.
@kimagreening
is biting her lips. Someone just got up and walked out
L. did you ask?
B. probably. we did increase DHHIT allocation.
@kimagreening
is biting her lips. Someone just got up and walked out
B. we increased in grade one, we were looking at full time teacher for Carter. I don't exactly remember when that happened
Aside, she's repeating and going in circles. I thought Bob Gardiner was bad...
Aside, she's repeating and going in circles. I thought Bob Gardiner was bad...
L. hmmm... did you know that Sheila was unable to teach carter asl, timewise, because she was trying to teach the curriculum.
B. we were doing the best we could at the time. we felt we had a qualified, proficient teacher.
Aside - (masters of ed served as a translator?)
B. we were doing the best we could at the time. we felt we had a qualified, proficient teacher.
Aside - (masters of ed served as a translator?)
B. I thought she had time set aside to teach him language an asl.
L. *thumping his pen against the table, hard*
you would had assisted in the posting of hiring of IT?
B. yes
L. *thumping his pen against the table, hard*
you would had assisted in the posting of hiring of IT?
B. yes
L. never a requirement for proficiency in asl?
B. Not at that time, no. it didn't occur to us. we started putting proficiency we couldn't mandate they take the proficiency test
B. Not at that time, no. it didn't occur to us. we started putting proficiency we couldn't mandate they take the proficiency test
B. the process proficiency testing was ongoing. HR couldnt just test one staff on our list. we would have to test them all. would had taken time
l. how would you know if they had any asl?
b. we worked with HR. they had that list
l. how would you know if they had any asl?
b. we worked with HR. they had that list
L. okay, of that list, the first SA he had, *he's choking in frustration* did you get the results?
B. I was surprised
L. right. that SA, terri lynn, couldn't spell her name.
B. unacceptable. we removed her for another SA with better skills. i think we hired Vaters
B. I was surprised
L. right. that SA, terri lynn, couldn't spell her name.
B. unacceptable. we removed her for another SA with better skills. i think we hired Vaters
Reg Macdonald is leaning forward, in that pose I make when I'm ready to lose my temper.
L. So, the SA, is it appropriate to have teachers ask them to translate the curriculum.
B. SA are to provide physical support. special exemption for Deaf and Blind
L. So, the SA, is it appropriate to have teachers ask them to translate the curriculum.
B. SA are to provide physical support. special exemption for Deaf and Blind
L. uhuh.
B. um, portering and physical support. I've come to realise we might have changed it communications might had been added, but no proficiency testing, no policy.
B. um, portering and physical support. I've come to realise we might have changed it communications might had been added, but no proficiency testing, no policy.
L. first teacher, Kindergarten, he was very reliant on the SA, as a result of that the SA ends up taking on the communication role.
B. Kindergarten is important, but it's play based. teachers are expected to adjust, work with support
B. Kindergarten is important, but it's play based. teachers are expected to adjust, work with support
B. teacher would had to be visual, but I'm sure the SA would had done the best she could but wasn't skilled.
Reg Macdonald is now chewing on his fist and coughing.
Reg Macdonald is now chewing on his fist and coughing.
B. there were no deaf students in his class, social and emotional learning is a big piece. and have him there, it wasnt to increase his anxiety, it was to decrease it. to be part of a classroom.
aside... so to put a kid in a room where he couldn't interact is to reduce anxiety?
B. Carter seemed to enjoy it. happy in there. i, we didnt see any signs of a social and emotional level that he was struggling.
L. *distain smile* sorry, Tammy Vaters testified that in grade 1 to 3, that she and Carter were the only deaf people in that building. Only person he could talk to was Tammy.
B. he could communicate with his teacher in asl
B. he could communicate with his teacher in asl
B. it was the best we could provide to Carter. we always thought it was the best we could provide at the time.
I think Reg Macdonald is hiding his face behind the lawyer... He's biting his fingernails now
I think Reg Macdonald is hiding his face behind the lawyer... He's biting his fingernails now
Reg Macdonald was the last principal of NSD before it began the process of closing. He retired before the school was closed
B. I never spoke with the SA, i don't have the luxury of being down there in the classes and with the student. not my job. but the info I got was that he was happy in his class. kids were happy to see him. kids learned some basic signs
B. we didn't get any indication he was under mental duress. Parents know their kids best,
*someone actually brought a knitting kit and is seriously kitting in the room*
*someone actually brought a knitting kit and is seriously kitting in the room*
*knitting
B. parents know their kids best, that's what I learned from my years in this job. I'm a parent/grandparent. i know to my benefit of my abilities we always did the best we could do
B. parents know their kids best, that's what I learned from my years in this job. I'm a parent/grandparent. i know to my benefit of my abilities we always did the best we could do
argument breaking out.
L. so a deaf child alone in a hearing school was happy, and you did your best?
B. I don't recall, signs are absenteeism, withdrawal, crying, acting out. those are the signs of not happy. we had a psychologist for that
L. so a deaf child alone in a hearing school was happy, and you did your best?
B. I don't recall, signs are absenteeism, withdrawal, crying, acting out. those are the signs of not happy. we had a psychologist for that
B. parents communicated Carter was in mental distress but no school official told me. I dont recall, of Carter.
And Reg walks out.
And Reg walks out.
Lawyer is chewing on something... clearly frustrated.
