Thread by @dhadjowa

On Friday 28 October, the inquest into the death of Kumanjayi Walker sat on Arrernte Country with Claudia Campagnaro giving evidence.

Below, we share some key excerpts. You can find the full transcript here: justice.nt.gov.au/__data/assets/…

#JusticeForWalker

Counsel Assisting: Ms Campagnaro, can you see and hear me okay?

Campagnaro: Yes.

Q: Could you please state your full name for the court?

A: Claudia Campagnaro

#JusticeForWalker

Counsel Assisting: You were asked by police in the Northern Territory to participate in that interview because of a previous relationship that you had had with Constable Zachary Rolfe, is that right?

Campagnaro: That's correct.

#JusticeForWalker

Counsel Assisting: I will come to some more details about this but just to put it in context, you were in a romantic relationship with Constable Rolfe from around January/February 2018 through to the end of 2018, is that right?

Campagnaro: That's correct.

#JusticeForWalker

Counsel Assisting: For a period of time in that year you were engaged to him?

Campagnaro: Yes, I was.

CA: When was the last time that you saw him?

Campagnaro: September or October 2018. I can't be a 100% certain.

#JusticeForWalker

Q: On 9 Nov 2019 you were not living in the NT, is that right?

A: No, I wasn't.

Q: Do you remember now how you first heard that there had been a shooting death in Yuendumu?

A: I think maybe I had been told by a fellow officer that I used to speak to or I'd seen it on the news

Q: It was some time then before you were interviewed and by the time you were being interviewed in Aug 2020 Zach Rolfe had been charged with murder & manslaughter. Were you keen to give an interview to NT Police about him?

A: No, I wasn't....

Q: Now, at the time, had you ever been interviewed by police in relation to any incident?

A: No, I had not.

Q: When you sat down with the interviewers to talk to them, how were you feeling?

A: Incredibly intimidated.

Q: So I think you said you came to the Northern Territory just a little bit before you started your training as a police officer?

A: Yes.

Q: What year was it?

A: 2017.

Q: What brought you to the Northern Territory?

A: It was just something different to do.

#JusticeForWalker

Q: So am I right that from December 2017 until the following October or November 2018, you were a young police officer in Alice Springs?

A: Yes, I was.

Q: Were you a probationary Constable for the whole time?

A: Yes, I was.

#JusticeForWalker

Q: I’m going to ask you some questions about meeting Zach Rolfe. You met him, when you were a police officer in Alice Springs and he was working as an officer...so maybe 12 months or so, he’d already been in Alice Springs working as an officer. Correct?

A: Yes, I think so, yep.

Q: Okay. Before you met Zach, when you arrived at the station, do you recall finding out about his reputation?

A: No, not that I can recall.

Q: Did you meet him soon after you arrived in Alice Springs?

A: Yes, I believe I met him in December.

#JusticeForWalker

Q: He then got your number and he texted you to say thanks for the job?

A: Yes.

Q: Then he heard through a friend that you were having some issues with your dog crying at night, so he offered to look after your dog for a while when you were on shifts?

A: Yes, that’s right.

Q: It was obvious to you at that time that he might be keen to go on a date?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. Did that all happen prior to your interviewing Malcolm Ryder?

A: I actually can’t recall.

Q: On 11 Jan 18, Malcolm Ryder was arrested by a number of police officers, Cst Lorraine(?), Cst Geranios(?), Cst Rolfe and Cst Zendelli(?). Did you know, bearing in mind you hadn’t long been in Alice Springs, did you know any of those people before that time?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: You’d only really just met them. Is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: Mr Ryder was interviewed by yourself and another officer who you refer to a “Fish”?

A: Fisher, yes.

Counsel Assisting: So, this is what you say at page 8 of your interview. You say, “There was this one job where I had to interview someone that had been placed under arrest, Malcolm Ryder, & I had to interview him. I remember not liking Zach...

1/2

CA cont: because Malcolm Ryder had this massive gash above his head...So, that was another interaction. I didn’t actually like him in the beginning. I thought he just loved himself and I hated that Malcolm Ryder thing...that’s how I remember his name.”?

A: That is correct.

2/2

Q: Malcolm Ryder, had an injury above his right eye following an arrest from that group of 4...He required 10 stitches above his right eye & 3 stitches above his left eye. There was an attempt by yourself & Officer Fisher to interview him. Is that right?

A: That is correct.

CA: When Mr Ryder was speaking with you and Officer Fisher, did he complain about the arrest?

Campagnaro: Yes, he did, over and over again.

CA: What sort of things did he say?

