Thread by @esme_saysno

#IStandWithAmyHamm

The BCCNM disciplinary hearing of @preta_6 continues with Barbara Findlay's questioning of Greta Bauer.

Findlay opens with a Q re: Dr. Miriam Grossman's written submission regarding female reproduction. Findlay: "Can trans men breastfeed?" Bauer: "Yes." >

Findlay asks about gender fluidity: "Is there an open-ended number of gender identities?" Bauer: "It's not an infinite number. But people have individual ways of expressing gender." >

Findlay continues interrogating Dr. Grossman's written submission. Findlay: "Is sex distinct from gender?" Bauer: "Yes." Now turning to Grossman's comments on Dr. John Money, inventor of "gender identity" and the case of Bruce Reimer. >

Findlay reads the tragic story of the failed experiment on the young boy and his family. Findlay: "Is this story similar to someone born with DSD?" Bauer: "No, this was an accident not a condition." Findlay: "How does this story impact your work?" Bauer: "Boy was not trans." >

Bauer: "Kid maintained an internal gender identity. Consistency of gender identity like trans." Findlay asks Q about gender-confused kids. Bauer: "I don't work with children." Mentions conversion therapy: "I don't believe CT is legal in Canada." (How can she not know for sure?) >

Bauer: "Money's work has been obsolete for a long time. It's irrelevant. The point was made. It didn't work." Grossman's statement: "His gender could not be separated from his sex. His Y chromosome had important effect." Bauer: "Case study of one individual. Can't extrapolate." >

Bauer discusses X and Y chromosomes: "Discovery of SRY gene a game changer. Testosterone has effects through the body, true. There's a lot of debate about whether there's a female or male brain." >

Grossman's submission: "Sex is objective and reality-based. There are two sexes. Gender is a vague idea." Bauer: "Sex is heterogenous, multi-dimensional. I'm not sure what 'reality-based' means." >

Bauer: "Gender identity is not vague but it is subjective. Understanding of self can change over time, culture and context. Labels can change depending on awareness of labels." >

Bauer agrees that sex is important to acknowledge in research. "We say every cell is sexed, every body is gendered." >

Grossman's statement outlines the medical implications of sex in disease and treatment. Bauer: "Grossman's reference is correct but she's over-attributing it." Goes on to conflate sex and gender identity. >

Discussion of sex-related differences and influences in medicine. Bauer tries to get around it by saying "different dimensions of sex." >

Findlay calls attention to books on sex-differences and genes, quoting: "Every cell in the body is either male or female. Different approaches to males and females required." Bauer tries to discredit by saying "just commentary, not study." >

Findlay reads quotes from books on genetics: "Biological sex affects all systems of the body." Bauer: "Hard to know where they're coming from re: context. Doesn't speak to relationship between sex and gender. Maybe not even experts quoted." >

Bauer again uses her mantra "different dimensions of sex" but agrees biological sex is important in medical diagnosis and treatment. >

Bauer: "I agree sex is important and clinicians need to be aware of it in providing care."

Now on break, returning at 11: 20 Pacific. >

Back from break. Discussion of borderline personality disorder and gender confusion. Bauer: "No evidence of BPD more prevalent among trans." >

Bauer: "Very strong evidence of more depression and anxiety among trans. No evidence of correlation of autism with trans." >

From Grossman's written submission: "Dangerous to conflate sex with gender w/r/t vulnerable populations." Again Bauer relies on mantra "dimensions of sex". >

Findlay: "Give me example of dimensions of sex." Bauer rattles off bizarre list: menopausal women, organ status (hysterectomy), men being treated for prostate cancer, placenta ("it's a temporary organ that is sexed.") "Many changes over the life course." >

Grossman's statement: "identity confusion results from people being told if they change their appearance, they can change their sex." Bauer: "That's gender expression. It's a sociological and legal term." >

Findlay: "In context of clinical care if the word 'sex is used, is that likely to cause harm?" Bauer: "Yes. Words 'male' and 'female' cause confusion. They are stuck thinking, 'What are they trying to ask?'" (What the hell?!) >

Findlay: "What is best approach?" Bauer: "Ask for specific information. Do they have a uterus? Have they gone through menopause?" >

Bauer pretzels herself trying to explain why asking someone basic information like "male or female" is in not advisable. "For example, a lot of cisgender women are tested for pregnancy when they can't get pregnant." >