Reg just moved to the back to cough, he's back now
L. document about @kimagreening complaining about lack of ASL
Reg just moved to the back to cough, he's back now
L. document about @kimagreening complaining about lack of ASL
@kimagreening L. policy is that if the teacher isnt qualified, the district is to provide PD to improve skills
B. I don't know who said that, but there was nobody who met the min. qualifications for that job.
L. is it true to provide?
B. um... *stammers* we did provide ASL for Van Geest
B. I don't know who said that, but there was nobody who met the min. qualifications for that job.
L. is it true to provide?
B. um... *stammers* we did provide ASL for Van Geest
B. she was qualified, she had a masters! she needed PD for ASL skills.
L. She said she had no training
B. I recall further support.
L her PI score was pretty low. she said the test was wrong
B. I don't know, I didnt watch the proceeding.
aside, she's not allowed to watch
L. She said she had no training
B. I recall further support.
L her PI score was pretty low. she said the test was wrong
B. I don't know, I didnt watch the proceeding.
aside, she's not allowed to watch
B. I don't recall of an update reports on Deaf ed progress in the district.
L. reading the update report in 2018.
Aside, we're coming up on 3 hours of interviews with her,
L. reading the update report in 2018.
Aside, we're coming up on 3 hours of interviews with her,
L. do you recall? it's part of your role
B I don't recall being advised. *blinking rapidly*
L. *fills her in the report on gaps in deaf ed* Does that concern you?
B. I don't know what those 15 areas are. I was not aware
B I don't recall being advised. *blinking rapidly*
L. *fills her in the report on gaps in deaf ed* Does that concern you?
B. I don't know what those 15 areas are. I was not aware
l. how about you review this to see if it jogs your memory over the lunch break
b. i don't recall. I'm not familiar, *angry voice* I will review it!
b. i don't recall. I'm not familiar, *angry voice* I will review it!
awkward silence...
L. did you ever approach dept. of ed. on developing ASL curriculum?
B. No
L. was that felt to be needed?
B. it is department responsibility. I may..........be.... i don't recall having that conversation
L. did you ever approach dept. of ed. on developing ASL curriculum?
B. No
L. was that felt to be needed?
B. it is department responsibility. I may..........be.... i don't recall having that conversation
B. typically we can have some agenda items added for discussion with dept. ed. if I needed to talk to Bernie, it didnt happen a lot but at that time there was a divide.
L. do you recall any kind of convo with dept on ASL
L. do you recall any kind of convo with dept on ASL
B. um.................................................................................................................................................................................... once we got involved with this complaint, our lawyer, Ian Wallace...
B. process with Dept was less spontaneous with us. I understand Dept. was part of complaint. I know they're not part of it.
L. so when this complaint was filed, you and your role at school district became less spontaneous. what does that mean?
b. Dept. ed was represented yes, my counterpart
L. you're not answering my question.
B. i don't recall having a specific conversation around that time.
b. Dept. ed was represented yes, my counterpart
L. you're not answering my question.
B. i don't recall having a specific conversation around that time.
L. no, you're not off the hook. answer,
B. i'm trying to remember
l. please try. *sarcastic*
B. lawyers handled our communications. I wasn't free to converse. I couldn't talk to @kimagreening except through lawyers.
Reg's face isn't as red and he's starting to smile.
B. i'm trying to remember
l. please try. *sarcastic*
B. lawyers handled our communications. I wasn't free to converse. I couldn't talk to @kimagreening except through lawyers.
Reg's face isn't as red and he's starting to smile.
@kimagreening Summary of her 10 minutes statement... she lawyered up.
b. I misspoke!
L you were afraid to send communications because @kimagreening would get your emails?
B. no, it wasn't a common practise to communicate outside quarterly meetings with dept.
b. I misspoke!
L you were afraid to send communications because @kimagreening would get your emails?
B. no, it wasn't a common practise to communicate outside quarterly meetings with dept.
L. DHH meets lots.
B. I didn't go often, but yes.
L. you got minutes for what you miss?
B. yes
L. let's look at those.
b. See this part on CI students?
B. okay
B. I didn't go often, but yes.
L. you got minutes for what you miss?
B. yes
L. let's look at those.
b. See this part on CI students?
B. okay
l. see the concerns raised on CI? not getting their needs met
b. uhuh
l. they need to get together once a week, closure of deaf school impact, cant access curriculum.
@kimagreening is shaking her head in rage
b. reverse integration is my understanding when hearing kids
b. uhuh
l. they need to get together once a week, closure of deaf school impact, cant access curriculum.
@kimagreening is shaking her head in rage
b. reverse integration is my understanding when hearing kids
B. I dont use that word, integration, hearing kids go into deaf kids.
L, but the idea is deaf kids with other deaf kids
B. not the intent
*lawyer slams the table. @kimagreening is startled. *
L. call to action. need deaf teacher to access curriculum. you did what?
L, but the idea is deaf kids with other deaf kids
B. not the intent
*lawyer slams the table. @kimagreening is startled. *
L. call to action. need deaf teacher to access curriculum. you did what?
@kimagreening clarification. Kyle isn't deliberately slamming the table, he's just putting his pen down hard. frustrated but not slapping the table hard.
L. what did you do to address?
B. repeat the question?
L. following the meeting, I think you did very little, tell me otherwise?
Aj. stop with the hmm., yes or no.
B. sorry, just thinking out loud
aj uhuh
B. repeat the question?
L. following the meeting, I think you did very little, tell me otherwise?
Aj. stop with the hmm., yes or no.
B. sorry, just thinking out loud
aj uhuh
B. we would had talked about it. Kim would had come to me. for a follow up action. I don't recall, I don't think any of these specific requests were actioned around these points at that time
L. you're right. no action! *firm, angry voice*
L. you're right. no action! *firm, angry voice*
L. these DI, you rely on, coming to you with concerns, and you did nothing!
B. there was no movement to get children together. teachers was saying that it's important to to progress on this. I'm not underminding that it wasn't important. it may had been part of their mandate
B. there was no movement to get children together. teachers was saying that it's important to to progress on this. I'm not underminding that it wasn't important. it may had been part of their mandate
L. okay, we're break for lunch. I want this on the record. You are not allowed to talk to anyone. You may confer with your lawyer, but you're not talking to anyone, correct?
Aj, Correct. Break.
