Thread by @tribunaltweets

Evidence will continue today in Mermaids v LGB Alliance & the Charity Commission. Resuming at 10 am. Witnesses expected today: John Nicolson, MP; Belinda Bell, chair of trustees of Mermaids.
Catch up on live tweet threads here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/mermaids-vs-…

Abbreviations:
J - Judge Lynn Griffin, Presiding Judge,
AJ - Judge Joe Neville, Assistant to Judge
MG - Michael Gibbon KC, Counsel for Mermaids
KM - Karon Monaghan KC - Counsel for LGB Alliance
AR - Akua Reindorf, Assistant to KM
IS - Iain Steele, Charity Commission counsel

Witnesses (not necessarily today)
JN - John Nicolson MP, Member of Parliament for Ochil and South Perthshire and Deputy Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Global LGBT+ Rights.
BB - Dr Belinda Bell Chair of trustees of Mermaids.

Witnesses (cont) (not necessarily today)
PR - Paul Roberts OBE, CEO of LGBT Consortium
BJ - Beverley Jackson, Co-founder and trustee of LGBA
KH - Kate Harris, Co-founder and trustee of LGBA.
EG - Eileen Gallagher OBE, Chair of trustees of LGBA, since May 2021.

Other frequent abbreviations:
WS - witness statement
EQ - Equality Act 2010
MM - Mermaids
CC - Charity Commission
LGBA - LGB Alliance

Observation: the IT team is in the court room in an effort to improve technology performance.

Judges have entered.
J - any preliminary matters?
None.
J - checking the link, reminding observers, cameras off, microphones muted, permission to live tweet but must be done appropriately. Directions remain in force.

MG - calls JN to the witness chair. Good morning, points out the bundles on the desk, requests him to take out Bundle 1, turn to tab 23. Find witness statement
JN - (does so)
JN - confirms his signature, recognises statement. Happy to adopt as evidence without change.

KM - calls attention to iPad and annotated documents.
J - asks JN to put materials to one side.
JN - MP, member of SNP
KM - proposed reforms of GRA in Scotland

KM - contents of bill GRA reform, applies to Scotland only
JN - yes
KM - proposes to relax process of obtaining a GRC
JN - yes
KM - outlining the acquisition of a GRC, changes a persons sex for all purposes
JN - confirms
KM - current conditions; gender dysphoria,

KM - you've read the original act so that you could comment on proposed changes?
JN - I have
KM - back to conditions, gender dysphoria, living in acquired gender
JN - they have been legally accessing services in their acquired gender under the law

KM - continues outlining requirements.
J - deals with someone on the link who has their camera on.
KM - continues with requirements.
JN - makes affirmative noises.
KM - outlining the panel, fairly stringent requirements
Now going on to proposed reforms.

KM - may apply for a GRC if 16,
JN - you can vote in Scotland at 16 that is the motivation
The use of the word child is 'emotive' and that person has adult responsibilities.
KM - Legally 'child'
JN - You would agree that a child is not allowed to vote
KM - I'm not here to

answer your questions.
JN - repeats point. Then can we agree 'young adult'.
KM - I will say child.
JN - i will say young adult.
KM - outlining proposed changes and communication requirement and reflection period of 3 months
JN - yes I believe that is correct

KM - brief discussion of interim vs full GRC (to do with persons who are married)
KM - prepare a declaration, born in Scotland, lived in your acquired gender for 3 months, intend to live in acquired gender. That is all. That is a fundamental change is it not?

JN - the objective is to make it easier and less intrusive.
KM - and highly controversial
JN - highly controversial to those who oppose it. The Tribunal will know that it is similar to those enacted in other jurisdictions. Mentions ALBA, with low vote totals etc.

(Struggling to keep up with JN responses to KM questions)
JN - explains his role on parliament committee, and overwhelming support for LGBTQ persons.
KM - asks JN to focus on questions and answer them, interrupting JN to do so.
KM - (back to question)

KM - asking the question again, 'it is a model that is usually called self id or self declaration'
JN - yes
KM - it sets the bar lower for changing sex
JN - lower is an emotive word. Less intrusive is better.
KM - the concern is that it will erode sex based rights.