Campagnaro: First of all, he said that the officer “had the devil in his eyes”

#JusticeForWalker

Counsel Assisting: Did you have any discussions with your senior officer, at that time...about whether or not you should escalate your concerns, that is, make a complaint, on behalf of the interviewee?

Campagnaro: No.

#JusticeForWalker

Q: At some stage you did look at that body-worn video, is that right?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Someone will correct me if I am wrong, it was only 1 of the officers, Brett Geranios who turned on his body-worn video. How did you come to look at it?

A: Someone would have shown me.

Q: I just want to take you to some conversations you had with Zach Rolfe about that incident?

A: Yes.

Q: When do you recall was the first time that you spoke to Zach about what had happened?

A: January 11th, the day that it actually happened.

Counsel Assisting: What did Zach say to you about what had happened?

Campagnaro: He just told me that everyone had been sprayed with OC spray and that Ryder had a gash on his head.

#JusticeForWalker

Q: When was the next time that you spoke to Zach about Mr Ryder?

A: I'd say some point after we'd started dating.

Q: ...on 11 Jan you spoke to Zach before you interviewed Mr Ryder. Was there any other conversation with Zach on that day about it?

A: Not that I can recall, no.

Counsel Assisting: Do you remember roughly how long into your relationship he told you something else about the Ryder incident?

Campagnaro: I cannot give you specifics. It was just after we had started dating.

#JusticeForWalker

CA: ...Mr Ryder told you that he hadn't done anything wrong when he got injur[ed]. Some time later you had a convo w Zach. What did he tell you?

Campagnaro: He told me that a detective had scratched him so that in his use of force doc he could say that's why he had used force

Q: What did Zach say to you about advice he’d been given about his body-worn?

A: He told me that he’d been asked to put it on by Sergeant Vicary and that he just didn’t want to.

Q: Did he say why he didn’t want to?

A: He didn’t want people to see what he was doing

“The Malcolm Ryder case, I don’t think he had his body-worn on.” This is page 41. “I recall him saying that they – thankfully it wasn’t on, so they couldn’t see what he had done.”

CA: Is that something that Zach said to you about Mr Ryder’s case?

Campagnaro: That is correct.

Counsel Assisting: Did Zach tell you what he had actually done that he wanted not to be on camera?

Campagnaro: He’d punched him in the head while he was on the ground.

#JusticeForWalker

CA: I’ll...ask you something about attitudes generally in Alice Springs. You were young, so you’re 24, and you’re a probationary constable. Do you recall hearing other police in Alice Springs station, use derogatory terms about Aboriginal people?

Campagnaro: Yes, I do.

CA: You’ve heard in this inquest some of the terms that have come out. I’ll just ask you as an open question. In the police station, what sort of derogatory terms would you hear used to describe Aboriginal people?

Campagnaro: C**ns, k*nga, n*****, just terms like that.

CA: Did you hear Zach use language like that?

Campagnaro: Yes, I did.

Q: Did you hear him use language like that in the police station?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Did you hear sergeants use that sort of language?

A: Yes, I did.

#JusticeForWalker

CA: I’ve asked you about that incident with Mr Ryder. Were there any other times...when you were there for your year, where you heard of police officers covering up for each other, for use of excessive force?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Did any of those involve Zach?

A: Yes, they did.

CA: Can you remember any other specific incident, that involved Zach?

Campagnaro: I remember one involving a river. So the Todd River, where he had punched someone in the river with another officer called Barclay(?), and yeah, that’s the specific one that I can think of.

CA: You explain in your interview, [Rolfe] was interested to get into the SAS?

Campagnaro: Yes, he was.

CA: Did he tell you why he wanted to get into the SAS?

Campagnaro: He wanted to be paid to go out and shoot people.

#JusticeForWalker

CA: When you tell the interviewers about this, you say:

“He didn’t like being in the NT Police...he just wanted to get into the SAS, because basically they go away for long periods of time, get paid a lot of money, & go out and kill people. They go out on missions.”

CA: And you were asked, “So tell me about this, you’ve mentioned it 2 or 3 times now, about that they go out and kill people. Has there ever been, or can you describe any conversation you had with Zach, that might touch on that sort of thing?”

#JusticeForWalker

CA: And you say: “Yeah, there’s a few conversations. It’s not necessarily related to that, about going and killing people. Zach said on several occasions to me, and probably other people too, that he would like to shoot someone. Then he can go on a paid holiday...

1/2

CA cont: because obviously when you shoot someone, you go under investigation, like what is happening now. And you go on a paid holiday.”

In relation to what Zach said, when he said: “I’d like to shoot someone so I can go on a paid holiday.” What tone did he say that in?