B. can you remind me what I'm reviewing over lunch?
Aj, Correct. Break.
B. can you remind me what I'm reviewing over lunch?
B. do you provide lunch?
L. um, these docs.
B. thanks.
Aj. um... we have 3 witnesses, do we come right back what? time management.
l. return for 1. resolve then
AJ. break. See you in 50 minutes.
L. um, these docs.
B. thanks.
Aj. um... we have 3 witnesses, do we come right back what? time management.
l. return for 1. resolve then
AJ. break. See you in 50 minutes.
Thoughts on today @kimagreening vs @NLESDCA after hearing Bonnie woodland testify. And she's not done.
@kimagreening @NLESDCA I realise it's not professional to post a dumpster fire floating down a flooded road, but words can't describe how horrible this testimony has been. It is absolutely damning for @NLESDCA. the shock and horror at the indifference by Woodland is indescribable
@kimagreening @NLESDCA And we're back. Bonnie is still on the stand. DL hasn't had a chance to ask questions, as Kyle has been hammering away at her all morning.
the music was soothing, thanks @NLhumanrights in hindsight, considering how stressful this is, maybe the music should stay, yes
the music was soothing, thanks @NLhumanrights in hindsight, considering how stressful this is, maybe the music should stay, yes
Aj. you were still asking, go ahead
L. right, thanks, I trust you read the documents during lunch?
B. I did. *she has removed her jacket she was wearing earlier*
L. did you review this during your tenure?
B I dont recall.
B is a lot more composed.
L. right, thanks, I trust you read the documents during lunch?
B. I did. *she has removed her jacket she was wearing earlier*
L. did you review this during your tenure?
B I dont recall.
B is a lot more composed.
L does the report reflect the concerns staff and churchills were bringing to you?
B. Some yes
L thank you
B. I have a comment. I didnt do a deep dive of the teachers caseload, but I was reading the gap. But these gaps fall under the purview of the DEpt of ed for addressing gaps
B. Some yes
L thank you
B. I have a comment. I didnt do a deep dive of the teachers caseload, but I was reading the gap. But these gaps fall under the purview of the DEpt of ed for addressing gaps
L. that's interesting...Bob Gardiner was here yesterday. He said except for ASL curriculum, everything else was the district responsibility.
Dl. I think we need to be more specific
AJ I agree
L. okay. let's go specifics.
Dl. I think we need to be more specific
AJ I agree
L. okay. let's go specifics.
Lawyer is excited to go into these gaps... too giddy...
L . no system to document language and gaps. your responsibility?
B. that is the DHH's responsibility. that's a provincial position.
L. You know district ask the churchills for a communication and info exchange consent?
L . no system to document language and gaps. your responsibility?
B. that is the DHH's responsibility. that's a provincial position.
L. You know district ask the churchills for a communication and info exchange consent?
l. preschool kids, that's dhh?
B. yes
l. the DHH recommendations, that's yours?
B. I don't have provincial responsibility.
L. these standards of practise?
B. I feel that's provincial
L. staff qualifications, district or department?
B. District.
B. yes
l. the DHH recommendations, that's yours?
B. I don't have provincial responsibility.
L. these standards of practise?
B. I feel that's provincial
L. staff qualifications, district or department?
B. District.
B. it reads that no admin support to ensure their skills are updated. District, through HR.
L. Deaf students accessing curriculum?
B. Approval, budget, I have no idea
L. understanding asl proficiency of staff?
B. Awareness of that? wasn't a deep pool of interpreters
L. Deaf students accessing curriculum?
B. Approval, budget, I have no idea
L. understanding asl proficiency of staff?
B. Awareness of that? wasn't a deep pool of interpreters
L. so school?
B. yes
L. so you changed your mind?
B. I agree it should be district.
L. Student support services?
B. Yes. district.
L. changing your mind?
B. *terse voice * It's a lot of reading!
L next gap. interps pool. depart or district?
B. district.
B. yes
L. so you changed your mind?
B. I agree it should be district.
L. Student support services?
B. Yes. district.
L. changing your mind?
B. *terse voice * It's a lot of reading!
L next gap. interps pool. depart or district?
B. district.
B. I thought was mostly department
L. Next gap. No formal assessment of ASL PI
B. District.
L. 11. Curriculum?
b. District
L. asl course for hearing peer staff?
b. local. part of curriculum
Dl. Bob Gardiner clarified that yesterday
L. Next gap. No formal assessment of ASL PI
B. District.
L. 11. Curriculum?
b. District
L. asl course for hearing peer staff?
b. local. part of curriculum
Dl. Bob Gardiner clarified that yesterday
B. I know in 2011 there were local courses, in 2018 there were none.
Aside. Intrep pool, district, but department should provide resources to expand that pool at no cost to district. my opinion
Aside. Intrep pool, district, but department should provide resources to expand that pool at no cost to district. my opinion
L. thank you, let's move on. Concerns raised by DHH. you dont recall?
B. there was no resolution.
l. partial?
b. no, I was aware.
L. so the problem was well known?
b. *rolls eyes* I... was aware of them
B. there was no resolution.
l. partial?
b. no, I was aware.
L. so the problem was well known?
b. *rolls eyes* I... was aware of them
L. you said carter was getting a quality education, you still feel that way?
B. quality education is what we deliver to the best of our abilities with what resources we had. I would hope yes we were delivering under the guidelines we had.
L. guidelines or resources?
B. both
B. quality education is what we deliver to the best of our abilities with what resources we had. I would hope yes we were delivering under the guidelines we had.