JN - I've read on Twitter that's their opinion.
KM - explains the EA and ability to exclude those with a GRC, we won't agree on the law
JN - agrees
KM - when a person does not have a GRC they can be excluded from a single sex service with a lower bar. Do you understand that?

JN - I understand that those without a GRC can be excluded.
KM - so getting a GRC is an important thing.
JN - It is such an important thing for someone who is born into the wrong body, that's why it is such an important progressive piece of legislation.

KM - perhaps I will have to take you to what MM and the DoE say about the wrong body narrative.
JN - what do you mean narrative. It is their lived experienced.
KM - do you understand the view of LGBA is that sex matters and that this reform will undermine sex based rights.

JN - I know that LGBA has expressed extreme views and tweeted abuse at me, calling me a pedophile and a rapist enabler.
KM - I do not believe there is one piece of evidence before the tribunal that supports that.
JN - of course they have, and it is a minority view.

KM - you understand that individuals are entitled to campaign and comment on matters in the public domain.
JN - refers to section 28 period, abuse in public, free speech.
KM - so I take it you agree that members of the public and civil society are allowed to comment.

KM - goes to 'press pause' campaign. And JN witness statement. Aggressive activism of LGBA. Please look at 'press pause' materials. Did you look at this document before making your witness statement?
JN - yes I did.
KM - you know that this is a response to a consultation

that was designed to elicit comment. Please listen to the question and respond.
JN - refers to complete package of LGBA.
J - instructs JN to listen to and respond to the questions. Please look at the specific document as requested by KM.
MG - please allow him to answer

in his own way.
KM - referring again to 'press pause' document. Explains response to consultation and simple guide to help others respond. Suggests rejecting bill to be able to discuss the matter completely.
JN - agrees.
KM - perfectly reasonable?
JN - no I disagree.

KM - sorry, I meant, it is reasonable for them to express this view.
JN - yes, but some of things they express in this document are expressly false. Especially 'danger to children'.
KM - I will come on to that. 'Believe in respectful polite debate'. Nothing problematic there?

JN - except its a very coy statement and it runs counter to how they are campaigning.
KM - are you saying there are hidden messages?
JN - they don't want their supporters submissions to be rejected because they are aggressive
KM - next page sets out current position.

JN - implies that people are whimsical in their decision to change their gender,
KM - says it will be much easier and become automatic
JN - you say easier but it is incredibly traumatic to change your gender.
KM - and access risk, with a GRC you can access spaces.

JN - suggests that trans people are predators who will change their gender to access women's spaces. No one checks anyone gender before accessing women's services such as toilets.
KM - you use as your example a man access a woman's service.
JN - most sexual abuse and violence

KM - attempting to move on.
JN - citing that each paragraph is problematic. Each paragraph is problematic.
KM - lets look at danger to children. The reason that LGBA is concerned is that many more children are identifying as trans, and easy to find themselves on a pathway

KM - you understand there are so many more children identifying as trans. You understand that concern?
JN - more children identifying as gay, more as trans, it's easier to talk about it now.
KM - do you understand that it's reasonable for them to be concerned about that?

JN - refers to homophobic statements and abuse he receives and there are always bad faith actors.
KM - discussing Cass Review.
JN - it seems dramatic because it's expressed as a percentage but its not that big in number.
KM - is it reasonable to want to explore this societal

phenomena?
JN - I know that LGBA says this.
KM - quotes 30% of boys identify as heterosexual, and 25% of girls heterosexual presenting to GIDS. Attracted to members of the same sex. Do you understand.
JN - I know what a lesbian is.
KM - I take nothing for granted.

JN - I'm a gay man. I know this.
KM - can you see that this is a proper matter for the LGBA to be concerned with?
JN - I thought they are a charity, we have not yet discussed any charitable activity
KM - are you agreeing with me or not?

JN - they say they are concerned with this.
KM - do you agree that they have expressed their views in moderate non-aggressive terms?
JN - it is coyly expressed, I think it is passive aggressive and implies that trans people are predatory.

KM - do you agree that sex based rights are at risk?
JN - and I'm going to completely disagree.
KM - a male that gets a GRC, and is a heterosexual, does that make that person a lesbian?

JN - I just do not understand this obsession with people's genitalia, LGBA appears to think about nothing else from the moment they get up in the morning until they go to bed at night.
KM - it will destroy same sex rights if sex becomes something you simply declare.