Bauer: "Opening up language allows patients to self-describe and disclose more. Both cis and trans people need to be referred to as they prefer." >

Findlay reads Grossman's statement questioning use of gender neutral terms like "chest" instead of "breasts". Bauer: "These are just suggestions for healthcare providers. Some patients don't like 'vagina', some don't like 'front hole.'" (But what about public health messaging?) >

Grossman statement: "Removing sex-specific terms won't improve patient care. It's just meant to advance ideological goals." Bauer: "I don't agree. Not the goal." >

Grossman statement: "Current gender ideology is even more radical that Money's." Bauer: "I disagree." Lisa Bildy, counsel for Amy, objects: "Bauer already stated not entirely familiar with Money's work." >

Now Findlay is asking about undescended testicles. (Really? How much more of this do we have to endure?) >

From Grossman's submission: "Gender identity is an attempt to de-sex the body." Bauer: "Disagree. Pregnancy and lactation are sexed processes. Nobody is forced to use the term 'chest feeding'." >

Grossman: "Gender ideology is a lie foisted on healthcare workers." Bauer disagrees by repeatedly referring to male and female, proving the binary. Then relies again on the "multi-dimensionality of sex." >

Bauer: "People often know about their gender at a young age. Others at puberty. Knowledge of their gender being different from expectations. Internet allowed people to connect around this." (Hm. Perhaps look into that, Dr. Bauer?") >

Findlay: "Are Hamm's views consistent with current scientific understanding?" Bauer: "No. As I outlined in my assessment of @cawsbar's position statement."
(Read @_CryMiaRiver's reporting on that here: thepostmillennial.com/expert-claims-…)

Now on 1-hour lunch break. More then... >

Back from lunch. Findlay is entering into evidence a document which hadn't been submitted during discovery. Lisa Bildy doesn't object but wants it noted. >

Findlay: "If you were instructing someone into research on harms to trans and NB, what would you advise?" Bauer: "Exclusion from housing, work, services. Violence. Effects of transphobia, exclusion, they don't exist, aren't normal. Misgendering." Repeats several over and over. >

Findlay: "How do you establish whether something is harmful?" Bauer: "For individuals, in the absence of an event, would harm have happened? Hard to determine. So we use population-based observation to determine frequency thus causation." >

Findlay: "How does UK research differ from Canadian?" Bauer: "Depends on topic." Findlay moves on. >

Findlay: "Describe how StatsCan refers to sex and gender." Bauer: "Sex refers to a set of biological attributes, usually male and female. Gender refers to the sociological categories of women, men, boys, girls, others." >

Bauer: "StatsCan in 2018 introduced new standards in response to complaints. Used in voluntary surveys and 2021 census. Now able to identify trans and NB. What is sex assigned at birth and what is your gender?" >

Findlay: "Does it track changes in frequency of teens IDing as trans or NB?" Bauer: "Too soon to tell." Findlay: "Has number of minor trans 'exploded'? Is that accurate description?" Bauer: "In clinic population 10 yrs ago hardly any, now more. Wouldn't call it an explosion." >

Findlay: "Why the increase in trans?" Bauer: "Being able to identify at younger ages. Connecting to trans info at younger ages. Also more aware of treatment options and expansion of options." (Ka-ching!)

End of Findlay's questioning of Bauer on direct. >

Now Michael Seaborn (he/him), counsel for BCCNM, is arguing technicalities re: timing of submissions. >

Seaborn now objecting to materials submitted by Amy's counsel which are internationally derived. "Each country has its own laws and policies. We should only accept Canadian evidence." (Uh, would any other research area be limited to Canadian-derived material?) >

Bildy: "WPATH actually sets international standards. There's a lot of international collaboration. Bauer herself referred to them. My job as counsel for respondent is to identify information that the college's expert isn't aware of." >

Bildy arguing procedure: "No requirement to disclose documents to be used on cross-examination." >

Bildy: "Our new documents for cross are documents Bauer is already familiar with: own writings, and WPATH, of which she sits on the board. Also, newly published documents which are highly relevant. I must show her opinion is a viewpoint, other experts take differing stances." >

Back from break. Chair Edna McLellan reads ruling on College's counsel Seaborn's (he/him) objection to Amy's additional submissions tendered on Friday. They will allow the submission in the interest of fairness. (Good.) >

Today's proceedings are adjourned. Tomorrow Lisa Bildy will start her cross-examination of Greta Bauer at 10 am Pacific. /