L. guidelines or resources?
B. both
L. did you ask for additional resources from dept.
B. I cant make direct request.
L. who?
b. our executive. Ms Warren
L. did they say we can't afford
B. not that I recall. they would had listened to me.
L. DHH raised human rights, were you concerned?
B. yes
B. I cant make direct request.
L. who?
b. our executive. Ms Warren
L. did they say we can't afford
B. not that I recall. they would had listened to me.
L. DHH raised human rights, were you concerned?
B. yes
B. I'm always concerned if we arent delivering services that we should be delivering. Denying someone their human rights
L. did you share their concern?
B. I didnt feel we were violating human rights
L. yes or no.
B. No
L. did you share their concern?
B. I didnt feel we were violating human rights
L. yes or no.
B. No
Aside. No remorse shown. only one was the Kindergarten teacher.
L. You recall your dhh?
B. yes
L. those concerns were in 2011 and 2018. do you know they were the same
B. yes
L. did you take any steps to address from the premier task force or just dhh minutes?
L. You recall your dhh?
B. yes
L. those concerns were in 2011 and 2018. do you know they were the same
B. yes
L. did you take any steps to address from the premier task force or just dhh minutes?
B. my work was responsive to delivering the services and supports we had available to us, under the guidelines we were given.
L. moving on. classroom proposal, asl immersion, in writing. thought?
B. strong advocacy for their students, I appreciated it but I had concerns
L. moving on. classroom proposal, asl immersion, in writing. thought?
B. strong advocacy for their students, I appreciated it but I had concerns
b. my thoughts? I remember thinking the programming was beyond the scope of our roles. I didn't feel we could undertake it properly. We had no one.
L. it was above your pay grade?
b. we needed more personal, people who could do it, develop it
L. it was above your pay grade?
b. we needed more personal, people who could do it, develop it
b. we offered carter the ability to go to another school where he could learn asl?
@kimagreening NO!
AJ: we do not engage with people in the room.
L. moving on
kim is shaking her head in fury
L. one of those 7 students was carter. look at the report
@kimagreening NO!
AJ: we do not engage with people in the room.
L. moving on
kim is shaking her head in fury
L. one of those 7 students was carter. look at the report
L. is it fair to say you rejected it. You shut it down. what's your role?
b. I shared them with Ms. Warren, she had a provincial overview of this. her lens is different from mine. buck didn't stop with me but I was involved in it.
b. I shared them with Ms. Warren, she had a provincial overview of this. her lens is different from mine. buck didn't stop with me but I was involved in it.
L. okay what do you think were the pros and cons
b. *interpreters twiddling their fingers as Bonnie is thinking* it would had come to a table discussion in the planning development
L. would it need resources?
B. we couldnt provide that at the time
b. *interpreters twiddling their fingers as Bonnie is thinking* it would had come to a table discussion in the planning development
L. would it need resources?
B. we couldnt provide that at the time
B. I think it would had gone to the department, due to guidelines.
L. did you assist in having district make the request
b. no i did not make the recommendation
B. this decision wasn't mine, it was a proposal
L. how did you know we didnt resources?
L. did you assist in having district make the request
b. no i did not make the recommendation
B. this decision wasn't mine, it was a proposal
L. how did you know we didnt resources?
B. because we needed someone to develop the program. staff were too demanded. I understand we have the classroom, because we got the appropriate resources.
L. i'm interested in your opinion, 2017-20, Darlene jackson, that's the difference?
L. i'm interested in your opinion, 2017-20, Darlene jackson, that's the difference?
B. yes, she was hired as position director of deaf and hard of hearing?
L. without her it wouldnt had happened?
B. correct.
L. so she could do it because you were incapable?
B. not capable? it wasn't my role. not my job.
L. why was it brought to you then?
L. without her it wouldnt had happened?
B. correct.
L. so she could do it because you were incapable?
B. not capable? it wasn't my role. not my job.
L. why was it brought to you then?
B. at one point, we consulted on DHH. perfect storm, and we had a provincial scope person, Darlene wasn't full time at the department. then districts merged. my words: operating under a provincial authority to our own provincial authority. perfect storm
B. early days, dept could had run with it. I assumed they were aware of this proposal.
L. and the reason you assumed you passed it to your superior?
B. not necessarily. DHH met with Darlene prior to 2014. we merged in 2014. before, department ran well. postmerger nobody ran it
L. and the reason you assumed you passed it to your superior?
B. not necessarily. DHH met with Darlene prior to 2014. we merged in 2014. before, department ran well. postmerger nobody ran it
we need a chart to see who was where when. this is a nightmare juggling this logistical mess of who was in charge! @NicoleMarshNL I agree!
L. so we needed another admin to deal with this?
B. yes
L but you didnt say that at the time. a month ago, fyi. you denied it because it doesnt fit with inclusive model
B. yes
L but you didnt say that at the time. a month ago, fyi. you denied it because it doesnt fit with inclusive model
b. right, it doesnt fit with the inclusive model, school neighbourhood model. true.
B. I didnt think it was appropriate to deliver that.
Aside. Dr. Snoddon already demolished this argument of inclusion model
B. I didnt think it was appropriate to deliver that.
Aside. Dr. Snoddon already demolished this argument of inclusion model
L. your affidavit doesnt say resources was a challenge, just that it wasn't inclusive.
b. they aren't mutually exclusive. I stand by that the classroom model wasn't what we were tasked to deliver
b. they aren't mutually exclusive. I stand by that the classroom model wasn't what we were tasked to deliver
L. you're not answering my question
B. I'm not an expert in giving affidavits.
L. fine. why did you deny the classroom!
Reg Macdonald has a smug smile on his face after the lawyer demanded the answer
B. I'm not an expert in giving affidavits.
L. fine. why did you deny the classroom!
Reg Macdonald has a smug smile on his face after the lawyer demanded the answer
L. quoting you... I was involved in denying it. this inclusive model was not intended to deliver all individual outcomes within the classroom including children with their peer throughout the day
B. the resourcing was not raised by me necessarily. I was delivering the services under the current guidelines, you'd have to ask Ms Warren.