JN - you are a lesbian because you declare yourself one. No one has to inspect you and confirm you are a lesbian. All the of the lesbians in my committee agree, this will not diminish them.
KM - referring to the section on 'children should be happy in their own bodies'.

JN - interrupts.
KM - I have not asked you a question.
(back and forth)
KM - you are objecting to the use of the term of epidemic?
JN - it is a negative thing, implies that it is terrible and bad.
KM - a 4000% increase in referrals to a health service

is justifiably called an epidemic.
JN - I disagree, it's a terribly negative connotation.
KM - referring to advertisement evidencing 'aggression' around GRC reform. Describes proposed changes, are these accurate.
JN - We've gone round the houses on this.

JN - Rape Crisis Scotland, experts in this area, support this. Goes on.
KM - do you accept that changes in legislation should be debated and discussed in the public domain.
JN - 'this will allow predatory men', straight out of the Section 28 playbook, debate needs to be

respectful, truthful and not hurtful.
KM - you accept that this is discussing men, all men, not gay men.
JN - men don't need a GRC to access women's spaces and they do it now. Nobody in my experience in my experience in goes to M&S and is asked to prove their gender.

KM - you understand why there are women only spaces?
JN - I understand that lots of women do not want to be naked in front of men in public spaces.
KM - do you respect that ?
JN - I have always and will always respect that.
KM - do you understand that women are concerned

that predatory men will use a GRC in order to access women's spaces?
JN - Predatory men is scare mongering and no evidence from other jurisdictions that this is happening, there is no 'epidemic'.
KM - do you respect the views of women who worry about this?
JN - I always

respect minority views.
KM - do you respect their concerns?
JN - yes.
KM - this advertisement is not aggressive and uses measured terms.
JN - it dogwhistles aggression towards trans people and LGBA are whipping up fear and trepidation. Scaremongering, deeply offensive.

JN - they are linking predators to transpeople, that is prejudicial.
KM - they are linking men to predators.
JN - prejudicial to transpeople.
KM - looking at these documents to see if we see anything aggressive. Making observations about sport.

hospitals, GIDS and the impact of maligning lesbians who are concerned about this as transphobic. KM you profoundly disagree with LGBA and there is nothing problematic about that.
JN - full of false statements, untruths, scaremongering, trans people do not simply grow up to be

gay.
KM - Have you read the Cass Review?
JN - I have read a short summary.
KM - asking for a break.
JN - I have other duties, we are 90 minutes in and we haven't yet discussed their charitable duties.
KM - if the witness would answer the question we could finish more quickly

Judge - we will take a short break.
Court rises, back in approximately 15 minutes.

KM - I have been able to edit my x-exam. I would like to take you to one last point on the way in which the bill is proceeding. A letter from chair of EHRC to Shona Robinson. Set out their position on proposed reforms.
Some have expressed concerns on changing criteria.

Extends from smaller group to wider group. Do you see that the concerns of LGBA are shared by others?
JN - they are shared by a few, and many of those who are anti-gay have enthusiastically adopted the position of LGBA.
KM - are you accusing the EHRC and the others who are

concerned with all being homophobic?
JN - the EHRC under the new regime is more controversial.
KM - quoting from letter, EHRC current framework provides sufficient protection to all
JN - these are Baroness Faulkner's views. I understand that her predecessor would disagree.

KM - you understand that she is writing on behalf of the board, not her personal views.
JN - the previous board would have had a different view.
KM - referring to assertion of extensive political campaigning of LGBA. Is that the right place for them to go?
JN - yes, but they

should be doing some charitable work as well. They are only doing lobbying. I have yet to see an example of their charitable works.
KM - we will hear about that when they give their evidence so you don't need to worry about that. Now reviewing the correspondence. You refer to

their lobbying - are these appropriate avenues to be lobbying.
JN - yes, but they need to be doing some charitable people. Kemi Badenoch in particular was not an appropriate person to be holding the Equality brief, given her gay rights voting record.

