Thread by @esme_saysno

#IStandWithAmyHamm

Day 6 of the disciplinary hearing of @preta_6 by the BC College of Nurses and Midwives is now underway. I'll do my best to capture it again today. Lisa Bildy will now being her cross-examination of Dr. Greta Bauer, witness for the College. >

Bildy starts with an examination of Bauer's report to the College, specifically the terminology used. Bildy: "Have you coined any of these terms?" Bauer: "I don't believe so." Bildy: "How does 'agender' different from 'non-binary'?" Bauer: "Not subscribing to gender." >

Bildy: "Just trying to understand. Are they acknowledging they understand there's gender identity?" Barbara Findlay tries to object. Bauer: "It's one identity that someone might hold." Bildy: "Is non-binary different?" Bauer: "It's a broader identity that includes agender." >

Bildy: "Is non-binary trans?" Bauer: "Trans is the umbrella term." Bildy asks Bauer to explain "trans man", "trans woman," "trans masculine," trans feminine," etc. >

Bildy: "Is 2-spirit the same as non-binary?" Bauer: "No. It's a group term for the range of Indigenous identities. Can also be about ceremonial role." >

Bildy asks Bauer to explain her definition of "transphobia", specifically "phobia". Bauer: "Phobia used as a popular term, differs from clinical term." Bildy asks about "systemic" used in def. Bauer cites "structural cisnormativity". Bildy: "Is that transphobic?" Bauer: "Yes.">

Bildy: "Would it surprise you to learn some trans individuals are against self-ID?" Bauer: "Not aware. Large group, so possible." Bildy: "So you don't speak for all trans people." Bauer: "We look at net effect on a large group of people." Bildy: "From groups you canvass." >

Bildy: "Do you know what TERF means?" Bauer: "Yes, an expression in popular discourse, Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist." Bildy: "Is that a slur?" Bauer: "I'm not active on social media, so don't know." >

Bildy asks about "internal sense of self" w/r/t gender identity: "Man, woman, both, neither. Neither? What else is there? Another species?" Bauer: "No. Trying to be broad in definition." >

Bildy asks about Bauer's use of "knowing" vs "feeling" in gender identity definition. Bauer: "Feelings can be fleeting. Knowing is a deeper concept." Bildy: "So how does fluidity fit in?" Bauer: "Ranges of feelings and reasons, contexts." >

Bildy: "Some people say gender identities are based in sex role stereotypes. Agree or disagree?" Bauer: "Disagree." Bildy: "Do stereotypes apply at all?" Bauer: "Gender expectations can lead people to question their fit." >

Bildy provides a definition of the word "wrongthink" as she will rely on it: "Thoughts and expressions which go against the cultural orthodoxy of the day." She defines "groupthink" as "fear of being called out for wrongthink that causes people not to question majority views." >

Bildy: "Can we agree to these terms?" Bauer: "I've written them down." Bildy: "Can science be properly done in an environment where 'groupthink' makes people afraid?" Bauer: "Not when it's extreme." >

Bildy: "Definition of woman as 'adult human female' is a long-term accepted definition. Agree?" Bauer: "Yes and no. Second wave feminism differentiated between woman and female. I am not an expert in the meaning of the word woman going back into history." (Wow.) >

Bauer: "In science 'woman' used for gender, 'female' denotes sex." Bildy: "When did people in academia start to believe that?" Bauer: "In Canadian literature, started in the early 2000s." >

Bildy: "In using this language, does the average person understand this gender vs sex distinction?" Findlay objects. Moving on. Bildy: "Do you agree that people in academia should expect the general population to use academic terms?" Bauer: "No." >

Bildy: "Would you think that a woman would feel disrespected if body parts were used to describe her identity?" Bauer: "Says in BC guide to use words the patient wants." Bildy: "But it's not been optional and there are consequences for not using it. Would you agree?" >