L. so you're saying... you're providing more information now than in your affidivat?
B. yes
L. so you're saying... you're providing more information now than in your affidivat?
B. yes
l. this email, you're talking about the first proposal. you say to your dhh. "hank you, this doesnt follow guideline but i will review, forward their names and school, but model is intensive, we need to use existing resources and inclusive model
L. no reference "we dont have admin or HR to resolve"
B. no because i didnt have access to resources, it was outside of our current model of delivery. was beyond my responsibility. Passed to Ms. Warren.
B. no because i didnt have access to resources, it was outside of our current model of delivery. was beyond my responsibility. Passed to Ms. Warren.
L. really? I put it to you that the concerns raised by DHH and correspondence is nearly identical. info didnt change. concerns dont change do they?
B. what changed is that we hired a dedicated person
l. inclusive model doesnt change?
B. no, but Darlene can navigate around it
B. what changed is that we hired a dedicated person
l. inclusive model doesnt change?
B. no, but Darlene can navigate around it
L. do you have concerns about the inclusive model?
b. clarified... did I stop to question if the model was a problem. ... no. *impassive expression on her face*
b. clarified... did I stop to question if the model was a problem. ... no. *impassive expression on her face*
L. were you aware in your role, that there were exceptionalities were raised for the deaf, addressed by the WFD?
B. No
L. did you feel that it was important to find more info on Deaf ed?
b. no, not my job.
B. No
L. did you feel that it was important to find more info on Deaf ed?
b. no, not my job.
B. I was told to deliver the services following the guidelines.
L. do you feel this is a missed opportunity?
B. it wasn't in my responsibility. looking at WDF not my responsibility. mine is to deliver within the guidelines.
L. *sighs*
L. do you feel this is a missed opportunity?
B. it wasn't in my responsibility. looking at WDF not my responsibility. mine is to deliver within the guidelines.
L. *sighs*
L. did you expect to hear back about the classroom when you passed it on?
B. i wasnt part of the final rationale. I do not feel it was dead on arrival.
L. who then killed it?
B. not me. Ms. Warren she had a role.
L. was it her?
B. It might have been, It wasn't me!
B. i wasnt part of the final rationale. I do not feel it was dead on arrival.
L. who then killed it?
B. not me. Ms. Warren she had a role.
L. was it her?
B. It might have been, It wasn't me!
L. could you had endorsed it?
B. I dont recall the specifics when presenting to Ms Warren. I wasn't part of ideological discussion. could had endorsed? not fully.
B. I dont recall the specifics when presenting to Ms Warren. I wasn't part of ideological discussion. could had endorsed? not fully.
L. are you trying to tell me that you didn't endorse it because the guidelines were limiting?
B. I'm not sure, maybe Ms Warren has a clear memory.
L. could you had gotten it done?
B. no
Adj. why?
B. I'm not sure, maybe Ms Warren has a clear memory.
L. could you had gotten it done?
B. no
Adj. why?
B. I didn't have the staff, the resources, the time to take on an alternate program. *getting frustrated* I DIDN'T HAVE TIME! I didnt have resources, I didn't have staff! I could not do it.
aside. B is shaking
aside. B is shaking
Adj, did you explore alternatives to this proposal?
B. we were focused on carter specifically. we explored looking at other schools, that was as far as we went in 2018
Adj. you look at individual approach?
B. yes
Adj. did he have language delay? that DHHIT couldnt meet it?
B. we were focused on carter specifically. we explored looking at other schools, that was as far as we went in 2018
Adj. you look at individual approach?
B. yes
Adj. did he have language delay? that DHHIT couldnt meet it?
Adj. when you read those words and you had the report on the proposal. I get you couldn't implement, but you looked at another school with another student with ASL. but you didnt do that.
B. Churchills didnt want that, they wanted services in their neighbourhood
B. Churchills didnt want that, they wanted services in their neighbourhood
B. I would had advocated for more DHHIT to provide delivery to DHH students.
ADJ. did you?
B. I mean over the years we got 2 more units. yes.
Adj thank you.
L. you saw the proposal. did you sit on this idea before you rejected? how long was that?
ADJ. did you?
B. I mean over the years we got 2 more units. yes.
Adj thank you.
L. you saw the proposal. did you sit on this idea before you rejected? how long was that?
B. Um, how long before I responded? I don't recall.
L. days, weeks?
B. wasn't long. next DHH meeting I guess, after conferring with superior.
L days?
b. i needed to resolve quickly
l. how about half an hour
L. days, weeks?
B. wasn't long. next DHH meeting I guess, after conferring with superior.
L days?
b. i needed to resolve quickly
l. how about half an hour
B so I saw it and responded next day?
L. nope, hour and a half according to the email time stamps
b. in that time I would had conferred with others.
L. after you rejected. you wrote "we are not embracing this. but should we discuss it?"
L. nope, hour and a half according to the email time stamps
b. in that time I would had conferred with others.
L. after you rejected. you wrote "we are not embracing this. but should we discuss it?"
B. because it didnt fit under the current model of delivery. we had meetings with dept. of ed. I did let them know this proposal existed. I had no problems reconsidering if we were able to.
B. darlene worked quite a bit on this,
L. it does take a long of work to push through the system i'll give you that. did you discuss this with program planning team? was there a concerted effort to prevent teachers from learning about this proposal?
L. it does take a long of work to push through the system i'll give you that. did you discuss this with program planning team? was there a concerted effort to prevent teachers from learning about this proposal?
b. I probably meant that it was premature for the parents to know. without our endorsement.
L. you know the parents would had been in front of the cameras that evening right? if they knew.
L. you know the parents would had been in front of the cameras that evening right? if they knew.
Bonnie is getting upset and frustrated. she has pointed out her guidelines. She expressed regrets for her unprofessional conduct
Aside. I understand Bonnie's frustration. Being held to the restrictions of the guidelines is extremely frustrating, but I don't see regret or remorse.