KM - but they are the appropriate offices and departments to be lobbying,
JN - yes.
KM - going on to ask about JN's tweets and evidence that LGBA attacks and denigrates others on social media. Tweet sent by JN on 15 April, linking a documentary, commending it

JN - yes a constituent
KM - goes on to a response from JN that refers to LGBA as sinister.
JN - on that night I got a deluge of abuse from supporters of LGBA and many DMs.
KM - go back to the question, that was the first engagement with LGBA.

JN - they whip up their supporters and hide behind them, it's no conspiracy, you can search Twitter and find it.
KM - you describe a group you have had no engagement with at all as 'sinister', at 1 am.
JN - perfectly seemly to tweet this. The stuff that LGBA then tweets

abuse at me. One of their directors has continued obsessively tweeting about me. I have never commented on an individual at LGBA. They impersonated a member of parliament.
KM - That is all I have.
J - any questions from IS.

IS - you said that 20% of LGBA supporters are lesbians.
What is your evidence of that.
JN - referring to previous case where Stonewall won, saying that evidence showed only 20% of members are lesbians, have been thrown off two largest fund raising platforms, many off shore

followers, tiny accounts.
IS - goes back to campaign documents. Which did you think were worse?
JN - press pause was obviously seen by LGBA as too benign. So they went on to 'green light to predators' to get people to read the article.

The idea that the FM of Scotland a life long feminist with a gender balanced cabinet would do anything to harm women and children is laughable.
IS - anything other comments?
JN - designed to elicit fear, scare women and children, straight from the Clause 28 playbook.

IS - no further questions.
J - excuses JN. Are we ready for the next witness?
Next witness takes the witness chair.
IS - put anything unnecessary away. Keep Volume 1, turn to tab 22,

Witness is Dr. Belinda Bell, chair of Mermaids.
(request for BB to speak up, attempting to adjust microphones)
BB - perhaps I could adopt a tone like John.
Murmur from spectators.
J - perhaps slightly louder volume. Sound check,
satisfactory.

KM - MM your focus is on children with gender identity issues.
BB - yes
KM - I'm not being critical but just that you are not concerned with children who are black or disabled, etc. You would refer them on to another service if no gender component.

BB I would be surprised if child approached us if they didn't have a gender component to their issues.
KM - referring to cisgender binary framework, do I understand that as biological sex male and female.
BB - yes.
KM - many see their gender as different from their sex.

BB - yes, they may see their gender as different to their sex.
KM - so sex and gender are different
BB - yes. Gender is somewhat culturally and socially constructed.
KM - it's not something we're born with it is something that it is overlaid on our sex

BB - I'm not transgender so it's hard for me to say. You are reducing sex to genitals, boys have penises and girls have vaginas. I'm not sure that is true. Raises intersex.
KM - a vanishingly small number.
BB - I don't have the data but I would dispute that assertion.

KM - I am putting these questions to you because you are Mermaids witness. Have we agreed that sex and gender are different things?
BB - yes I believe we can agree on that.
KM - let's discuss gender dysphoria. The easiest way to deal with it is through the Cass Review.

I'm sure you're aware of the Cass Review. Undertaken by NHS England, there has been an interim report by Dr. Cass.
BB - just to be absolutely clear, I am not a medical doctor.
KM - obviously
BB - the Cass Review is not in MM area. We do not do medical stuff, we don't treat

dysphoria.
KM - MM supports youth with dysphoria, many of your participants are either referred to GIDS, or are on a medical pathway.
BB - again, we are not a medical organisation.
KM - Dr Cass criticisms of GIDS.
BB - many critical of GIDS inability to serve patients.

KM - Cass critical of many of the concepts, not so much the service capacity. Cass is exploring what gender dysphoria means. I'm exploring this because you said that is one of your areas of focus.
BB - some of our children have gender identity issues, some may have dysphoria.

KM - directing BB to witness statement, gender dysphoria is one of most important area of focus.
BB - yes.
KM - reading out comments and concerns from interim Cass Review, a clinician may have a position and that impacts their approach.
BB - you said believe, it is position.

Belief is a loaded word.
KM - now talking about discussion of gender dysphoria and how it may close down belief.
BB - I know that children and young people have reported a clinician lottery.
KM - have you read the review?
BB - yes, it is only an interim report but she appears

to be doing great work.
KM - having read the review does it give you cause for concern.
BB - we don't give medical advice, we provide information about the NHS clinical pathway. If that changes we will change our advice.
KM - refers to Cass observation of

of increased complexity of presentation including neuro-divergent and complex mental health conditions. References 4000% increase in girls, largest cohort presently
BB - its a big percentage but overall tiny numbers.
KM - 70% of girls at GIDS are not straight.