Bauer: "Important to avoid causing harm." Bildy: "Would you agree that it's important not to compel speech?" Findlay objects. Back and forth on "prescriptive vs descriptive" in the BC Language Guide. Bauer: "Is compelled speech a legal term?" >

Bildy: "Okay, leaving out law, do you believe that healthcare workers should be required to use the language of the BC Language Guide on threat of discipline?" Findlay objects. Bildy: "Using a hypothetical to demonstrate that it's not flexible." >

Bauer: "Need to start with gender neutral language until you know for sure the identity." Bildy: "So that is prescriptive?" Bauer: "Yes." >

Bildy: "Would you be concerned with individuals who don't agree with gender ideology losing faith in medical professionals and avoiding treatment?" Bauer: "I disagree. Guidelines are flexible." Bildy: "But the language is becoming more prescriptive." Bauer: "Seen no evidence." >

Bildy asks Bauer to opine on fairness of using "uterus-haver" to describe women but not "prostate-haver" to define men in public health messaging. Bauer: "I'm not an expert in public health messaging but most of it concerns reproductive health." >

Bildy: "If @jk_rowling defines woman as 'adult human female' is that wrong to do that?" Bauer: "That's her definition." Bildy: "If that's the definition, is it trans-exclusionary?" Bauer: "I differentiate between individual and institutional use of words. Depends on power." >

Bildy: "You agree that females are individuals who do or did or will or would but for genetic anomalies produce eggs?" Bauer: "When looking at research, we do not generalize." Bildy: "Need to pin down what 'male' & 'female' are." Findlay objects: "Outside of Bauer's expertise." >

Bildy: "We're here because Hamm is being disciplined for using words. We need to be able to communicate." Moves on. Bildy reads from scholarly paper relied on re: language in maternal care. Examines negative consequences of "Bodies with vaginas" used on cover of Lancet. >

Bildy: "Familiar with Lancet article?" Bauer: "No." Bildy: "Familiar with this language trend?" Bauer: "I focus on trans language." Bildy reads from paper, asks: "Two types of gamete production, agree?" Bauer: "No, three. Egg, sperm, and not able to produce." >

Bildy reads more from paper: gender identity definition/ concept; post-modern queer theory posits both sex and gender are socially constructed and gender is more important of the two. Bauer: "I haven't read queer theory, not an expert." >

Bildy: "Do you believe gender is more important than sex?" Bauer: "Equally important." Bildy: "Are you familiar with words like 'birther' instead of 'mother', etc.?" Bauer: "Yes, but have not seen them used widely. Seen in media." >

Bildy: "Are you more comfortable with additive language?" Bauer: "Yes, to be more inclusive." Bildy reads more from paper: "De-sexing language is dehumanizing, confusing, etc. Are these reasonable concerns?" Bauer: "Yes." >

Bildy: "Do you think plain language in healthcare is important?" Bauer: "Yes, so people can understand." Bildy reads more: "Referring to 'people' rather than by sex where relevant distorts stats, etc. Agree?" Bauer: "Not necessarily." Launches into stats example. >

Bildy reads again from paper identifying areas of concern: "Agree more research into harms of de-sexed language is necessary?" Findlay objects: "Bauer is not an expert in this area." Bildy re-frames: "Downstream effects of language change?" Bauer: "My concern is inclusivity." >

Bauer: "I don't think it's a widespread issue but would have to study." Bildy reads how trans people are harmed as a result of not having accurate sex makers. Findlay objects: "Are these Canadian incidents?" Bildy: "International trend." Findlay: "Only Cdn incidents relevant." >

Bauer: "I can actually speak to this. Medical records are different from language/communication. From Cdn perspective, in healthcare we need both sex and gender markers. Move is to include more detailed info in medical records." >

Bildy: "Would you agree that there are downstream negative effects on women when using de-sexed language?" Bauer: "Yes, but they are remediable." Bildy: Is it important to be able to discuss these concerns?" Bauer: "Yes." >