B. in hindsight it would had been a wonderful program.
L. you say that your main concern was fair access for Carter. what's with the lapses?
B. I was specific with delivering services under my guidelines in front of me.
L. you say that your main concern was fair access for Carter. what's with the lapses?
B. I was specific with delivering services under my guidelines in front of me.
it's 2.20. Are we going late? @NLhumanrights or are witnesses moved to a later day?
B. Summary: we didn't have the time or the resources to go beyond the guidelines
L. so the 9 deaf students were not a priority?
B. No, they had significant needs, we gave them what we could.
L. so the 9 deaf students were not a priority?
B. No, they had significant needs, we gave them what we could.
Moved to the DL now.
DL no questions
Adj. we've used up your time, but I got questions. when you got the proposal, i get it's outside the norm, and your understanding of the model. why
B: we didn't have qualified staff or resources
DL no questions
Adj. we've used up your time, but I got questions. when you got the proposal, i get it's outside the norm, and your understanding of the model. why
B: we didn't have qualified staff or resources
Adj. the students get these specific resources. even with all of these support, these students are NOT able to get the regular curriculum,
-aside can hear crying and Bonnie is upset, she isnt the one crying though
-aside can hear crying and Bonnie is upset, she isnt the one crying though
B: I'm sorry I'm more familiar with Carter than the other children. I would ask to review, after seeing the inability to access, but to jump to the classroom was not the intention. we needed to work up to find solutions according to our resources, to meet their needs
B. teachers are pointing out gaps. Our job at the district would be to look closely at their programming, where was the gap? is it asl? do they need that? I dont feel comfortable without knowing that.
Adj. did you conduct an interview to assess carter's ongoing needs? (regarding program outcome)
B. yes, we were looking at meeting his outcomes. *she's red faced and trying not to cry*
we read the anecdotal report, ms mcdoanld said that he was making progress.
B. yes, we were looking at meeting his outcomes. *she's red faced and trying not to cry*
we read the anecdotal report, ms mcdoanld said that he was making progress.
Apologies. I'm getting emails and texts, that's being disruptive of people demanding answers regarding issues around here. I'm trying to focus on this and hopefully I've told them I'll answer later
B. the system wasn't ready to provide appropriate services for Carter. It was an ongoing problem. I feel that we were coming closer to meeting Carter's needs.
B. I know that a deaf deficient in language is different than children coming to school with low language. having no language is quite different, but we use those formative years to provide support in a positive way
Bonnie is now crying.
B. in other words, it is not unusual for us to have children performing well under the Kindergarten curriculum. we would use this time to look for red flags.
Aside. red flags were set up when Carter was 2 and a half.
B. in other words, it is not unusual for us to have children performing well under the Kindergarten curriculum. we would use this time to look for red flags.
Aside. red flags were set up when Carter was 2 and a half.
Other aside. Teachers in Ontario express frustrations that they have to wait until grade 3 in many cases to be able to identify red flags even in inclusive classrooms
ADj, what changes did you make?
B. we have a director of DHH services
Adj. their role?
B. high level of expertise. Ms Jackson can explain better. she's focused entirely on DHH programming.
Aside. Wonder if APD is included in that programming
B. we have a director of DHH services
Adj. their role?
B. high level of expertise. Ms Jackson can explain better. she's focused entirely on DHH programming.
Aside. Wonder if APD is included in that programming
B. the model may not be the best model to meet their exceptionality. but it seems that 2 years, they are successful. I believe that it's the dedicated leadership focused specifically on that that made it successful
Adj. what would you recommend?
b. more staff, improve the pool of the DHH pool. better awareness, and focus on the continued gaps.
Adj. but jackson is not in that position until after the proposal. but without that proposal, the staff wasn't made yet the proposal was
b. more staff, improve the pool of the DHH pool. better awareness, and focus on the continued gaps.
Adj. but jackson is not in that position until after the proposal. but without that proposal, the staff wasn't made yet the proposal was
B. someone would discuss with me and we would pursue it
aj, but you said that earlier, that you couldnt.
b. I'm not sure how i phrased it. Ms. warren can tell? I wasn't thinking outside the box. I wasn't comfortable advocating, nor did I have the time or resources
aj, but you said that earlier, that you couldnt.
b. I'm not sure how i phrased it. Ms. warren can tell? I wasn't thinking outside the box. I wasn't comfortable advocating, nor did I have the time or resources
B. I wasn't ready to go outside the box, outside the guidelines to say yes we can support this, again we were doing the best we could with the model of delivery we had.
B. I know challenges have transportation, interpreting, programming, small pool of students
Aside. 1 in 5 have hearing loss
1 in 10 could use a hearing aid
1 in 100 need one
1 in 1000 require ASL
Aside. 1 in 5 have hearing loss
1 in 10 could use a hearing aid
1 in 100 need one
1 in 1000 require ASL
Adj. resources. teachers?
b. 2 dhh teachers, on roster, need to adjust caseload. if we find more we hire for that pool
adj. so kids are high need, spread out. so instead of 6 spread out, you'd put them together?
B. right, that's the proposal
Aj expand benefits
b. 2 dhh teachers, on roster, need to adjust caseload. if we find more we hire for that pool
adj. so kids are high need, spread out. so instead of 6 spread out, you'd put them together?
B. right, that's the proposal
Aj expand benefits
B. together, less staff needed, can focus on programming, can support better day to day, could it had happened before? I wouldn't say it couldn't, but at my level we were working with the resources we had.
Adj. was there a physical space possible?
B. yes, can find space at a school, not sure which one but i dont think it mattered where it was, as long as the space could be provided.
B. yes, can find space at a school, not sure which one but i dont think it mattered where it was, as long as the space could be provided.
