Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good afternoon and welcome to DAY 2 of For Women Scotland (FWS) Ltd's application for a second Judicial Review Vs Scottish Government (SG), over the definition of 'woman'.
Due to start 2pm

Catch up with this morning here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/for-women-sc……

This morning, Ruth Crawford KC, counsel for SG concluded her submission to Judge Lady Haldane, and Jonathan Miller (MM) of EHRC, began his submission and will be continuing this afternoon.

Abbrevs

J: Judge Lady Haldane

Petitioner -
FWS: For Women Scotland

SM: Sindi Mules at Balfour + Manson solicitors for For Women Scotland

AN: Aidan O’Neill KC for For Women Scotland

Respondent -

RB or RC: Ruth Crawford, Respondent Barrister

SG: Scottish Government

SGLD: Scottish Government Legal Department

Other agent -

MM - Joanathan Mitchell for EHRC

Other:

EHRC: Equality Human Rights Committee
EN: Equality Network
LGBA: LGB Alliance
GG: Gibson Grey
FPFW: Fair Play for Women
EA: Equality Act 2010
GRC: Gender Recognition Certificate
GRA: Gender Reform Act
SDA: Sex Discrimination Act
PC: Protected Characteristic

JR: Judicial Review
Def: Definition
SO: Sexual Orientation
SSS: Single Sex Spaces:
GD: Gender Dysphoria
GR: Gender Reassignment
FM: Freddie Mconnell
TWAW: Trans Women Are Women
TW: Transwoman
TM: Transman
TIS: Trans Inclusive Spaces

We are back. Some discussion of technical issues w sound.

MM: If I as a man get a GRC and am living in my acquired gender, as a woman, and I am complaining of sexual harrassment, it is no good to say that I have rights to protection under GR, as that is not the issue

MM That is not the harassment I am facing. In that case, I do not see the point going forward of using this

MM: it is about real people, in real life situations. I have identified in my notes a number of other propositions

And my conclusion of this is that my lady should refuse the proposition, that is all I have to say.

J calling AN to reply.
J wants to say. that there is no automatic right to reply, but I have no objection to allowing a reply, if you have new matters to come to
AN: it should be half an hour, no more

AN: the first point is related to Section 9 of GRA which has been laid out as different to what was stated this morning.
We now have a v different approach, and the position, and there seems to be a lack of willing to investigate what that means

AN: they stated this morning that all ref to gender is the same as sex.

AN this morning was a substantial change in position if it is stated that this meaning of sex, man, woman, is changed in abortion act, which does not make sense that legal sex and biological sex are the same (section 9c)

AN : this means, in relation to EA and in relation to abortio, surrogacy, should be that you do not substitute legal sex for biological sex, but there is a cutting back from the idea that section 9

AN but they now accept that under EA s9, anything refers to protected characteristocs around preganancy that refers to women is biological women

when previously it was stated that legal and bio sex the same. so it was stated this morning - was the word used sensible - to not use the radical position stated earlier that bio sex is over written

J was it said earlier that the whole act was repealed?
AN - no, the whole of S9 is not repealed, but need to be clear on limitaions and meaning. Do not need to discuss disapplication of whole thing, I believ this can be done in common law

AN The EA contains one definition of woman and one def of man, so if sex is used in one part of the act, it means the same throughout, but according to scottish ministers, woman means one thing sometimes, ie bio woman, and something else in another, eg a male w GRC

The law needs to be interpreted in a coherent and consistent fashion. Not just for lawyers, but thos who have to implement the law

AN we hold that there should be one defininition, but what the resp are saying is that no, we have a pick & mix approach, but how is anyone supposed to uphold the law with this approach? so it is the abandonment of these principles

AN - we believe that a definition of biological in consistent and understood, but Scottish ministers are all over the place with their definitions. IT means one thing and then another.

AN they say this is a common sense approach, but one person's common sense is another's utter nonsense.

AN- that was S9, now S12, the other get out of jail free, eg parents groups, when the word mother is used, that S12 overrides S9,

AN it says that if a parent has changed gender, that does not affect the parent's status as the father or mother of that child. So if a person fathers a child and then gets a GRC, they are not that child's mother. And that makes sense

AN- this is the explanatory notes, and para43 says although a person as an acquired gender, that person retains the status of father or mother, maintaining position within the family

AN- there is a discongruence btwn what the GRA says and what the SMs say it says

AN - explanatory notes can go against what is on the original point in the act.

AN- finally, the counsel said that inds who applied for GRC said that persons inadvertently affected do not count. Presumably women looking for single sex spaces, or to be treated by someone of the same sex, or a refuge etc. do not count which may come as quite a surprise

AN in terms of assault, a women has a right to request to be examined by someone of the same sex. Is this a 9-1 same sex or 9-3 same sex? Do they have a right to request or guarantee that another biologoical woman would examine them?

AN- have the SMs made these decisions in a rush, without thinking through what it means for women?

AN- and finally finally - those who are often forgotten. the young bio women, oft w ADHD, autism, as seen at Tavi, what does the EHRC tell them? You can change sex, you will no longer suffer from the institutional discrimination of being a woman.

You are now a man with none of the structural discrimination, which may have been part of why she did not want to be a woman, it is gone. This is a pernicious lie.

Here we ignore the effects of a patriarchal society, which the EA is supposed to mitigate for, and we do a disservice to them by pretending that these disadvantages will go away

J- I will read all of these submissions, and read again. This is not a case in which a snap decision can or should be made. I will rise now and make my judgement when ready.
End of session.

@threadreaderapp please unroll