BB - our data says that most people who go through transition are not straight at the end.
KM - are these girls going through transition to avoid homophobia or societal pressure?
BB - that idea is absolutely laughable that someone would go through transition to avoid that.

(homophobia, etc,)
KM - back to Cass, from the point of entry to GIDS there appears to an affirmative non-exploratory approach, perhaps encouraged by parental or child expectation.
BB - do you want me to comment?
KM - yes, what is an affirmative non-exploratory approach.

BB - you're overlooking the end of that sentence, the delay is 2, 3 ,4 years. And the degree to be exploratory may be influenced by the delay and time spent living in their acquired gender after social transition.
KM - refers to non-standard approach, lack of mental health

services.
BB - no one was under any illusion that GIDS was adequate that's why we welcome the review.
KM - are you not concerned that particular cohorts of children are presenting to GIDS? As the chair of MM are you not concerned or interested in this?

BB - I reiterate - we do not provide health care advice, but yes, it should be explored.
KM - going through Cass criticisms, asking do you agree?
BB - I agree but I don't have direct experience, I am relying on Cass.
KM - we are agreeing so far, about Dr Cass's review

about a lack of data, follow up, etc.
BB - I'm not disagreeing with Cass.
KM - is it right to be concerned about these things.
BB - there is limited data on detransition and desistance. Reasons that it is difficult to get that data.
Don't want to go back to clinicians.

Also, we deal with kids, detransition and desistance are different when they may not have had physical interventions. They may be exploring and may identify as non-binary.
KM - we don't know how many there are?
BB - yes, it's a hard area to get data.

KM - now on gaps in evidence base on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. Are you aware of that?
BB - I know Dr Cass said there is a lack of research on these children in the UK but there is evidence elsewhere.
KM - has Dr Cass overlooked research.
BB - no.

KM - is it reasonable to be concerned about this treatment given this lack of data?
BB - yes a parent might be concerned about puberty blockers but also about a child about to undergo 'wrong' puberty.
KM - so LGBA has an evidence base to be concerned about the lack of evidence?

BB - we don't give health care advice, and I would expect that given the difficulty in this area, any charity would be very careful in focusing on this area and would need deep specialism.
KM - now moving on to consequences (lack of fertility) and (stunted penile growth)

BB - are you asking if I have a comment?
KM - are you saying that you have no experience and no concern with the treatment pathway etc that children are put on? If so, I can stop my questions and ask the Tribunal to read the review.
BB - MM meets with GIDS about once a year

but I can't tell what point is appropriate to prescribe puberty blockers.
KM - are you accepting that LGBA has an evidentiary basis for their concern about the treatment of dysphoric youth.
BB - explains that puberty blockers are a pause button, and once off, puberty starts.

KM - the fact that a child goes on to x-sex hormones is not that they were properly diagnosed and making progress but that they were improperly diagnosed and locked into a treatment pathway.
BB - I don't think that a reasonable or only interpretation of what Dr Cass is saying.

KM - back to Cass Review, personal positions of clinicians impacts how they treat patients.
BB - reading, what is the question
KM - there are differences in view, beliefs in gender dysphoria, those views are polarised and impact how treatment.

BB - what it's actually saying is that expectations of clinical pathways might be different, of course them might be different.
KM - beliefs about gender ideology is affecting in some cases at least treatment decisions and treatment options. And that is problematic?

BB - I don't know if that's the case, our beliefs impact how we see the world and how we interact with it.
KM - suggesting that questioning why so many girls are on this pathway is a worthy area of inquiry for LGBA.
BB - I think it's a specialised niche area and too

for a general interest gay charity.
KM - I will ask again, do you disagree that it is unreasonable for an LGBA charity to worry about what is happening to lesbian girls?
BB - it is too specialised and technical for them.
KM & BB discussing what areas BB might be able to comment

on. BB - any thing I say in my witness statement. I will comment on.
Court rises for lunch.
BB will continue after lunch.

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