Bildy moves to next line of Qs: writings of Kathleen Stock: "Have you read Stock's book 'Material Girls'?" Bauer: "No." Bildy reads from Stock's submission examining Hamm's statements, eg., "Men cannot be women, lesbians do not have penises," etc. >

Bildy: "Stock asserts that these are not transphobic statements. Do you agree?" Bauer: "Depends if one person says them or they're used repeatedly." >

Bildy reads again from Stock's submission citing Egale. "Do you agree that refusal to accept or prioritize gender identity ideology is in itself transphobic?" Bauer: "Depends on context." (Back and forth. Bauer plays dumb.) Bildy moves on. >

Bildy again reads from Stock's submission re: nature of transphobia by Egale. "Do you agree that a sweeping definition of transphobia makes it difficult to operate in society?" Findlay objects to "sweeping". Bauer: "Not familiar with Egale's terms. Context overall important." >

Bauer: "As a researcher I examined Hamm's tweets in the context of a person who is involved in the 'gender wars.' I tied that into broader picture of what we see as transphobia." >

Bildy continues with Stock's submission examining female oppression on the basis of sex and its relevance. "Do you agree with Stock that women have distinct experiences from men due to sexed bodies?" Bauer: "Agree that there are a lot of things that happen as result of sex." >

Bildy reads Stock's submission concerning sexual orientation. "Do you agree sex is important there?" Bauer: "No. Sexual orientation is more involved than genitalia." Bildy: "Have you heard phrase 'Cotton Ceiling'?" Bauer: "Yes. I don't agree with term." Then brings in race. 😱>

Bildy: "Is it transphobic to desire certain people with certain body parts?" Bauer: "No." Bildy reads again from Stock re: sexual violence & opp. for males to get into women's spaces. Bauer: "In Canada, policies governed by human rights law not language." (Completely deflects!) >

Bildy: "You understand gender self-ID is used on the ground in Canada?" Bauer: "Not familiar with how law is used." (Really?!) Bildy moves on to Stock's submission re: problems with collecting data, eg., crime: "Do you know if that's how crime stats are being recorded?" >

Bildy: "Would you agree if StatsCan collected crime data not based on sex, that would be a problem?" Bauer: "Do you mean sex assigned at birth?" Bildy: "Okay, if that's the terminology you want to use." (Sorry, lost battery, didn't get Bauer's answer.) >

Hearing has broken for lunch. Back in an hour with more... >

Back from lunch. Bildy continues with Stock's report: importance of sex-based language, attempts to downplay binary, use of "intersex" to argue for non-binary, humans are sexually dimorphic: "How do you feel about all that?" Bauer: "Disagree that DSDs are over-estimated." >

Bauer: "Not arguing that there's no male and female. Using them as adjectives is more useful." (Adjectives!) Findlay objects to Bildy's reading of long passages. Bildy: "What in Stock's report do you agree with?" Bauer: "I disagree with rigid boundaries." >

Okay, wow. This is hard to encapsulate because it's just so crazy. Bauer tries to argue that females aren't people with a uterus because some females have been hysterectomized. (?!) >

Bildy: "Is it discriminatory to say that there are two sexes?" Bauer: "No, but we have to differentiate between casual use and research definitions." Bildy: "But didn't you agree that plain language is desirable in clinical settings?" >

Bauer: "Research evidence shows trends that certain types of communications cause harm in trans people." Bildy reads from Stock's report: "Agree with Stock's assertion that we should be able to discuss issues openly?" Bauer: "Yes." >

Bildy: "You agree that a valid scientific construct must be objectively measurable and falsifiable?" Bauer: "We talk about measurement, not constructs." Bildy: "There's no objective evidence that gender identity exists, correct?" Bauer: "We use self-reported data all the time." >

Bildy: "There's no way to objectively measure someone's gender identity, correct?" Bauer: "Correct." Bildy: "You said every has a gender identity, right?" Bauer: "Yes." Bildy: "If a religious person said they have a soul, I don't have to believe it, right? Bauer: "Yes." >