B. the classroom shouldnt had taken that long but it did.
Adj. any more questions? no. we are done with B.
B: are there more proceedings?
Adj yes. break? 5 minutes break. return at 3 pm Newfoundland
Adj. any more questions? no. we are done with B.
B: are there more proceedings?
Adj yes. break? 5 minutes break. return at 3 pm Newfoundland
Back on the record.
this will be a lot to decompress
next witness is Ms. Churchill. she was supposed to be the 4th witness but we've gone over the limit. Elizabeth Churchill. Referred to as E.
this will be a lot to decompress
next witness is Ms. Churchill. she was supposed to be the 4th witness but we've gone over the limit. Elizabeth Churchill. Referred to as E.
we are required to exit at 5 pm Eastern.
E is the former assistant deputy minister, education I assume.
L. have you seen any of this,
E. yes, 10 15 minutes, from home, I saw on twitter. Bob Gardiner
(me... oops)
L. well you're not supposed to watch. but we'll continue
E is the former assistant deputy minister, education I assume.
L. have you seen any of this,
E. yes, 10 15 minutes, from home, I saw on twitter. Bob Gardiner
(me... oops)
L. well you're not supposed to watch. but we'll continue
L. I gotta clarify. did you discuss this? with bob?
E. no, havent spoken to bob in years
L. he's retired. What's your role?
E. in 2017 to 2019, i was ADM
L. yes reporting to Bob?
E. yes
L. with other ADM?
E. yes
E. no, havent spoken to bob in years
L. he's retired. What's your role?
E. in 2017 to 2019, i was ADM
L. yes reporting to Bob?
E. yes
L. with other ADM?
E. yes
L. who were you under?
E. Minister Kirby, Hawkins.
L. okay, you are a principal. got any background of deaf ed? asl? special needs?
E. no
L. Trying to understand your role, fyi dept of ed is not part of this proceeding, I'm trying to understand how reports are exchanged
E. Minister Kirby, Hawkins.
L. okay, you are a principal. got any background of deaf ed? asl? special needs?
E. no
L. Trying to understand your role, fyi dept of ed is not part of this proceeding, I'm trying to understand how reports are exchanged
L. here's the report, on deaf ed and its issues, bob says he didnt see this. why would the dept do this report, but nobody seems to know this report. what happens when the report is written, where does i go? what?
E. I dont know
E. I dont know
L. do you find this familiar?
E. No. I knew of the report but never saw the report or its details
L. so you never asked as ADM for this?
E. No
L. Dept of Ed involved in this file. were you the only ADM assigned to this?
E. I ... don't think so. maybe adm before me?
E. No. I knew of the report but never saw the report or its details
L. so you never asked as ADM for this?
E. No
L. Dept of Ed involved in this file. were you the only ADM assigned to this?
E. I ... don't think so. maybe adm before me?
L. You were involved, that's how we met. no other ADM on the churchill file?
e. not that I know of
l. any guidelines, each project for deaf ed to be taken and worked on, would you had known?
e. yes
*gasps in the background*
e. not that I know of
l. any guidelines, each project for deaf ed to be taken and worked on, would you had known?
e. yes
*gasps in the background*
L. sorry for silence, just going past questions i've already asked. you know what the inclusive model?
E. yes. I knew when I was principal
L. you know that this model means deaf kids are placed in a class by themselves, no peers in their language. you know this?
E. Yes
E. yes. I knew when I was principal
L. you know that this model means deaf kids are placed in a class by themselves, no peers in their language. you know this?
E. Yes
L. and this model being delivered for exceptionalities, experts have said this model destroys their self-esteem
e. we want kids to feel they belong, they're safe
l. Inclusive model means carter unable to communicate
E. I can't comment, that's individual
e. we want kids to feel they belong, they're safe
l. Inclusive model means carter unable to communicate
E. I can't comment, that's individual
@NLhumanrights can Kyle slow down please?
L. would you agree that social interaction is important
e. yes
l. interpreters would limit the social need right?
E. i'm not an expert so I cant answer
L. got to be careful, settlement confidentiality, so i get it
e. yes
l. interpreters would limit the social need right?
E. i'm not an expert so I cant answer
L. got to be careful, settlement confidentiality, so i get it
E yes I knew about the super powers program.
L. let's talk about it, what did the district say about it
e. i dont recall them coming to me, I heard it somewhere - aside... media probably.
L. let's talk about it, what did the district say about it
e. i dont recall them coming to me, I heard it somewhere - aside... media probably.
L. did you know that the district refused to highlight it and the department had to speak to the district
e. I knew about concerns but did not directly approach about it
aside. who had concerns about super program? This is the first I've heard, someone complained to district?
e. I knew about concerns but did not directly approach about it
aside. who had concerns about super program? This is the first I've heard, someone complained to district?
Bonnie was concerned about the asl immersion. I don't recall her talking about Super program... I'm curious now...
L. let's talk about premier task force on special ed.
E. yes, inclusive, together now is the time report, action plan to boost the inclusive mode.
L. what were the problems with the IM that was hoped to be addressed?
E. yes, inclusive, together now is the time report, action plan to boost the inclusive mode.
L. what were the problems with the IM that was hoped to be addressed?
E. Professional learning, career education, meat of the doc is in the chapters, about inclusion, not sure of order, education, mental health, well being were key. extensive review with the public.
l. 82 recommendations, did you know that not one addressed deaf ed in mainstream
e. not specifically. inclusive section addressed inclusivity not deaf education, autism, no specific reference
e. not specifically. inclusive section addressed inclusivity not deaf education, autism, no specific reference
L. well, Deaf ed has a different exceptionality, it cant be fairly easily integrated. IM is harsh or inappropriate for deaf. do you feel that should had been a standalone part of the report?