2/2

Campagnaro: So this was toward the end of our relationship, because I actually remember saying to him, “No that’s the kind of holiday that I want to go on.” And I remember feeling, at that time, uncomfortable him saying that.

#JusticeForWalker

CA: In the interview, you’re specifically asked by Officer Pennuto: “I want to clarify, I’m going to have to ask a direct question to clarify this. So are you telling us, that Zach Rolfe told you that he wanted to be in a position, he wanted to shoot someone?” And you say, “Yes.”

CA: You have said there, that Zach didn’t care about or like any of the Indigenous people there. You mean there, in Alice Springs, is that right?

Campagnaro: That’s correct.

#JusticeForWalker

CA: what did he say to give you that understanding?

Campagnaro: I mean, he definitely told me that working in Alice Springs was a joke. And he just – yeah, would use derogatory terms when referring to Indigenous people.

#JusticeForWalker

CA: Zach actually, specifically told you, Ms Campagnaro, that unjustified use of force was swept under the carpet?

Campagnaro: Yes he did. He told me that Lee Bauwens, & Alistair Gall, had on several occasions, dealt with his, you know, reports, and unjustified forces, for him

CA: When he was telling you that, did he say that they had dealt with his use of force, or his unjustified use of force? That is, did he give you the impression that the force he used was not justified, and they just got rid of it?

Campagnaro: Yes, so – yes. That’s correct.

CA: You explain in your statement about a bad dream where you woke up one night & he had his hands around your neck, & he told you that he’d been having a nightmare?

A: Yes, that's correct

CA: You accepted that was a genuine explanation from him at that time?

A: Yes, I did

CA: Do you feel like you became desensitised to people – seeing Aboriginal people suffering?

A: I’m sure that I did by the end of it, yeah.

CA: Was there anything in your training that helped you to understand that at the time?

A: Not really, no.

#JusticeForWalker

Counsel Assisting: you talk about hearing that Zach had been the one involved in Kumanjayi’s death & you say:

“I wasn’t really surprised that it was him. If it was going to be anyone that was involved in that kind of thing, it was going to be him.”

Why did you think that?

Campagnaro: Because of previous comments he’d made, you know, about the paid holiday, and just his attitude towards the job.

#JusticeForWalker

Mullins, Counsel for Brown Family: on reflection you committed to the relationship very heavily, very early?

Campagnaro: Yes.

Q: over that period of time you began to see some aspects of Constable Rolfe's behaviour that concerned you?

A: Yes

Q: One of those was the Ryder situation that you've described to counsel assisting?

A: Yes.

Q: Another was the way he spoke about Indigenous people, you didn't like that?

A: That's correct.

#JusticeForWalker

Counsel for NAAJA: You had said in evidence, Ms Campagnaro, that you didn't like what Mr Rolfe said about Aboriginal people, is that right?

Campagnaro: Yes, correct.

#JusticeForWalker

Q: I want to go to your statement. This is a convo that happened in front of your friend Chelsea. You said that Zach told her, "that the Indigenous people's heads are like rocks, like you can't break through them". Do you remember him saying that to your friend?

A: Yes, I do.

Counsel for NAAJA: I now want to talk about the support that Zach Rolfe got after the shooting. You were contacted by a lot of people, is that right?

Campagnaro: Yes, I was.

Q: In your statement when you were talking to police, you said they were very pro-Zach?

A: Yes, at the time, yes, it was all over the news.

Q: So people reaching out to you were very much supportive of Zach Rolfe is that right?

A: Yes, they were.

Q: When you first started, Zach Rolfe had recently broken up with Jen Zendelli. Is that right?

A: That’s correct.

Q: He made out to you like she was crazy?

A: Yes, he did.

Q: Sergeant Lee Bauwens is a witness in this case?
A: Yes.
Q: Is he a sergeant who, in your memory was freely using these kinds of racist terms?
A: Yes. Yes, he was.
Q: What about Sergeant Paul Kirkby?
A: Yes, yes, he was.
Q: you're certain about that?
A: I'm definitely certain

Q: What about people who were closer to you in age and rank, like Mitch Hansen. Is he someone you remember speaking in this way?

A: Yes

Q: In your statement...I think you said that effectively your memory was that he hated Aboriginal people?

A: He did at that time, yes.

Q: is it fair to say that most people use that language freely and a few did not?

A: A lot of people use that language. I can’t say everyone used that language, but the majority.

#JusticeForWalker

Q: One of the names is James Kirstenfeldt, or Jimmy Kirstenfeldt?

A: Yes

Q: What would you say about his language?

A: I heard him speak racist very often

Q: All right. Shane McCormack, or Paddy McCormack, with an Irish accent?

A: No, not that I can recall.

#JusticeForWalker