Bauer: "I don't understand where you're going." Bildy: "If a nurse doesn't believe in souls, she wouldn't be considered a danger to Catholics, right?" Bauer: "Right." Bildy: "Is 'dimensions of sex & gender' a term you coined?" Bauer: "No. Multi-dimensionality is a common term." >

Bildy asks about Bauer's multi-dimensionality of sex and gender work. Bauer explains it's a tool for researchers to make sense of data. >

Bildy: "Would agree that prior to 2nd wave feminists the words sex and gender were conflated?" Findlay objects. Bildy moves on: "Is gender on a spectrum?" Bauer: "No, I don't conceptualize it on a spectrum." >

Bildy: "You said you aren't familiar with queer theory, but what about post-modernist?" Bauer: "Not familiar." Bildy: "Can you describe your work in intersectionality in quantitative data?" Bauer explains intersection of sex and race in social outcomes, how they track data. >

In-depth back & forth on data analysis, grouping, how to arrive at accurate results. Bildy: "Could ideology affect the data?" Bauer: "Start with question. Decision of what to measure. Try to make as few assumptions as possible." Bildy: "You're applying a lens to look at data?" >

Bauer: "I use what we call 'theoretical frameworks'." Bildy moves on: "Are transwomen female?" Bauer: "Depends. It's complex." Launches into gonadectomy, yadda yadda. >

Bildy: "You've said transwomen are women. So you're conflating sex with gender, right?" Bauer: "...dimensions of sex..." (Everybody drink!) >

Bildy: "Don't people, despite their having hysterectomies or other conditions, always understand who's male and who's female?" Findlay: "You lost me." 😂 Bauer: "People know based on gender presentation." (Uh, okay.) >

Bildy: "But there are two sexes, right?" Bauer: "I know there are social categories. But those are adjectives, not scientific. Hormones have a large effect throughout the body." Bildy: "We're here because of language and people taking offense. No third sex, right?" >

Findlay objects: "Asked and answered." Bildy: "Does saying there are two sexes deny trans existence?" Bauer: "...dimensions of sex..." (Everybody drink!) >

Findley: "Could someone not change their appearance and still be considered trans?" Bauer: "Trans is inner knowing." Findley: "Is it your opinion that trans people not be pressured to medically transition?" Bauer: "Yes." >

CORRECTION: Previous tweet should be Bildy: "Could someone not change their appearance and still be considered trans?" >

Bildy moves on to Dr. Miriam Grossman's written submission, nature of her practice as clinical psychiatrist. Discussion of how patients are referred to specialists; differences between US and Canada. Moving on. >

Bildy: "In Grossman's report she says communication in clinical settings must be clear. Yesterday you said 'male or female' was a confusing Q to survey participants. Is that right?" Bauer: "Yes." Bildy: "Would you agree the conflation of sex and gender made it confusing?" >

Bildy: "You agree language must be clear and the word 'sex' must be clearly defined?" Bauer deflects again, goes on about survey design theory. Bildy: "Are others working to conflate sex & gender, i.e., queer theorists?" Findlay objects: "Bauer not familiar with queer theory." >

Now a 15-minute break. Back soon... >

Back and Bildy turns to Bauer's report, bathroom avoidance study by Trans Pulse: "Do you know the breakdown of the natal sex of the participants?" Bauer: "Not broken down by sex assigned at birth." Bildy: "Do you have that data?" Bauer: "Not provided by Trans Pulse." >

Bildy: "Would safety have been a reason for avoidance?" Bauer: "Possibly." Discussion of data: higher avoidance in youth age group than older group. Bildy: "Is that because more natal females in younger group?" >

Bauer: "No numbers." Bildy: "Would you agree that trans bio females might avoid men's washrooms more than trans bio males?" Bauer: "Could be." Bildy: "Similarly, would women be fearful of males in their washrooms?" Bauer: "True, they could be scared but I haven't seen studies." >