E. Different children have different needs, I cant answer, one over another group
E. Different children have different needs, I cant answer, one over another group
L. bonnie said she had proposal on her desk, about asl immersion, were you aware of those proposals as ADM?
e. Not to my knowledge
L. who would had known in your dept?
e. not another adm.
l. who then?
E. directors student services, managers. not the ADM
e. Not to my knowledge
L. who would had known in your dept?
e. not another adm.
l. who then?
E. directors student services, managers. not the ADM
L. can it be elevated to adm?
E. yes,
L. so there's a few lines of officals between you and woodland. did anyone approach the dept for additional resources for ASL deaf ed?
E. not to my knowledge.
L you're the most appropriate person to ask about this proposal?
E. Yes
E. yes,
L. so there's a few lines of officals between you and woodland. did anyone approach the dept for additional resources for ASL deaf ed?
E. not to my knowledge.
L you're the most appropriate person to ask about this proposal?
E. Yes
E. not on bussing but the class yes.
L. you got an email presentation from Darlene,
E. I dont recall the email, but yes I spoke with Darlene on it.
l. here's the email. dec 2018. APEA database. you know that proposal?
E. i know of it, not involved
L. you got an email presentation from Darlene,
E. I dont recall the email, but yes I spoke with Darlene on it.
l. here's the email. dec 2018. APEA database. you know that proposal?
E. i know of it, not involved
L. lots of this is redacted. 11 students use intensive asl in the metro area. asl needed at early age, not in place. did you see this?
e. This is delivery, so district responsibility.
L. report says students have isolation.
E. District to address.
e. This is delivery, so district responsibility.
L. report says students have isolation.
E. District to address.
L. proficiency of ASL, district or department?
E. District, they hire.
L, why were you given this report? district problem not yours.
e. I asked darlene to share the presentation. I think. I needed district numbers not individual
E. District, they hire.
L, why were you given this report? district problem not yours.
e. I asked darlene to share the presentation. I think. I needed district numbers not individual
L. I guess in 2011 this came up. then 17,18,19. Parents and DHH raising this issue. district and dept knew about these concerns. who is expected to resolve?
E. It goes both ways. we share responsibilities. we need to work together. No one person direct
E. It goes both ways. we share responsibilities. we need to work together. No one person direct
L. So the district doesnt ask help, you cant help if they dont ask?
E. true
L as ADM you didnt get those concerns
E. they were not brought forward to me
L, bonnie talks about asl immersion model. she didn't like it because it prohibits taking kids out of their local school
E. true
L as ADM you didnt get those concerns
E. they were not brought forward to me
L, bonnie talks about asl immersion model. she didn't like it because it prohibits taking kids out of their local school
L. the proposal would had defied the inclusion model. she couldn't approve outside the model's guidelines. was the IE model doctrine that couldn't be departed from
e. Inclusive is different for each person. it's done on needs.
e. Inclusive is different for each person. it's done on needs.
L. so we could depart from the doctrine if it means we had a better way to include, going outside the local area
e. Yes. it's not a doctrine.
e. Yes. it's not a doctrine.
L. what if the district comes to the department, with a problem, we dont want to fix this. does the department tell them to change their priorities?
E. there would be a conversation. I dont think we would say "you're wrong." we would talk about it
E. there would be a conversation. I dont think we would say "you're wrong." we would talk about it
L. one of the trends we see from the doc of the proposal, one factor is that the services are reflected by how strong the parents advocate. what role do you see in this?
E. in general parents play an important role. so yes. key factor
E. in general parents play an important role. so yes. key factor
L. thank you, done.
Adj. DL?
no question.
Adj. thank you, you're released. adjourned to tomor... sorry, tuesday 9 am. change in schedule?
l. no change same schedule for tuesday.
Adj, and the witnesses?
dl, L, friday morning.
Adj. DL?
no question.
Adj. thank you, you're released. adjourned to tomor... sorry, tuesday 9 am. change in schedule?
l. no change same schedule for tuesday.
Adj, and the witnesses?
dl, L, friday morning.
And we're done for Labour weekend. I need time to decompress but Elizabeth's testimony states that the district could had adjusted the guidelines based on individual needs. Gardiner said the department would had tried to find more money for district, if asked.
Reviewing. Wow. So many spelling errors. I had no idea I was typing so fast. Or posted so much. 🤣😳
Closing thoughts on Elizabeth the assistant Deputy minister.
1. The department absolutely burned the district. It isn't the department role to ensure children needs are met. That's the district.
2. When the department found out that the district failed so badly they cut ties 1/6
1. The department absolutely burned the district. It isn't the department role to ensure children needs are met. That's the district.
2. When the department found out that the district failed so badly they cut ties 1/6
3. I'm talking politically when cut ties. They got lawyers and started a merger process. Ministries of education don't like to take direct control of school boards unless there was a fundamental failure of the board.
4. The department said nobody fired. But a lot of retirements
4. The department said nobody fired. But a lot of retirements
5. So clearly the department is not happy with the district. But the department has its own share. Their review of special needs paid little attention to the exceptionally that comes with Deaf education and did not ensure that districts understood the law
6. This can be traced back to the Milan conference of 1880. Look it up. But audism and an eugenics concept that deafness can be trained or bred out was prevalent.
7. Audism (a form of discrimination) destroyed deaf children in newfoundland and Labrador.
7. Audism (a form of discrimination) destroyed deaf children in newfoundland and Labrador.
8. 7 children were identified as needing asl. It is estimated that one in ten children need assistance with hearing. Even if it was conservative it's still 1 in 20. How many children are falling behind in newfoundland because they struggle to hear?
9. Carter's case forced the district to hire a director solely for Deaf education. But we've known for decades that Deaf education is different from special needs. why did it take 10 years since the law passed until such a position was made?
10. So many lives have been destroyed
10. So many lives have been destroyed
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