Bildy: "You testified that trans ID males would feel 'profoundly unsafe' in male shelters. Do you remember?" Bauer takes moment to read transcript: "Yes." Bildy: "You agree that men are more aggressive?" Bauer: "Scarier for trans people because don't want to be outed." >

Bildy: "You said we shouldn't generalize that trans women being a risk to 'cis' women. So we shouldn't generalize about trans-ID males but we can about natal males?" Bauer: "We shouldn't generalize trans as predators." >

Bildy: "If you're encountered by a man in a dark parking lot, do you know if they're a predator or not?" Bauer: "I would be alarmed at anyone following me." >

Bildy, going back to first day of Bauer's testimony re: caWsbar statement: "Asked by Findlay if 'cis" men were being allowed into women's spaces. But you understand caWsbar were referring to trans ID males." Bauer: "I answered to the best of my ability." >

Bildy: "Is there any evidence that trans women as a statistical group lose their propensity for violence once they declare they are women?" Bauer: "I don't have any evidence. Nothing in the literature." >

Bildy: "Is it possible that the increase in opposition to women's washrooms being used by trans people coincides with the rise of gender self-ID laws?" Bauer: "Study didn't consider that. I don't know where that study was from." (Oh, so they used a non-Canadian study? Hm.) >

Findlay objects. Bildy moves on: "You said on Monday that it sounded frivolous that men could declare they're women and it could be so. Then you talked about identity markers." Bauer: "If my response was not relevant, then the panel can determine that." >

Bauer: "It sounded like men could throw up their hands one day and say they were women." Bildy: "Do you understand that someone could do that?" Bauer: "What do you mean?" Bildy: "Do you understand that males could enter women's spaces through declaration?" >

Bauer: "I understand different facilities have different safety policies." Bildy wants to enter into evidence a Star article reporting on an incident. Findlay objects to use of popular media: "Does not meet standard of tribunals. Expertise not demonstrated." >

Bildy: "Witness made a statement and I intend to demonstrate falsity of her statement as is done in cross-examination." Panel considering submissions, 5 min- break. >

Back. Star article not allowed. Bildy: "Would it objectionable for a Muslim woman to refuse to be in the same room as a trans woman?" Bauer: "Probably not. I haven't given it any thought." >

Bildy moves to Linda Blade's report: "You said there wasn't any evidence of harms to women and girls in sport." Bauer: "We're doing a study on the harms of exclusion from sports." Findlay objects to Bildy's use of word "men" when referring to trans ID males. >

Bildy: "Would you ever deny someone's 'lived experience'?" Bauer: "Not sure what you mean by deny?" Bildy: "Dr. Blade has a PhD, which is also what you have, right?" Bauer: "In different fields." Bildy: But you don't imply your field is superior?" Bauer: "No." >

Bildy reads from Blade's report on the male sport advantage: "Do you object to anything in that statement?" Bauer: "It seems to apply to elite sports, not children. As for physiological advantage, hormones are important." >

Bildy reads more from Blade's report outlining physical male advantage throughout lifecycle. Bauer: "Hormones most important." Bildy: "Are you concerned about physical harms to women?" Bauer again focuses on elite level, regulatory bodies determining own policies. >

Bauer: "Unfairly focusing on certain sports but males don't have advantage in gymnastics. And we don't play sports with our genitals." (Sounds like she's been listening to a particular cyclist. 😂)
Cross-examination of Bauer is done for today. >

Bildy addresses the College's attempt to have Hamm's witness disqualified. Proposes it be argued tomorrow afternoon. If witness disallowed, Hamm would like to call another witness who's on standby. Karen Bastow will argue for the fitness of the witness. Discussing procedure now.>

College's counsel Michael Seaborn (he/him) wants to carry over witness issue to January. Karen Bastow explains College's objection - two of the witnesses are not Canadian: "It was very hard to find a Cdn medical professional because they were afraid of losing their license." >

Panel would like College's witness submission Nov 3 and Hamm's response Nov 10. That concludes today's session. Phew! >